Question about cops and for those who live in Association communities

[cluckk]

Emigrate to a free state and leave the People's Republic of Kalifornia.

 

[Arg1129]

Being In law enforcement and in CA there is absolutely nothing the officer can do to "Shut it down." That it a civil rights violation waiting to happen. Police Officers can only enforce the penal code not a HOA bylaw. If the officer was trying to say it is a violation of 415pc he is sadly mistaken and you would have a lawsuit if they made any attempt to stop you. 415 says it must be loud and unreasonable noise. Brewing is pretty quiet, at least all mine is. I would suggest calling the department and talking to a supervisor level position and see what rights you have. Ask what city ordinance, if any, may be violated also without being rude ask if there was any reason, legally, that you would have to stop and then research that law,(or post it here and I will) if they can even give you one. The only issue is if there is a city ordinance you may be violating.

With calling just remember that people don't like being called out. Be polite and ambiguous and you will get more solid answers. Keep the name of the supervisor you talked to on hand so if an officer responds you can say "Sir, XXX told me that this was the only issues I had to consider... And here is how I did that."

As for HOA I would say be careful they have a way of suing people and all sorts of shady things to get you to comply. The issue is you signed an agreement that you would follow all by laws when you moved in. That is where you may run into problems.

Just remember that most officers don't know the laws about homebrewing and would rather be dealing with real crime than trying to appease a whiny HOA. Like parties he was probably hoping you would not call his bluff and stop brewing so he didn't have to waste time responding back out there for a trivial complaint. Again though remember the penal code is huge and if you rudely push your agenda against an officer that is vindictive they may find a creative way to get you to stop. Not that I would but every officer is different. I know that last line will elicit a huge uprising of f the police and other ignorant comments but it is more a comment on human nature than police, for the same reason you want to be right and brew, they want to be right, and have a few more resources at their disposal.

Good luck hope you can defeat the HOA they seem to be the biggest hurdle you'll come up against.

 

[unionrdr]

Boy,you guys are quick today! Guess I took too long researching/typing post #10. It's not said to be illegal here in Ohio,for instance. but there is no specific provision for it either. You just have to be licensed,inspected,etc to make & sell it. 4399.09 even talks about not having a place where it's sold,furnished,or given away. The place can be abated as a nuisance,etc,etc. Makes me wonder if they can fall back on that kind of thing to,even though your not really creating a public nuisance? Boy,did I pick a great place to live,or what? Been wanting to move out of OH. Just need a place where they like hotrodders & home brewin!

 

[RachmaelBenApplebaum]

You know, I'm a really liberal guy, and California is a beautiful state, but the laws are the only thing that have stopped me from even moving there. From gun control to nitpicky HOA arseholes to the MDV, just...nearly every law in that state drives me insane. I was in Vista Del Mar a few years back waiting to get picked up and I lit up a cigarette. I was nearly assaulted by a cop who thought I was just completely flouting their anti-smoking laws, when he found out I was from AZ I "got off" with a fine... Apparently you can't smoke outside there, even on your own property. My suggestions? Slog through the bureaucracy of your HOA and strike a blow for freedom-loving peoples or start lookin for a place that doesn't have an HOA/totalitarian governanace. If it were a true Communist Utopia everything would be held in common and you wouldn't have neighbors complaining about the new 3ft high fence enclosure their other neighbor put in that didn't pass DRC compliance. I work for a country club and have to deal with that brand of idiocy all the time, though I don't live in it so it's cool. Just gotta love living somewhere that denies you the right to paint your house the same color as it was before.

 

[Pilgarlic]

Preface: I've been developing communities, establishing HOA's, running them, enforcing deed restrictions and litigating violations since '84.

Deed restrictions are essentially a contract, and courts interpret them as such. If the deed restrictions say that you can't have an open flame in your garage (or something else that would make your brewing a violation of the restrictions), then you have entered into a contract agreeing not to brew in your garage. Laws rarely limit your right to enter into contracts, even if the provisions seem unfair. If the deed restrictions are against you, the law will rarely save you. Exceptions: many states have limited the validity of deed restrictions against displaying the flag, xeriscaping, putting up clotheslines or other energy efficient things et cetera. The deed restrictions can even say something like "no owner may engage in any activity on a Lot that poses a nuisance or an unsafe condition as determined in the sole and absolute discretion of the Board of Directors". Courts uphold this sort of thing, because you, as an owner, are deemed to have AGREED to the terms of the deed restrictions by virtue of your having taken title subject to those terms, of record. Doesn't even matter if you never saw them, the seller never told you and your lousy realtor hid them from you. The fact that they're recorded in the public records means that legally you had "constructive knowledge", i.e., in the eyes of the court, you knew. Bottom line is it's likely that if the Board wants to shut you down you're screwed. BUT, it's not a police matter. It's a civil matter.

