Purpose of candi sugar vs extract?

[user 227424]

Just started a Belgian golden and a triple. The recipes called for a pound and two of light/clear candi sugar. I'm wondering what quality the candi sugar imparts as opposed to another pound or two of extract? Most searches for candi sugar lead to candi vs cane disputes rather than the purpose of these sugars in general...

 

[flars]

Candi sugar is 100% fermentable. Flavor addition to the beer will depend upon which type you use. There are very light colored candi sugars and very dark colors. Dark candi sugar will add more flavor than the lighter ones.

 

[jmcquesten]

Double post deleted

 

[jmcquesten]

Candi sugar is 100% fermentable. Flavor addition to the beer will depend upon which type you use. There are very light colored candi sugars and very dark colors. Dark candi sugar will add more flavor than the lighter ones.

This ^

And to expand further, when the candi sugar (or cane sugar if using that instead) ferments all the way, it helps dry the beer out in addition to bringing up the alcohol content. Adding more extract to get you to the same starting gravity, will usually result in a higher finishing gravity leaving the beer sweeter.

Belgish beers are known for being dryer (they call it more digestible or something), and the simple sugars are part of how they achieve that.

All grain brewers also use lower mash temperatures to get a more fermentable wort, to try to dry the beer out. The issue with low mash temp AND simple sugar used together is the risk of really thin, cidery beer. This is discussed in the thread for "Revys Leffe clone".

I'm guessing that the OP might be using extract or partial grain, so the mash temp issue is probably not a concern. It IS however, something that I'm concerned with and have experienced.

 

[Dcpcooks]

Candi sugar will add:
Higher alcohol with a bit thinner body and some flavor and or color. I.e. Belgian style beers triples and doubles

Extract will add more body and be less fermentable. Just more of the same.

Dextrose will add more alcohol and thin the beer without adding flavor. I.e. Dipa

 

[Lefou]

(they call it more digestible or something)

There's a bit of truth in that.
If you're using grains or adjuncts that leave unfermented complex sugars and starches, you can literally "blow gas" because your digestive system doesn't break them down and pass the byproducts properly. Certain yeasts process wort differently. Certain more highly attenuative yeast strains can metabolize sugars ale and lager yeasts leave behind.

I love summer squash ... and don't get me started on beans. I love them but they don't love me.
Many high gravity ales and lagers with finicky yeasts and under-modified malts will have some dextrins and proteins left over, unlike wines. I'm pretty sure the monks offended each other from time to time and they noticed the drier styles might've had a positive effect.

 

[user 227424]

Interesting, very helpful. Yup I'm extract brewing. Also one recipe has the candi sugar go in for the full hour and the other just the last 15min? And in both the LME is divided in two portions early and late. This is new to me as so far just made weizens. They all smell quite like a weizen at the airtrap, must be similar yeasts?

 

[ncbrewer]

Late extract addition helps minimize Maillard reactions, so you don't darken the beer so much as adding it all at the beginning. It also improves hop utilization, so less hops are needed. There's been considerable debate about hop utilization vs boil gravity. The latest I've seen attributes the effect to higher protein content pulling more iso acids out of solution. If you add the sugar at flameout, that variable is minimized.

 

[Lefou]

Interesting, very helpful. Yup I'm extract brewing. Also one recipe has the candi sugar go in for the full hour and the other just the last 15min? And in both the LME is divided in two portions early and late. This is new to me as so far just made weizens. The all smell quite like weizen at the airtrap, must be similar yeasts?

From what you've written it seems the yeast is healthy so far. Any rank smell from the airlock never bodes well but you'll be able to judge far better when bottling time arrives.

 

[user 227424]

From what you've written it seems the yeast is healthy so far. Any rank smell from the airlock never bodes well but you'll be able to judge far better when bottling time arrives.

I think/hope so. Gonna give them a secondary as recipes suggest. The triple w/wy3738 has been a lot more active at the trap, had to give it a blowoff, while the golden strong w/1388 is much calmer, as is the lower gravity leffe/blonde w/1762. Can't wait to find out.

 

[user 227424]

Late extract addition helps minimize Maillard reactions, so you don't darken the beer so much as adding it all at the beginning. It also improves hop utilization, so less hops are needed. There's been considerable debate about hop utilization vs boil gravity. The latest I've seen attributes the effect to higher protein content pulling more iso acids out of solution. If you add the sugar at flameout, that variable is minimized.

Sounds like no reason reason not to add half(or most?) of extract/sugar at or near flameout?

 

[jmcquesten]

Sounds like no reason reason not to add half(or most?) of extract/sugar at or near flameout?

The sugar can be added during the last 15 minutes or right after the peak of fermentation is over. As far as the malt extract, I think it is recommended to add at least half at the start of boil. Seems like most people split the extract additions in half.

Some say it's actually better to add the simple sugars (candi sugar/syrup, cane sugar, etc.) after peak fermentation to force the yeast to eat the more complex sugars (from the malt extract).

 

[techbrau]

One of the biggest reasons why it's used hasn't been brought up yet: malt extract is mostly maltose (a disaccharide), whereas invert and candi sugar syrups are mostly monosaccharides. Generally speaking, more monosaccharides in the wort leads to increased ester production by the yeast.

It's the same reason why many British ale recipes also call for some invert syrup. It actually helps bring out more estery fruitiness from the yeast.

 

[user 227424]

The sugar can be added during the last 15 minutes or right after the peak of fermentation is over. As far as the malt extract, I think it is recommended to add at least half at the start of boil. Seems like most people split the extract additions in half.

Indeed, most recipes I've seen split it in half.

I did not know adding sugar during fermentation was a thing? Sounds advanced for me.

In some of the candi vs cane threads it has been promoted that cane sugar be in for a while(not sure how long) as the heat and acidity break the sucrose into fructose and glucose which is what the candi sugar is. Though some add the cane late and say it doesn't matter. Interesting stuff!

http://www.fermentarium.com/homebrewing/belgian-candi-vs-table-sugar-for-homebrew-beer/

 

[user 227424]

One of the biggest reasons why it's used hasn't been brought up yet: malt extract is mostly maltose (a disaccharide), whereas invert and candi sugar syrups are mostly monosaccharides. Generally speaking, more monosaccharides in the wort leads to increased ester production by the yeast.

It's the same reason why many British ale recipes also call for some invert syrup. It actually helps bring out more estery fruitiness from the yeast.

Perhaps candi sugar would be a decent addition to a weizen as well?

 

[techbrau]

Perhaps candi sugar would be a decent addition to a weizen as well?

You could do that. It isn't done in Germany because of the purity law, but they have a way around it. There is a special mash you can do that takes advantage of the maltase enzyme to break down a fraction of the maltose in wort into glucose. The mash is called the Herrmann-Verfahren mash, or the maltase mash. Here are a few references:

http://dafteejit.com/2015/08/optimizing-a-hefeweizen-mash-for-esters-and-phenols/

https://edelstoffquest.wordpress.com/2014/04/10/a-strange-kind-of-mash-technique/

 

[ncbrewer]

Sounds like no reason reason not to add half(or most?) of extract/sugar at or near flameout?

Be sure to account for the increased hop utilization to keep the proper bitterness.

From what I've read, adding 1/4 to 1/2 of the malt extract early is pretty common, and that's what I do.