Purity of homebrew vs Big Corp ingredients

[robint]

Hi Brew Buddies

I am impressed with the lengths that HBs go to ensure proper sanitation in the home gear etc. Its simple cheap and it works. I am sure that members are equally scrupulous about what ingredients they are putting into their Wort. You know what you are doing.

The same cannot be said for Joe Public and the exposure to Big Corp Drinks industry practice. Our naive consumers both across the pond and in Europe are aware that food and soft drinks are compulsorily labelled with a list of ingredients, BUT the alcoholic drinks industry has managed to robustly avoid any requirement to list the ingredients in their products. They were simply forced to state the ABV and also the recommended alcohol unit allowance (to assist with drink driving laws). We therefore, ( excluding obviously the German purity laws well known by all) have no idea what other chemicals are added. I believe some wine producers in the EU note their product contain bisulfite as consumers maybe allergic to SO2 gas.

This is the reason for my OP here

Are any members aware of unnatural chemicals used in the drinks industry that may have filtered into our home brewing circles? I think we can ignore the traditional potable water conditioning non-organic chemicals

For example

Sweeteners, Xylitol, Aspertame, Acesulfame K, Glucosamine, Erythrytol, Stevia, Sucralose, Corn syrup etc

Food colourings E numbers

Caffeine

Flavour enhancers HCl, Phosphoric acid, common table salt , caramel coloring

Vaping chemicals etc Nicotine

Anti - Foaming agents Silicon based, vegetable oil

Heading agent Glycerol, propylene glycol

Sodium benzoate, Potassium sorbate

Any other chemicals of concern?

My personal experience - no disrespect to what may have been a proud brewing tradition.

Our local shop stocks a large range of Polish canned lager so I thought I would sample the variety and I also looked up their provenance. Traditionally these were high strength products 6-8.5% ABV with a range of types from Blonde to Dark Lagers. Bottom line
I discontinued my tastings after a while as I found a "morning after" type headache was the result of some light tasting with pals (and I do mean only a 1/2 can of each type in the course of an evening meet - 3 cans total.

I now contrast that with my recent revival of home brewing to replicate the Middle European style of kvass and produced a creditable Brown Ale style ca 4.5%ABV max. Having adjusted to the unfamiliar but agreeable taste - my next morning effect was remarkably clear and wholesome. I believe that we tasted to roughly the same level of happiness ABVwise

So I concluded that there were some unpleasant cogeners at work resulting from ancient under invested breweries and practices over there. A Euro pal told me that its the way they like their crude brews and have resisted cleaner methods.

Anyone else noticed this?

 

[Kickass]

I get the intent of this post is to find out what’s in our beverages, and I don’t want to crap on that. I bet it’s more than we know.

Some additional thoughts.

Are any members aware of unnatural chemicals used in the drinks industry that may have filtered into our home brewing circles?

some of the ingredients you listed seem quite natural. I don’t think I want the vegetable oil in my beer but the others, why not?

Sucralose, Corn syrup

common table salt

vegetable oil

Using the human body to gauge abv or test other affects is horribly flawed. There are so many tangible variables that affect how we feel 12 or 24 hours from now. Then, let the mind run wild with biases and placebo, all bets are off.

 

[sibelman]

I'm not seeing this as a thought problem. I respect the feeling that OP reports after consuming Polish beer, but speculation/anecdotes about why that happened is no substitute for data.

We know that labeling and inspection requirements reduce the concerns about undesired ingredients and methods - we "just" need to include alcoholic beverages in the regimen that applies to other food and drink makers. The fact that the alcohol is a known toxin should not provide a fig leaf to brewers, distillers, or winemakers.

 

[MaxStout]

Sweeteners, Xylitol, Aspertame, Acesulfame K, Glucosamine, Erythrytol, Stevia, Sucralose,

A few of these are used by home brewers to back sweeten beverages with something the yeast won't ferment.

Food colourings E numbers

Some of those dyes have been banned, due to cancer links. Some others are still on the market, but with some warnings. For those concerned, there are some plant-based food colorings available, e.g., Watkins.