 

[RachmaelBenApplebaum]

Emigrate to a free state and leave the People's Republic of Kalifornia.

I wasn't gonna say it, because I was thinking it, but I knew someone was gonna....

 

[Mongrel]

Ya ya, I think it is a square mileage thing. I need to find the breweries/sq mi. stats. I think Colorado (Fort Collins, for 25518) is generally more laid back than CA. Your current location sounds terrible. It looks like you have a few good resources from this thread...once the cops are clued in, maybe they will just stop responding to all the calls.

Nah, you have to go per capita. Bend, OR has a brewery for every 9,100 people.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

2009 International Fire Code, Chapter 3: General Requirements, Section 308: Open Flames, subsection 308.1.4: Open flame cooking devices, page 35.

"Charcoal burners and other open-flame cooking devices shall not be operated on combustible balconies or within 10 feet (3048 mm) of combustible construction.

Exceptions:

1. One and two family dwellings.
2. Where buildings, balconies, and decks are protected by an automoatic sprinkler system.
3. LP-gas cooking devices having LP-gas container with a water capacity not greater than 2-1/2 pounds [nominal 1 pound (0.454 kg) lp-gas capacity]."

 

[ICWiener]

HOAs are the worst.

I live in suburbia, in CA, but no HOA...that's the key. I have a neighbor who's a CHP officer, he sees me brewing in my garage all the time and the only thing he'll ask me is if I got any stout on tap. I told my next door neighbors that I planted 15 foot tall hop vines all along the fence, they said cool, go for it.

You just have to steer clear of the masterplanned communities.

 

[unionrdr]

But there are also laws that go against contracts with blatently illegal wording,or those of questionable legality. It's just human nature not to go after them & enforce the flip side of the laws or statutes they put into their contracts. I really think they need to take a hard look at these HOA contracts to ensure more precise wording so as to prevent them from using grey areas to harrass those they may not agree with or even like.

 

[dubprocess]

Progressivism at it's best. Wouldn't you love to find out who bitched and leave a big coil of yesterday's food in their driveway some evening? Beavis would....

I was thinking about posting a note on everyone's door saying if you cant come act like an adult and communicate..then mind your own $@#$$@#$@#$ business!

 

[woknblues]

I live in a HOA and have a few neighbor cops. Our HOA is mostly younger families. It seems like every time I brew, a cruiser drives by. Slowly. I usually wave hello.

 

[Pilgarlic]

But there are also laws that go against contracts with blatently illegal wording,or those of questionable legality. It's just human nature not to go after them & enforce the flip side of the laws or statutes they put into their contracts. I really think they need to take a hard look at these HOA contracts to ensure more precise wording so as to prevent them from using grey areas to harrass those they may not agree with or even like.

Generally speaking, courts will prevent Boards from acting "arbitrarily or capriciously". And where ambiguity exists in the language, their will be an attempt to discern the intent of the parties, and, at least in Florida, courts will err to the side of freedom of use of the property. Problem is every one of these declarations has a provision that allows the association to lien your property for legal fees if they win. Litigation is expensive. Want to take that chance?

 

[woknblues]

Also, I lived in Lake Forest for a while. I would get HOA letters all the time about neighbors complaining of me BBQing. In my own back yard. Seriously. They complained that there was "too much smoke". I had a webber and would grill steaks and chops and whatnot, 15-20 minutes max. How much ^%&*(& smoke on a Saturday afternoon for 20 minutes can you not endure, you psychos? They all would drive home in their mercedes SUV's and the garage door would close behind them. Couldn't wait to leave.

 

[unionrdr]

If I know I'm right yeah. I also am still a UAW member,& we do have legal services. To a point anyway. The fact that they haven't visibly or legally complained anymore shows I'm right in keeping within the laws regarding home brewing. I brew on the stove,so no problems there. I don't have wild parties where everyone's getting wasted on my beer,etc...

 

[Weezy]

On legal issues, always start local and go up. Definitely start with your home owners association bylaws. Post what it says and let us dissect it.

Here's Irvine Municipal Code on fires:

http://library.municode.com/HTML/10941/level2/TIT4PUSA_DIV4FI.html#TIT4PUSA_DIV4FI_S4-4-101FIBLRE

I'd look around more in the code for fires related to building code too.


