Putting fermenter on a stir plate?

[Azura]

dont forget to reference the part about astrigency and polyphenol harshness. its a delicate dance. wouldnt want folks to start shakin the hell out of their fermenters without knowing possible side effects.

Astringency and polyphenol harshness are not terms extreme hop heads worry about. Smelling the beer from at least two feet away from the glass is more important.

For two years in a row, I was a keg dry hop inverter/shaker every day for 5 days while using bagged hops. They were the most aromatic beers I've made using 4oz of dry hops. No enthusiastic IPA drinker that tasted the beers said they were astringent or harsh.

Then I got too lazy to invert the damn keg once a day for 5 days and my IPAs became less impressive, but I didn't really care. The beer still tasted good and had good enough aroma to be enjoyable.

Then I compensated for my laziness by using more unshaken hops. The flavor and aroma kicked up a notch or two.

 

[ba-brewer]

Not sure how this fits in but I believe one of the function of a stir plate is to push CO2 out solution.

There are some people on the American homebrew Association forum that believe a stir plate is a bad thing for yeast and use a shaken not stir approach. Something about pressure or forces damaging the yeast some how.
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[SanPancho]

yeah, its pretty insane what folks will do on homebrew level- things that just would never scale into commercial beer- unless it was like $10/pint or more. its crazy. but damnit its good.

but joking aside- shaking your keg has little to nothing to do with the kind of forces generated by the impeller of a 5hp pump. even slowing it down you can still get some bad reactions.

i cant remember as it has been so long since it read that paper but i think it had alot to do with the green material. so in theory, things like hop powder would be a perfect candidate for recirc- pure flavor, no green material, no harshness or polyphenols. i havent used it yet, but from what i hear about issues with it not dispersing well and clumping sometimes, maybe a good blast through a pump could be a good solution if done o2-free.

 

[Azura]

Not sure how this fits in but I believe one of the function of a stir plate is to push CO2 out solution.

There are some people on the American homebrew Association forum that believe a stir plate is a bad thing for yeast and use a shaken not stir approach. Something about pressure or forces damaging the yeast some how.
​

CO2 will remain in solution if the head space pressure is more than or equal to the pressure of the solution. Since no one ferments starters with a truly closed pressure system, CO2 will escape solution.

The concept of stir plate starters being bad for yeast is silly. If it was bad for yeast, then I guess I have been very lucky 100% of the time hundreds of times. I'd rather be lucky than talented!

 

[ba-brewer]

CO2 will remain in solution if the head space pressure is more than or equal to the pressure of the solution. Since no one ferments starters with a truly closed pressure system, CO2 will escape solution.

The concept of stir plate starters being bad for yeast is silly. If it was bad for yeast, then I guess I have been very lucky 100% of the time hundreds of times. I'd rather be lucky than talented!

The amount of CO2 generated by yeast is greater than what can passively escape that is why your fermentor continues to bubbles even after fermentation is complete. Also if you throw your stir bar and put it back into action the starter will foam up some times. The BOMM approach to mead can also demonstrate the principle if you don't read the full thread.

I mentioned the shaken not stir approach because there are some people that think a stir plate it is not a good thing. I am not one of them. I believe they have studies to support the claims.

 

[Azura]

yeah, its pretty insane what folks will do on homebrew level- things that just would never scale into commercial beer- unless it was like $10/pint or more. its crazy. but damnit its good.

but joking aside- shaking your keg has little to nothing to do with the kind of forces generated by the impeller of a 5hp pump. even slowing it down you can still get some bad reactions.

Well you were the one who was really worried about home brewers getting harsh hop results from shaking the keg. Instead of shaking, I prefer to gently invert them for 1-2 hours once a day to let things mix when I'm not feeling lazy. Shaking a keg is something a 500 pound gorilla would do for no apparent reason. I can assure you, I'm not a 500 pound gorilla.

Since there are probably still zero homebrewers that have tested the apparatus in the pic I posted above that was published 6 years ago, how can you be so sure about what you are saying here? Presumably, you have tested this dry hop pump apparatus in the home brew scale? If yes, where did you talk about it?

And which homebrew pumps are 5hp? That's a lot of horses for homebrew! The typical Chugger is 1/20 hp.

 

[Azura]

The amount of CO2 generated by yeast is greater than what can passively escape that is why your fermentor continues to bubbles even after fermentation is complete. Also if you throw your stir bar and put it back into action the starter will foam up some times. The BOMM approach to mead can also demonstrate the principle if you don't read the full thread.