Caffeine

Coffee beers.

Flavour enhancers HCl, Phosphoric acid, common table salt , caramel coloring

Phosphoric acid is used to lower pH in the mash. Some no-rinse sanitizers use phosphoric, and traces of that may remain on brewing equipment. Table salt may be added in small amounts to add or bring out certain flavors. Caramel coloring may be used by home brewers in the form of invert sugars or syrups.

Vaping chemicals etc Nicotine

Never heard of that one, though somebody's probably tried it.

Anti - Foaming agents Silicon based, vegetable oil

Silicone-based antifoaming agents, like Fermcap S. Added in small amounts to prevent boilovers.

Heading agent Glycerol, propylene glycol

Not aware of that being used at the home brew level. Most use adjuncts, dextrin malts or maltodextrin to increase head retention and body.

Sodium benzoate, Potassium sorbate

Sorbate is added to stop fermentation, usually in conjunction with metabisulfite. Benzoate is a preservative (and will probably stop or stun fermentation, as well), though I haven't seen much discussion of home brewers using it.

Any other chemicals of concern?

Some fining agents, like gelatin and isinglass are derived from animals. While not considered inherently harmful, they are not vegan. There are plant-based alternatives that work well, such as Irish moss.

 

[mac_1103]

Almost everything listed in the OP is GRAS - generally regarded as safe. It's entirely appropriate to be at least somewhat suspicious of the various government agencies that make those determinations, but if that's where one is coming from then there are all sorts of things one would worry about before beer.

 

[MaxStout]

In the end, it's YOUR beer. You decide what you do and don't want in it. Nobody here will judge you for that, and if leaving something out gives you peace of mind, then by all means, do it.

 

[jschein]

In the end, it's YOUR beer. You decide what you do and don't want in it. Nobody here will judge you for that, and if leaving something out gives you peace of mind, then by all means, do it.

I don’t know, it’s Thanksgiving day so judgement is always on the table

 

[robint]

@Kickass
Using the human body to gauge abv or test other affects is horribly flawed. There are so many tangible variables that affect how we feel 12 or 24 hours from now. Then, let the mind run wild with biases and placebo, all bets are off.

Yes quite right - I just posted it as an anecdote - because it inspired me to brew my own. Mornings are sweetness and light

I know what I put in my worts and my body feels happy with it.

I raised this OP for discussion as I have a deep suspicion of Big Corp methods and the ruthless pursuit of profit whatever the consequences on the consumer (as per Tobacco lobby)

Ask your selves why the Brewers and vintners are sooooooo averse to declaring their ingredients - why should they be allowed to exempt themselves? What have they got to hide.?

Consider this evil influence

Compulsory markings on alcoholic products include the "bottle symbol" and the number of Units. Ask Joe Public what that means and most will say that its a health recommendation ie dont drink more the 6 units per week (or similar). Well thats an attention grabber isnt it?
What it really means is concerned with Road Safety and drink/driving. Most tipplers get it wrong - 1 unit is ca 1/2 pint of beer. Road safety normally advises no more than 4 units in 2 hours (given that an adult will burn off 1 unit per hour). Joe Public thinks a unit is a pint and he can slurp 4 pints OK? Big Corp wants you to keep up the chugalug so doesnt explain clearly the purpose of a Unit. See the devious tactics.

Not wishing to seem sanctimonious here - simply a wish to be able to make informed decisions and not be deliberately blinded by Big Corp marketing mongrels ravenous pursuit of profit at my expense

Long may Home Brewing flourish (as it did for centuries in Europe)

 

[robint]

@mac_1103 Erm arent figs an age old type of laxative so your cider may have unintended consequences

 

[AlexKay]

 

[stamandster]

I mean... technically is alcohol a poison. Also, some have made brews with hops "cousin" mary jane. However, I do agree that retails beers should declare ingredients to be found in the final product (I'm not talking about mineral/nutrient content), even if they aren't declared in amounts such as for retail food consumption. Simply, "barley, hops, water, etc." is enough. Good or bad, alcohol isn't governed by the same agency as retail foods.