This is interesting, regarding permits:
http://library.municode.com/HTML/10941/level2/TIT4PUSA_DIV4FI.html#TIT4PUSA_DIV4FI_S4-4-111PEINRE

You could get a permit from the fire marshall. Approach on the basis of trying to be safe, it's a legal act, and you wanted their input/approval. When you get the permit, ask for two copies. One ot keep and one to jam up your HOA manager's a$$.

 

[Desvio]

As for HOA I would say be careful they have a way of suing people and all sorts of shady things to get you to comply. The issue is you signed an agreement that you would follow all by laws when you moved in. That is where you may run into problems.

One of the tactics best know by HOA's is burying you in legal fees even if you are in the right it could end up costing you a huge amount to prove your point. Remember, the people running your HOA have huge superiority complexes, and DO NOT like to lose. And more than likely one of them is, or is married to a lawyer willing to support the HOA pro-bono.

 

[dubprocess]

On legal issues, always start local and go up. Definitely start with your home owners association bylaws. Post what it says and let us dissect it.

Here's Irvine Municipal Code on fires:

http://library.municode.com/HTML/10941/level2/TIT4PUSA_DIV4FI.html#TIT4PUSA_DIV4FI_S4-4-101FIBLRE

I'd look around more in the code for fires related to building code too.


This is interesting, regarding permits:
http://library.municode.com/HTML/10941/level2/TIT4PUSA_DIV4FI.html#TIT4PUSA_DIV4FI_S4-4-111PEINRE

You could get a permit from the fire marshall. Approach on the basis of trying to be safe, it's a legal act, and you wanted their input/approval. When you get the permit, ask for two copies. One ot keep and one to jam up your HOA manager's a$$.

Seriously I appreciate the feedback. So awesome you would do any kind of research for a total stranger..its greatly appreciated!

 

[Weezy]

No big deal man. I do a fair bit of interpreting and applying regulations for work.

From CA's Fire Code:

California's def of open burning :
http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/st/ca/st/b300v10/st_ca_st_b300v10_3_sec002.htm

OPEN BURNING. The burning of materials wherein products of combustion are emitted directly into the ambient air without passing through a stack or chimney from an enclosed chamber. Open burning does not include road flares, smudgepots and similar devices associated with safety or occupational uses typically considered open flames, recreational fires or use of portable outdoor fireplaces. For the purpose of this definition, a chamber shall be regarded as enclosed when, during the time combustion occurs, only apertures, ducts, stacks, flues or chimneys necessary to provide combustion air and permit the escape of exhaust gas are open.


I've gone back and forth on whether this definition would include turkey fryer style cookers or not. It doesn't read like it intends to. It hinges on the interpretation of "materials" in the first sentence including LP gas or not. I don't see LP combustion generating "products of combustion" that need a chimney. However, an enforcement official could interpret it as such if it suits their interest.

this might be the most applicable part (note too that it's "open flame" not "open burning." this could certianly be cited to show that gas burners are not open burning):

http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/st/ca/st/b300v10/st_ca_st_b300v10_3_sec008.htm

308.1.4 Open-flame cooking devices. Charcoal burners and other open-flame cooking devices shall not be operated on combustible balconies or within 10 feet (3048 mm) of combustible construction.

Exceptions:
1. One- and two-family dwellings.
2. Where buildings, balconies and decks are protected by an automatic sprinkler system.
3. LP-gas cooking devices having LP-gas container with a water capacity not greater than 2-1/2 pounds [nominal 1 pound (0.454 kg) LP-gas capacity].


Difficult to interpret the exceptions, whether or not you have to meet all or each. I'd want to say each (i.e. if you're in a single family house, the rest don't matter)

 

[unionrdr]

Being married to a lawyer who supports the HOA probono could also be construed as conflict of interest with criminal intent. I can play f-f too. let the freekin games begin....

 

[Pilgarlic]

Important to note that if the HOA were to take action alleging a violation of covenants, permit or code compliance is irrelevant. If you're doing something the Association deems in violation and you flash a permit or cite code, the association will have every right to say "yeah, so?".

 

[Weezy]

Important to note that if the HOA were to take action, alleging a violation of covenants, permit or code compliance is irrelevant. If you're doing something the Association deems in violation and you flash a permit or cite code, the association will have every right to say "yeah, so?".