I mentioned the shaken not stir approach because there are some people that think a stir plate it is not a good thing. I am not one of them. I believe they have studies to support the claims.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you have said here. However, whatever 'study' claims a stir plate starter isn't good for my beer is irrelevant to me. I've made plenty of beer with and without stir starters and determined stir starters are worth doing. However, they aren't necessary.

 

[radwizard]

The thing i am not getting here is what are you hoping to accomplish... I get the concept of dry hop utilization through agigating, and understand why a commercial brewery would want to to trim a few days off the growth stage of fermentation. On a homebrew level, i just honestly cant think of what could be gained.

Im really not trying to be rude at all and i apologize if i was. Part of the question was if it so great for the starter then why not for the fermentation... in my rando opinion it wouldnt be purposeful.

Id love to learn something new and may be missing something. So the question id ask is, what is your goals with the method?

Cheers!

 

[Azura]

I've seen this idea tested at Brulosophy a year ago, check it out here - http://brulosophy.com/2016/10/17/th...tion-during-fermentation-exbeeriment-results/

Knit picking Brulosopher xBmts is like shooting fish in a barrel. This particular xBmt is significantly more flawed than the rest. If anyone thinks this is a valid brewing experiment, please defend it.

They used a home made cigar box 1-5L? stir plate to spin 18L of beer in a tall 5 gallon keg. What could possibly go wrong there? Pretty sure the stir bar kicked while the Brulosopher was sleeping and dreaming about being relevant.

Not surprisingly, the beers finished at the same FG and tasted the same according to less than 20 people.

 

[Azura]

The thing i am not getting here is what are you hoping to accomplish...

Id love to learn something new and may be missing something. So the question id ask is, what are your goals with the method?

Fair questions that deserve a fair reply from the OP. It's probably not going to happen now. No one said something that validated the OP's concept. A lot of people politely refuted it.

 

[schematix]

Brulosophy is just the amateur version of Mythbysters for the home brewer. At best it's low quality entertainment. Don't take it as anything more than that or mediocrity will always be your ceiling.

 

[ba-brewer]

The thought of a big stir plate for a fermentor to aerate the wort had crossed my mind before. Most likely when thinking about the cost of a tank, regulator, aeration stone and storing a big ol tank. One time investment sort of thing vs an on going expense. Also recall reading something that it does not take too much time for dissolved oxygen levels to drop. Maybe only use for a few hours not the whole fermentation. Would like to say I was drinking at the time but I think that could of been a sober thought. I ended up going the little red can approach.

 

[MackerelQ]

First off, I really appreciate the input and discussion- lots to chew on. Not sure I’m totally on board with the Brewlosophy hate though, but whatever to each their own.

Perhaps my question was too narrow or not well explained, but I simply just wanted to know if there were any positives or negatives to putting my fermenting wort on a stir plate. At the risk of sounding sarcastic, I would hope my goal would be obvious in that I desire to affect the process in a positive way, either by speed, efficiency, improved quality, other? One of the things I would hope this idea would address would be to thwart slow, lazy fermentations by keeping the yeast moving and possibly more oxygenated.

I’ve already done some initial experiments with this idea. I have both a standard plastic bucket fermenter and an Ss Brewtech conical brew bucket.

I first put 5 gallons of water in the plastic bucket and placed it on my standard sized stir plate. Within a few minutes I had a small vortex. The next more challenging test was trying this out on my conical. With the right distance between the cone and the stir plate and the right size stir bar, once again success. Actually, the conical was a little better than the bucket since the cone kept the bar in place and made it harder to throw.

I plan to do some real world comparative tests with this process as soon as I can and will report back my findings.

 

[schematix]

Not sure I’m totally on board with the Brewlosophy hate though, but whatever to each their own.

It's not hate at all... The concern is that so many people throw it around as 'evidence' of something, and it's not. Take it for what it is and nothing more - Entertainment Value Only.

 

[SanPancho]

Fair questions that deserve a fair reply from the OP. It's probably not going to happen now. No one said something that validated the OP's concept. A lot of people politely refuted it.

wrong. as i stated above there are commercial breweries that use agitation/recirc in their fermenters. so yes, that validates his concept.

Well you were the one who was really worried about home brewers getting harsh hop results from shaking the keg. Instead of shaking, I prefer to gently invert them for 1-2 hours once a day to let things mix when I'm not feeling lazy. Shaking a keg is something a 500 pound gorilla would do for no apparent reason. I can assure you, I'm not a 500 pound gorilla.

