PVC Pipe -- Friendly or No?

[Sumta]

Hello All,

This is my first post, and you should all be impressed, for in the text below I am courting the Resounding Raspberry, or perhaps even the Glorious Finger of Scorn.

For those who are not against plastic fermenters, is PVC pipe a reasonable material to use? I was at Lowe's on Sunday in the plumbing area. When my eyes fell upon the 8" PVC pipe, I began seeing 48" tall dancing fermenters to hold my 8+ gallon batches.

Is PVC pourous? Does it exude noxious poisons...or even worse bad tasting ones? How about HDPE?

Joe W

 

[davidkrau]

Most people will advise you to use CPVC instead of PVC PVC is intended for cold water pipes CPVC for hot water. I personally think that 6the only thing wrong with PVC is that it softens up a little in boiling water. Since PVC amd CPVC cost about the same your probably better off going with CPVC

 

[PT Ray]

I would have to say no. I don't think you will find cpvc in 8" diameters so you are looking at pvc. I also recall this pipe has not having the slickest finish on them so I would question how well it could be cleaned. Second, I think it would be proned to absorbing odor and flavors from batch to batch including the cleaning agents as this would not be an issue for its intended purpose. There is one way to find out for sure.

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Yeah, I don't think I would try it (for many of the reasons PT mentions), but it might work depending on how you set it up. Temperature shouldn't be an issue in this application, so PVC should be fine as opposed to going with C-PVC.

Edit...btw, HDPE should be fine if you can find that. However, I'm not sure about fermentation dynamics in a pipe. Traditional fermenters tend towards more shallow, open fermenters, while even the more modern conicals aren't super narrow. You might have cannon-like blowoff with a tube!

 

[sonvolt]

For my very first mash tun, I used pvc as a manifold because I hadn't heard anything that suggested that this may be a bad thing. The first brew I made with it had a slightly "plastic" taste but not like bandaids. Unfortunately, I drank this up like a session beer because of the taste. Now, I have only about 8 of these left, and it tastes amazing - off flavor = gone! So, I think that the off-flavor was this beer's "green" flavor rather than a result of the pvc manifold. I also brewed another beer (a belgian wit) with this setup and this "plasticy" flavor is not present at all, so I don't believe that the pvc gave any off-flavors.

Regardless of this, I switched to cpvc because it is inexpensive and just as simple to use. From personal experience, I see nothing wrong with pvc, but why not use cpvc for the hot water application.

$.02

 

[Cap'n Jewbeard]

I am kind of entertained, though, by the notion of having a "forest" of fermentation pipes. Maybe it wouldn't work for primary, but do you think it might do for secondary? What if we put in a spigot or something for racking?

I'm not technically-inclined, but I am space-challenged in the apartment, and the thought of being able to tuck those away somewhere, or tape some fake leaves on 'em to "camouflage" them in a room some where... well, it's damn appealing.

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

From personal experience, I see nothing wrong with pvc, but why not use cpvc for the hot water application.

If I understand what's being suggested, it's just making fermentors which means the temps would be well within bounds for PVC which is supposed to be safe at those temps (it's used for cold water applications). Unless I'm missing something.

 

[TK421]

As a Packaging Engineer I'll tell you that PVC is not FDA approved for direct food contact. It emits off flavors.

 

[kornkob]

Then why is it used for drinking water?

 

[casebrew]

And what about ABS, the black plastic?

 

[TK421]

Then why is it used for drinking water?

My bad. Brainfart.

 

[Lounge Lizard]

My bad. Brainfart.

I figured you would say because the water is generally moving through the pipe and with beer it is just sitting there.



Edited to add the missing words. Where did they go?? lol

 

[Levers101]

There is some concern that use of PVC for food products will leach the phthlate plasticizers into the food product. I know that there was a serious concern about childrens toys having PVC plasticizers in them, and pretty much all toys have stopped using this additive.

