Question about single infusion, rinsing, recirculating..

[r8rphan]

Is a separate 'rinse' always required?

The reason I'm asking, is I was wondering about RIMS systems and why the boil kettle can't be used as part of the setup..

I'm wondering why you can't just recirculate the desired pre boil volume of water (plus that which is to be absorbed by the grain) through the mash for an hour, then raise the temp for an additional 15 minutes afterwards...

IOW, if you have 12-13G you need for the boil in your boil keggle, heat it, infuse it into the mash tun, recirculate it through the boil keggle and back into the mash tun, adding the make up for grain absorbtion, then let it continue to circulate for an hour at mash temp, finally raising it to the sparge temp for 15 mins or whatever, and then just pumping all the wort from the mash tun into the boil keggle.. isn't that the same thing?

Or must you do a rinse with clean heated water? If so, why?

 

[Phunhog]

Not sure if I quite follow you but...with your idea you are going to need a HUGE mash tun. I have a keggle MLT(15.5 gal) and there is no possible way to fit all of pre boil volume plus grain plus the amount of water that the grain absorbs. I typically do 11 gal batches. Now I don't know why you would want to recirc into your boil kettle? Why not recirc right back into your mashtun? Assuming you are using either a direct fire or electric element RIMS.
It sounds like what you are really talking about is "no sparge" brewing. Works well for a lot of people! Just realize that you will be using more grain to get the same amount since you won't be sparging. Sparging is used to "rinse" the grain of any residual sugars that might have been left behind when your mash tun was drained the first time.

 

[r8rphan]

I'm looking at setting up a 20G mash tun...

So clear water is needed to rinse?.. You can't use wort from the first infusion without reducing efficiency??

This actually makes some sense, and what I was afraid I'd hear...

Just how much clear water is needed to do this (percent wise)?

I guess a better question is: Is there a way to set up a 2 vessel system, that doesn't require first collecting the runnings into separate containers?

I'm currently using a two vessel system, but getting a but older... Hauling buckets full of wort up a step stool and into the boil kettle is getting old, and just creates that much more crap to clean...

Trying to make it easy, compact, quality, controlled and inexpensive as possible...

 

[DannPM]

You can sparge with wort if that is what you mean.

 

[r8rphan]

You can sparge with wort if that is what you mean.

That's basically what I'm talking about... Is the result the same as using clean water?

IOW, does recirculating 13G of water through 25lbs of grain at 154 degrees for an hour, then running that same 13G (now wort) for a few minutes @ 170 degrees, then draining it all out..

result in the same thing as...

mashing with 8 gallons @ 154 degrees for an hour, collecting it, and then rinsing with 5G (or 7G and boiling down) of 170 degree clean water? (not including the water absorbed the grain here)...

 

[mcaple1]

If you are saying that you wish to recirculate/mash with the entire preboil volume plus volume to make up for grain absorption, then you would be diluting your mash too much. You should stick around 1.5 qt/lb of grain during the mash, then rinse or recirculate with additional water or you can even use the wort plus additional water.

Perhaps I am just not following your steps here though.

 

[r8rphan]

If you are saying that you wish to recirculate/mash with the entire preboil volume plus volume to make up for grain absorption, then you would be diluting your mash too much.

That's what I was talking about.. and your answer makes sense..

You should stick around 1.5 qt/lb of grain during the mash, then rinse or recirculate with additional water or you can even use the wort plus additional water.

That's doable....

With what you said about diluting the mash in mind, here's the setup I'm thinking about...

So lets say I want a 12.5G breboil volume and I have 25lbs of grain... mash @154 for an hour...

So I would heat up 7.75G of water (approximately 1.25qt per lb), infuse the mash and recirculate it for an hour @ 154 degrees... The recirculation path is from the mash tun to be pumped into the Boil kettle, and back out to the mash tun... The PID monitors the temp out of the mash tun, and then heats the boil kettle to adjust accordingly...

After an hour, I add an additional 4.75 gallons of water to the boil kettle and an additional 3.1 gallons (or maybe a little more) to account for grain absorbtion, raise the temp to 170 degrees and recirculate for about 10-15 mins..

Then close the valve to prevent wort from going back into the mash tun...

Once the pre-boil level is reached in the kettle, start the boil....

Would such a system work and be as efficient (or at least close) as doing a clean water rinse?

 

[milldoggy]

I think what he is saying is to pull wort out of mash tun into the bk, then wort out of bk into mash. So the bk is holding wort that is being cycled through the mash tun. So the mash is at a 1.5 water/grist ratio, but is being washed with the entire volume.

 

[r8rphan]

I think what he is saying is to pull wort out of mash tun into the bk, then wort out of bk into mash. So the bk is holding wort that is being cycled through the mash tun. So the mash is at a 1.5 water/grist ratio, but is being washed with the entire volume.

So I would put the entire amount of water (mash, rinse, and grain absorb) into the BK, but just monitor the amount of water in the Mash tun so that it stays approximately 1.25 qts per pound?

Then recirculate/mash for an hour, raise the temp and rinse, and pump it all into the BK?

 

[milldoggy]

I was just trying to interpet what you were asking. I have never tried this, but sounds like an interesting experiment. If you have an electric bk, would be easy to maintain mash temp.

 

[r8rphan]

I was just trying to interpet what you were asking. I have never tried this, but sounds like an interesting experiment. If you have an electric bk, would be easy to maintain mash temp.

I have a gas BK, but wouldn't mind switching to electric.. as the gasses coming up the sides from the burner dry the crap out of my eyes... and I have to be careful how much I look into the kettle or otherwise lean over it... and then sometimes wind is an issue...