Since there are probably still zero homebrewers that have tested the apparatus in the pic I posted above that was published 6 years ago, how can you be so sure about what you are saying here? Presumably, you have tested this dry hop pump apparatus in the home brew scale? If yes, where did you talk about it?

And which homebrew pumps are 5hp? That's a lot of horses for homebrew! The typical Chugger is 1/20 hp.

and as far as homebrewers shaking their kegs, as i also noted above, its not likely to lead to the breakdown of the vegetal mass that was linked to astringency and polyphenols. i said you should make them aware of POSSIBLE side effects, not guaranteed effects.

no i dont recirc my hops on homebrew. never said i did. and a 5hp pump is obviously not for home use, is it? however since the publication of the paper there are plenty of folks with conicals these days, so i would expect somebody is doing this. at home. with a pump.

now how can i be sure of what im saying here? well if you want the source of this data, you can easily see the notes on astringency and polyphenols are right in the friggin opening abstract of the paper. i guess you didnt read it?

my experience is 10bbl vessels with 1.5hp pump on vfd. buddies across town have gone too hard, or for too long and told the tale. we based our SOP off their experiences.

 

[Nagorg]

I guess I'm too lazy and dont mind waiting on fermentation and think the dry hop utilization I've been getting is fine; though I have made these bigger... I'm not sure that the money I'd could potentially save on hops, if recirculating in the fermentor did in fact allow me to use less, would be worth the additional complexity in my process. At least not at my homebrew scale.

@MackerelQ: Sorry you haven't gotten the responses you'd hoped for but you're certainly getting a lot of interesting information, viewpoints etc.. In the end you wind up doing what works for you anyway. So, I'll follow this for sure and am looking forward to any conclusions you draw!

 

[MackerelQ]

Thanks, @Nagorg. My suspicion that nearly no one does this, but there’s no compelling reason not to is seeming to be be confirmed.

I have no problem breaking away from tradition and testing ideas that aren’t typically practiced on the home brew scale. I have a feeling it’s a question many people have asked themselves, but hardly any have tested.

 

[Azura]

It's not hate at all... The concern is that so many people throw it around as 'evidence' of something, and it's not. Take it for what it is and nothing more - Entertainment Value Only.

Disagreeing with popular things is considered hate by people that want to agree with popular things. I don't hate Brulosophy, but they certainly don't have many valid experiments. Do they have any valid experiments? Not sure. They do have an enthusiastic audience and sponsors.

 

[Azura]

wrong. as i stated above there are commercial breweries that use agitation/recirc in their fermenters. so yes, that validates his concept.

No it doesn't. Professional scale and homebrew scale are not comparable in this context. Since you believe they are, please tell us how stirring a 5 gallon wort with a stir plate would be beneficial for homebrewers. Then explain why you didn't tell the OP what he wanted to hear with your first post.

In terms of 5 gallon fermentation, there are zero significant benefits for stir plating the fermenter. Recirculation of dry hops in a 10-400bbl fermenter is a different animal.

 

[SanPancho]

Professional scale and homebrew scale are not comparable in this context.

says who? you? because you are the expert? please state your expert qualifications.

and while you are at it, please explain why these techniques that go from commercial to homebrew are well known, well practiced, and effective-

water chemistry
low oxygen mash/kettle techniques ( a bit debateable for some i admit)
yeast nutrients
temp control of ferment
fermenting under pressure
dry hop recirculation
primary dry hopping

closed transfers under co2
fining instead of filtration
oxygen/air purging vessels
bulk aging in barrels

Since you believe they are, please tell us how stirring a 5 gallon wort with a stir plate would be beneficial for homebrewers. Then explain why you didn't tell the OP what he wanted to hear with your first post.

you know what? ignore the first half above.

read post 1. then post 10. then post 11.

OP asks Q. i answer Q. OP says thanks for the info.


WHOSE VILLAGE IS MISSING ITS IDIOT?

 

[Azura]

says who? you? because you are the expert? please state your expert qualifications.

and while you are at it, please explain why these techniques that go from commercial to homebrew are well known, well practiced, and effective-

water chemistry
low oxygen mash/kettle techniques ( a bit debateable for some i admit)
yeast nutrients
temp control of ferment
fermenting under pressure
dry hop recirculation
primary dry hopping

closed transfers under co2
fining instead of filtration
oxygen/air purging vessels
bulk aging in barrels



you know what? ignore the first half above.

read post 1. then post 10. then post 11.