I will say that the intended use for the 8" pipe they sell at a hardware store (especially Lowes), isn't for drinking water. It'll probably say "For Drain, Waste, and Vent use only." That means its for use in sewer pipes. (And my guess is that no one at Lowes buys it for this purpose because I've worked for a plumber doing residential plumbing for a summer job and the biggest pipe I've ever seen used in a residential sewer was 6") This pipe isn't supposed to hold the 60+ psi that is standard in water distribution, but it may also not be rated as safe for drinking water for whatever reason. I've personally seen one too many dirty stick of PVC pipe to ever even consider putting my beer into it...

 

[kornkob]

While that 8" pipe may be for waste I know that I've seen PVC installed as water lines in most of the new houses I've seen built lately.

 

[Lost]

Any concerns about the pvc being gas permeable? What about the slightly acidic wort leaching flavors? I also wonder what the yeast would do in a such a tall and narrow container...

5 and 6.5 gal glass carboys can't be much if any more expensive than such a big section of pipe and.. well.. they're proven to work and are not all that hard to hide in a closet, under the sink, or behind the couch. Plus, with glass you get to see all the cool stuff happening in your beer during fermentation.

 

[Cap'n Jewbeard]

5 and 6.5 gal glass carboys can't be much if any more expensive than such a big section of pipe and.. well.. they're proven to work and are not all that hard to hide in a closet, under the sink, or behind the couch. Plus, with glass you get to see all the cool stuff happening in your beer during fermentation.

Well, that is true, getting to watch it does appeal to the science nerd in me. But I'll tell you this, the brewer who finds a way to incorporate the carboys into some kind of universally visually pleasing scenario will be a respected man indeed.

 

[TK421]

I figured you would say because the water is generally moving through the pipe and with beer it is just sitting there.



Edited to add the missing words. Where did they go?? lol

I think what I was thinking about is there are a lot of recyclability concerns with PVC bottles because they are so often confused with PET due to the clarity of both resins in blow molded bottles. This is obviously not of concern with a fermentor. I can tell you that the food manufacturer that I worked for stayed away from PVC due to the environmental unfriendliness, and it's banned in the majority of Europe for packaging of any kind.

 

[Sumta]

Wow. I go away for a few days and come back to a thread full of info. Good stuff!

Some good issues were raised:

• O2 permeability: I don't think there was a final answer here. If PVC is O2 permeable the solution may be to coat the pipe in something that is neither permeable nor likely to contribute to the taste of the beer. Epoxy was mentioned as non-reactive in another thread.
• PVC contributing tastes: this can only be (dis)proven experimentally
• Price - 6.5 gallon carboys are $22 at MoreBeer.com. 10' of 6" PVC pipe from Lowes holds 15 gallons and costs $32. The PVC is the better price per gallon, plus, you can claim its art. I know. I know. I didn't shop around for the carboy, but then I didn't shop around for the PVC either.
• Leaching poisons: I think that plasticizers are only present in flexible PVC, but the point is well taken. There is enough controversy on wikipedia about PVC to make me nervous, but there is more frenzy than fact at the links listed. Once or twice won't kill me (famous last words), plus I have lots of friends.

I think the bottom line is that I am gonna try it, and if I don't die (quickly) I will report back.

jw

 

[sonvolt]

I've been reading this thread for a few days now . . . and I am still confused. Initially, I thought the thread was about using PVC for a mash tun manifold. I am failing to understand how 6" PVC could replace a carboy as a primary/secondary fermentation vessel. How would this work? What would it look like?

I am much confused . . . .

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

I've been reading this thread for a few days now . . . and I am still confused. Initially, I thought the thread was about using PVC for a mash tun manifold. I am failing to understand how 6" PVC could replace a carboy as a primary/secondary fermentation vessel. How would this work? What would it look like?

I am much confused . . . .

What's being discussed is capping and airlocking a PVC tube and using it as a fermenter.