It's a simple and elegant solution, which makes me wonder why no one else is doing it... So I'm wondering if there is a reason in regards to the 'results' of the mash...

 

[Lost]

What you're contemplating is something like a Brutus build. Read about it here: http://www.alenuts.com/Alenuts/brutus20.html

The limitation of a Brutus build is that when rinsing with wort some residual sugar is left behind in the grains. As we all know, the grains contain a lot of water and that water will have a sugar content by volume equal to or greater than that of the wort. At lower gravity this is less of an issue because the wort is lower gravity and thus so too is the sugar rich liquid left behind in the mash/grain slop. Plus there are less grains so less sugar rich slop left behind. At higher gravities the losses in efficiency are much more severe (inefficiency becomes greater as gravity increases).

Moreover, at some point the wort/sparge/mash water will become saturated with sugar and any additional sugar left in the grain bed will not go into solution... so adding more grains to make up for the efficiency losses will only help up to this point.

The solution, of course, is more sparge water. But this too has it's limits. The mash is a solution of active enzymes and thinner mashes dilute the enzymes. This stymies the conversion of starches into sugars so the time it takes to achieve full conversion will be longer. Additionally, at some point the mash becomes so thin that conversion is seriously limited (so you can only add so much water). I believe the upper limit on mash consistency is somewhere around 3qts water per lb of grain.

Of course more sparge water also means that you then have to boil that off to get to your target OG. If you're on electricity then it's no big deal (just takes time) but since propane is so expensive the added cost per batch may be of concern to you.

I seriously considered this route and love the ingenuity of this design - beauty in simplicity - but found the limitations were considerable and getting another keggle to use as a HLT wasn't really that big of a deal for me. If I were doing this indoors in an apartment then I would probably feel different.

To summarize the limitations:
1. need fewer vessels but larger vessels
2. inefficiency losses that climb with target OG
3. longer boil time
4. slower conversion
5. probably, in general, not as fast a process as your traditional 3 vessel system.

 

[r8rphan]

I like IPA's.... How much of a reduction in efficiency are we talking?

How much sugar is left behind?

Trying not to do much in the way of boil down... An extra half hour at most would be acceptable...

 

[samc]

Why not just do a single vessel BIAB with a recirculation? One pot, less cleaning, works great. Check out the various threads on the subject.

 

[r8rphan]

Why not just do a single vessel BIAB with a recirculation? One pot, less cleaning, works great. Check out the various threads on the subject.

With the BIAB method, you're basically just doing a 'steeping' type thing like you would with the specialty grains in the extract kits, only with 'all the grains,' right?

If this is a viable method, why do people go to all the trouble of mash tuns, HLT's, pumps, etc? What are the down sides?

I have the turkey basket still from my original 5G extract rig... So if it's big enough, this is something I could consider.. But how is this different from tradition 2 or 3 vessel methods in regards to final product, efficiency, etc.?

Thanks,
Mark

 

[samc]

With the BIAB method, you're basically just doing a 'steeping' type thing like you would with the specialty grains in the extract kits, only with 'all the grains,' right?

If this is a viable method, why do people go to all the trouble of mash tuns, HLT's, pumps, etc? What are the down sides?

I have the turkey basket still from my original 5G extract rig... So if it's big enough, this is something I could consider.. But how is this different from tradition 2 or 3 vessel methods in regards to final product, efficiency, etc.?

Thanks,
Mark

Good question - I have a 3 keggle single tier RIMS system that sits unused because I've been happier with doing a BIAB single vessel brewing indoor with electric. I can clean up faster and brew the same beers, only smaller batches. I generally do 6 gallons now and I might lose a few points in efficiency but I gladly sacrifice $1.00 worth of grain to cut an hour of cleaning time and not have to hurt my back lifting keggles.

The beer is exactly as good in either system - no quality sacrifices at all. I am using a 15 gallon kettle - a 5 gallon kettle is not going to cut it unless you are doing small batches. I am using a pump to recirculate, but many or most BIAB'ers do not have any pumps or electronics.

 

[r8rphan]

My BK/HLT is a 15.5G keggle...

How exactly are you using the pump to recirculate?...

In my mind, I'm thinking that this allows for more consistent temps...

Combine it with a love temp control and this might be the hot ticket for me..

It would be so nice to just lift the grains out and dump them in a bucket all at once.... no taking the lauter manifold apart and dealing with oxycleaning the stains from the mash tun...

No lifting heavy buckets of wort up a ladder and into the BK... No cleaning of a bunch of buckets afterwards...

Just clean the one vessel and my CFC after the boil, toss the grain basket in the dishwasher, and be done with it..

I just measured my keggle and turkey fryer basket, and of course, the hole on the keggle is a half inch too small...

I have another keg I can use though.. Perhaps, I'll set that one up with an electric element, cut the bottom out and turn it upside down so that I can use a tri clover fitting on the original tapper mount, install a sight glass, a love controller, and then have a very compact 11G brew system... Might have to extend the sides of the turkey basket up a little, but that should be a piece of cake...

 

[samc]

Ball valve hose goes to pump, pump exit silicone hose goes on top of the grains, slightly submerged in the wort.

The good thing about doing this is if you find you don't like it you can still expand the system to the more traditional methods.

 

[r8rphan]

Ball valve hose goes to pump, pump exit silicone hose goes on top of the grains, slightly submerged in the wort.

The good thing about doing this is if you find you don't like it you can still expand the system to the more traditional methods.

Exactly what I'm thinking....