OP asks Q. i answer Q. OP says thanks for the info.


WHOSE VILLAGE IS MISSING ITS IDIOT?

Very funny. The subject is using a stir plate in a homebrew fermenter. Your previous post that you have referred to here again as the basis for your 'argument' is not relevant in this context simply because other things pros do are beneficial for homebrewers. Scale matters.

Explain how using a stir plate in a 5-10 gallon homebrew set up is significantly beneficial. Good luck 10bbl brewer.

 

[SanPancho]

Explain how using a stir plate in a 5-10 gallon homebrew set up is significantly beneficial. Good luck 10bbl brewer.

Explain how you ignore all evidence and statements contrary to your opinion while declaring your views as the definitve source on what works and what does not work for homebrewing. List your qualifications, both academic and brewing related, and cite your experimental data or published papers supporting your opinions. Lastly, present your data supporting your opinion regarding agitation during primary specifically in the sub-one barrel batch sizes that you are relying on argumentatively.

You do have data and proof right?

 

[Azura]

Explain how you ignore all evidence and statements contrary to your opinion while declaring your views as the definitve source on what works and what does not work for homebrewing. List your qualifications, both academic and brewing related, and cite your experimental data or published papers supporting your opinions. Lastly, present your data supporting your opinion regarding agitation during primary specifically in the sub-one barrel batch sizes that you are relying on argumentatively.

You do have data and proof right?

You still can't explain how using a stir plate in a 5-10 gallon homebrew set up is significantly beneficial. This is the whole point of the thread. Based on your commentary vigor and alleged 10bbl experience, it should be very easy to explain to us small batch brewers how a stir plate in the fermenter is worthwhile.

Instead, you are hung up on saying many things pro brewers do are good homebrew practices. No one is arguing that. However, this doesn't mean using a stir plate in 5-10 gallon batches is worth doing.

Now is your last chance to say why it is...

 

[SanPancho]

You still can't explain how using a stir plate in a 5-10 gallon homebrew set up is significantly beneficial. This is the whole point of the thread. Based on your commentary vigor and alleged 10bbl experience, it should be very easy to explain to us small batch brewers how a stir plate in the fermenter is worthwhile.

Instead, you are hung up on saying many things pro brewers do are good homebrew practices. No one is arguing that. However, this doesn't mean using a stir plate in 5-10 gallon batches is worth doing.

Now is your last chance to say why it is...

No, this is your chance to state how you definitively know it wont do anything. You are the contrarian here, not me. Ive pointed out numerous ways that brewing technique is copied from pro to homebtrew level with success. You have given zero proof that this case is different.

All you have is your uneducated and evidence-lacking opinion, which apparently all should accept because...... you said so?

Put up or shut up. Show us the goods. Or adnit the total lack of evidence for your statement.

 

[balrog]

I have had English yeasts that needed rousing as they stopped too soon.
I opened and stirred with a sanitized whateverthehellwaslongenoughtoreach.
I too thought, albeit briefly, about stir bar. But for the limited number of times I wanted it, it was simpler to carefully stir. Some people talk of swirling the fermenter (fermentor?) daily with quick-floccing yeasts.

The shaken-not-sitrbarred folks had evidence of yeast shear stress, but I don't recall the specifics. I've yet to try that method, as I don't make starters to pitch at exactly high krausen because I overbuild and want to decant and save some.

 

[SanPancho]

I have had English yeasts that needed rousing as they stopped too soon.
Some people talk of swirling the fermenter (fermentor?) daily with quick-floccing yeasts.

I see you were applying agitation/rousing of yeast in primary. I assume this was “5-10 gallon” batch size or similar?

Not sure what kind of fermenter or carboy you used, but if you had it on a lazy susan and could just give it a quick spin a few times a day would you have preferred that to opening it up and having to stick a whateverthehellwaslongenoughtoreach in there? That was the concept i originally had. Then i got cute and tried to automate the spin with a turntable, but i got lazy and abandoned it.

 

[chris000]

...

I do appreciate people’s input and advice, but I notice posters tend to not address the original question and provide argumentative statements instead. So, if anyone actually knows if there are any benefits (negative or positive) to using a stir plate on their fermenting wort, I would love to hear from you.