 

[sonvolt]

I am confused as to why someone would want to do this. What possible benefits would come from using this method over a regular carboy. It is not like glass carboys or plastic fermenting buckets are expensive or anything. Also, how would one store, clean, and manage such a contraption?

Is this "tube fermented" ale some kind of brew that I am unfamiliar with?

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

I am confused as to why someone would want to do this.

It's all discussed in the posts above. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Experimentation is what led to us (homebrewers collectively) doing all-grain batches in chest coolers and converted kegs.

 

[Sumta]

I am confused as to why someone would want to do this.

Heck, Sonvolt. I don't know why I do half of what I do. Why didn't I marry Laura Harbert back in college? (if you're listening, sorry about that Laura!)

What possible benefits would come from using this method over a regular carboy.

• My curiousity would be assuaged.
• The shape of a carboy disturbs my sense of bliss.
• There is a wall in my soon to be built storage shed to which I would bolt them so all could admire and choose.
• When I am old and grey and tell young whippersnappers like yourself that PVC is a bad idea, they will think me a HomeBrew guru. (A HomeBrewru?)

My thought is to cap them with pvc and stick valves on the bottom to drain off the trub and sample the brew,. Dont forget the hole in the top for a cork or blow off tube.

Is this "tube fermented" ale some kind of brew that I am unfamiliar with?

All ales fermented in this tube, should they prove potable, will be called Big Joe's [beertype]. All lagers will be called Joe Cool's [beertype]. The tube itself will be called Das Brewru. Men will envy me. Women will flock to me (especially Laura). There will be movies, money and homebrew.

Life is good.

"Big" Joe "Cool"

 

[brewhead]

i think that ppl get hung up on details and it takes away from their brewing

 

[Cap'n Jewbeard]

i think that ppl get hung up on details and it takes away from their brewing

Well to an extent that's certainly true, but on the other hand sometimes the details are a very enjoyable and stimulating part of a hobby like home-brewing. It's the same spirit of tinkering and adventure that leads electronically oriented people to build a laptop in a Batman lunchbox.

Same kind of thing. Consider the "forest" of 5' tall PVC brew-tubes to be just another kind of mod. Especially if they have neon lights on them.

 

[sonvolt]

Heck, Sonvolt. I don't know why I do half of what I do. Why didn't I marry Laura Harbert back in college? (if you're listening, sorry about that Laura!)

• My curiousity would be assuaged.
• The shape of a carboy disturbs my sense of bliss.
• There is a wall in my soon to be built storage shed to which I would bolt them so all could admire and choose.
• When I am old and grey and tell young whippersnappers like yourself that PVC is a bad idea, they will think me a HomeBrew guru. (A HomeBrewru?)

My thought is to cap them with pvc and stick valves on the bottom to drain off the trub and sample the brew,. Dont forget the hole in the top for a cork or blow off tube.


All ales fermented in this tube, should they prove potable, will be called Big Joe's [beertype]. All lagers will be called Joe Cool's [beertype]. The tube itself will be called Das Brewru. Men will envy me. Women will flock to me (especially Laura). There will be movies, money and homebrew.

Life is good.

"Big" Joe "Cool"

'nuff said . . . brew on!!!

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

And what about ABS, the black plastic?

I was told by a former brewmaster at Labatt's that ABS is inert and in fact the mega brewers were looking in to ABS fermenters and cold storage tanks. The reason the gave up on the idea was cost.

 

[Straydog]

so the thread dies without so much as a decision? man i was thinking the same thing and i thought someone had done this and could tell me if it was a good idea.
Properly configured i could have 8 fermentors at a time for about the same space cost as two carboys.

sumta what happened.

 

[Revvy]

Most of these people are long since gone from here....

A similar discussion that iirc was a wee bit contentious is here,

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/plastic-pvc-pipe-5-gal-mini-keg-78012/

 

[llazy_llama]

A three year gap between posts? This has gotta be a record.