There's an important distinction between "deems" in violation and what actually "is" in violation. Like I and others said, you need to start with the HOA rules and see what exact words it uses. If it only says no "open burning" you can easily argue, based on the cited CA fire code, that turkey fryers do not classify as "open burning." Unless they redefined "open burning" in the covenant to include such things. If they did, you should then argue that it includes grills and start calling cops on anyone BBQing.

 

[Pilgarlic]

There's an important distinction between "deems" in violation and what actually "is" in violation. Like I and others said, you need to start with the HOA rules and see what exact words it uses. If it only says no "open burning" you can easily argue, based on the cited CA fire code, that turkey fryers do not classify as "open burning." Unless they redefined "open burning" in the covenant to include such things. If they did, you should then argue that it includes grills and start calling cops on anyone BBQing.

Granted, you should use all of those arguments. My point was and is that deed restrictions stand on their own terms as a contract, and they are not trumped or defined by terms of a municipal code. Written contracts mean what they say, or, when the meaning is ambiguous, their meaning is illuminated by what if anything can be gleaned of the intent of the parties (in this case, of the declarant).

 

[PosterGuy]

I once came very close to purchasing a house in an association.
A quick read of the bylaws (as thick as a small telephone directory) killed the idea.
You're lucky as they apparently do let you keep your garage door open for more than 15 minutes at a time.
Until you can move back to America you might try putting the rig on the back patio alongside the BBQ.
(I assume there is a back yard and they didn't also ban gas grills)

 

[Pilgarlic]

I once came very close to purchasing a house in an association.
A quick read of the bylaws (as thick as a small telephone directory) killed the idea.

This is exactly what should happen. It's the reason that state laws require that deed restrictions and HOA's be disclosed in real estate sales contracts and sometimes even in separate disclosures. It's the reason that deed restrictions are recorded in public records and listed in title insurance policies. With the laws in place, if you are averse to deed restrictions and HOA's you have every opportunity to avoid being subject to them.

 

[BamaProud]

I don't like HOA's either but if you agreed to live there under their rules/guidelines then you have to live up to them no matter what the law says you can do.

A gas burner is an open flame...A gas grill is enclosed. The side burner may indeed be a violation. I would just move to the back porch/yard.

 

[Nightshade]

reading your post has got my blood boiling. I wish I could help with finding the legalities and actual documents. What is wrong with everyone these days? If your neighbors want to know what you're up to, why don't they come over and ask you?! why do they need to call the police because they don't know what you're doing? has the US really become a place where you call someone with guns and handcuffs every time you are ignorant of a given situation? People with money demanding control of the rest of the population because they are so worried someone may think differently.
A message for your old retired folks. When the people that have to work everyday are trying to enjoy themselves, just remember that you are living off of the social security that we are paying, from which we will not see a dime when we reach your age and have to work until we are 72 to retire efficiently. so keep your nose out of our business! Americans, leave your fellow country-men alone unless they are victimizing innocents. Let others be free to choose for themselves!!
sorry for ranting on your post man, but I have been dealing with bitching neighbors for a while myself.

The neighbors won't simply walk over and ask what he's doing because simply put they are a bunch of pu$$ies who would rather hide behind the HOA.

 

[thood6]

The neighbors won't simply walk over and ask what he's doing because simply put they are a bunch of pu$$ies who would rather hide behind the HOA.

Cough cough

+10

 

[Zamial]

Them: So I watched the 1st 9 episodes of "Breaking Bad" and I am 100% sure my neighbor is running a meth a lab!

Me: I am NOT making methamphetamine, I am making barley soup. Is it against the law/rules to make soup?

Them: No one else makes food in the driveway, clearly you are up to no good!

Me: So no one in my area BBQ's??? or is this just some sort of soup prejudge? You are not a culinary racist are you?

Them: Umm...

Me: NO SOUP FOR YOU!!!

Seriously...we are making food stuffs all the way up until we pitch yeast into a sugar solution. No one other than the authorities needs to know differently. I think if more homebrewers approached this from that angle that we would have less issues all the way around.

 

[pkrath84]

I live in a HOA in Yorba Linda. Quite a few of my neighbors homebrew and I havent heard any complaints. Then again, I brew in the backyard. My neighbor a few doors down brews in his garage all of the time though, and he usually has another neighbor come over to help.

I do however, do most everything else in the garage and occasionally get the nosy neighbor who walks their dog or child and slows down as they come across me while I'm processing my brew. I've had one neighbor come to a deadstop and stare. When I acknowledged him, he grabbed his kid and hurried off in a frenzy. Maybe he did think I was cooking meth. Haha! Nobody's ever complained though.

Sorry to hear. Hopefully everything works out for you.