Agitation during fermentation; i.e. enable sufficient interaction between media and the 'bugs', is nothing new and there is a ton of papers and more general literature out there once you go beyond beer.
I have questioned myself if I should try it out or not and reminded myself that I never bothered shaking/stirring the fermentor. So, obviously it's not high on my priority list.

What I find strange in this thread is that the OP has not done any research, but gets upset already by post #5 that nobody "answers" the question while he himself doesn't bring anything to the table!
It's a public forum; everyone is free to contribute what they feel is relevant.
What an entitled generation of people are we breeding who knows nothing and demands that others have to spoon feed them for free. Even if you pay a consulting firm a lot of money you often don't get the simple answer you are hoping for.
Sorry for the rant, not meant personal - this is just another thread where it came up.

 

[MackerelQ]

@chris000, if there is indeed “a ton of papers”, could you please share some of these sources? I am very curious about this subject.

Regarding your statement that I did no research, I believe I stated that I performed what I felt was an exhaustive search on HBT for anyone posting on the subject. If that was not a sufficient amount of research, I apologize- I’ll run all my research efforts by you from now on before I ask a question here. I would hate to decrease the overall time it takes to get an answer by asking possible experts, but instead lavish in the super rewarding task of aimlessly scouring the interwebs for a morsel of arcane knowledge (ahem).

Yes, by post #5 the subject was (in my opinion) already going off the rails as these things often times do, but I wasn’t upset. What I do find very interesting is the phenomenon of the poster that has no knowledge on the subject, but for some reason still feels the need to respond. It would be like a gradeschool teacher asking a question of the class and little Billy jumping up and down with his hand raised and when called on he says, “I don’t know the answer at all”. Do people really need that much attention that they need to respond just to say they don’t know anything? ...and don’t say it doesn’t happen, because I’ve seen it time and time again.

So, yes it’s a public forum- and I’m also free to share that I believe certain things shared are irrelevant, which I believe some have concurred.

I don’t disagree with you about the “entitled generation”, but please direct your ire where it’s appropriate. You seem to imply that there was some sort of demand placed on the HBT community here by me asking an extremely simple question. I did not ask anyone for a 200 page thesis or voluminous research, I just wanted to know if anyone knows of any reason why this would be a good or bad idea.

Let’s key in on one word, however, “knows”. I have all sorts of unsubstantiated assumptions about the possible good and bad effects of this idea. I was really just hoping there was someone out there that had done it themselves and was willing to share their experience. I also find the other comments that others like large scale breweries do this helpful as well. At least that further strengthens my belief that this may not be a bad practice and could have some benefits.

 

[MackerelQ]

@chris000, if there is indeed “a ton of papers”, could you please share some of these sources? I am very curious about this subject.

Regarding your statement that I did no research, I believe I stated that I performed what I felt was an exhaustive search on HBT for anyone posting on the subject. If that was not a sufficient amount of research, I apologize- I’ll run all my research efforts by you from now on before I ask a question here. I would hate to decrease the overall time it takes to get an answer by asking possible experts, but instead lavish in the super rewarding task of aimlessly scouring the interwebs for a morsel of arcane knowledge (ahem).

Yes, by post #5 the subject was (in my opinion) already going off the rails as these things often times do, but I wasn’t upset. What I do find very interesting is the phenomenon of the poster that has no knowledge on the subject, but for some reason still feels the need to respond. It would be like a gradeschool teacher asking a question of the class and little Billy jumping up and down with his hand raised and when called on he says, “I don’t know the answer at all”. Do people really need that much attention that they need to respond just to say they don’t know anything? ...and don’t say it doesn’t happen, because I’ve seen it time and time again.

So, yes it’s a public forum- and I’m also free to share that I believe certain things shared are irrelevant, which I believe some have concurred.

I don’t disagree with you about the “entitled generation”, but please direct your ire where it’s appropriate. You seem to imply that there was some sort of demand placed on the HBT community here by me asking an extremely simple question. I did not ask anyone for a 200 page thesis or voluminous research, I just wanted to know if anyone knows of any reason why this would be a good or bad idea.

Let’s key in on one word, however, “knows”. I have all sorts of unsubstantiated assumptions about the possible good and bad effects of this idea. I was really just hoping there was someone out there that had done it themselves and was willing to share their experience. I also find the other comments, that others like large scale breweries do this, helpful as well. At least that further strengthens my belief that this may not be a bad practice and could have some benefits.

 

[MackerelQ]

Sorry for the repost. Was trying to edit