But, playing the "other side advocate" when we go out to eat, we don't get a "list" of all component ingredients made in the meal. We generally take the risk that the meal has all of whatever might be out there, unless we ask (for instance gluten, peanut, etc. sensitivity/allergy) or it's noted for people with severe allergies (but that's not a mandatory declaration).

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

@Kickass
Using the human body to gauge abv or test other affects is horribly flawed. There are so many tangible variables that affect how we feel 12 or 24 hours from now. Then, let the mind run wild with biases and placebo, all bets are off.

Yes quite right - I just posted it as an anecdote - because it inspired me to brew my own. Mornings are sweetness and light

I know what I put in my worts and my body feels happy with it.

I raised this OP for discussion as I have a deep suspicion of Big Corp methods and the ruthless pursuit of profit whatever the consequences on the consumer (as per Tobacco lobby)

Ask your selves why the Brewers and vintners are sooooooo averse to declaring their ingredients - why should they be allowed to exempt themselves? What have they got to hide.?

Consider this evil influence

Compulsory markings on alcoholic products include the "bottle symbol" and the number of Units. Ask Joe Public what that means and most will say that its a health recommendation ie dont drink more the 6 units per week (or similar). Well thats an attention grabber isnt it?
What it really means is concerned with Road Safety and drink/driving. Most tipplers get it wrong - 1 unit is ca 1/2 pint of beer. Road safety normally advises no more than 4 units in 2 hours (given that an adult will burn off 1 unit per hour). Joe Public thinks a unit is a pint and he can slurp 4 pints OK? Big Corp wants you to keep up the chugalug so doesnt explain clearly the purpose of a Unit. See the devious tactics.

Not wishing to seem sanctimonious here - simply a wish to be able to make informed decisions and not be deliberately blinded by Big Corp marketing mongrels ravenous pursuit of profit at my expense

Long may Home Brewing flourish (as it did for centuries in Europe)
View attachment 863422

I think your post would be better suited in the Debate section or Rants.

 

[HM-2]

By "Polish canned lager", I assume you mean stuff like Karpackie and Debowe Mocne?

These are basically Special Brew bin juice for the Polish expatriate market. A European equivalent to Colt 45 or Steel Reserve.
Which is why they cost like £2 a can despite being north of 7% ABV. That says a lot about the quality of process and ingredients.

 

[Broken Crow]

For the most part, you're preaching to the converted. The main point of this whole site is to be a forum for those who want 'good beer' and the majority on here don't buy the Big Monster Corporation drek. Apart from the beverages folk come to this site for, there's the whole consumption experience in general; smoked meat, sausages, bread and even pizza. I'd bet a majority on this site don't eat the BMC fast-foods either. Everyone who cares to pay attention to the details of their own lifestyle has learned already that the rich BMC's don't care one jot about the health of others and that's why this site exists.
If you're making the choice to buy that stuff, you must know that you're only helping it to proliferate.
I sanitize with Star San which breaks down to simple common 'microbe food' such as is found in nature, I brew with clean water, barley, hops, yeast, and occasionally wheat or oats....I don't use any junk in my beer that I don't want there and I don't choose to ingest BMC junk. What's the problem?

 

[hotbeer]

I am impressed with the lengths that HBs go to ensure proper sanitation in the home gear etc. Its simple cheap and it works. I am sure that members are equally scrupulous about what ingredients they are putting into their Wort.

Those statements only apply to some.

I've been aghast with some of the things I've read people put in their beer. As well as how little they clean. Especially some of the videos people post of their brewing and seeing the filth all around them.

As for what the big time commercial brewer's do, I'm sure that just like us, there are some I'd be impressed with and some I'd be aghast.

 

[robint]

@hotbeer Yes Bro right on
When you go back to basics of true home brew you realise what junk you have been pressured to consume by Big Corp Brewers.

TBH I havent been in a pub UK for 5 years since Covid started and have completely lost the attraction. Most have closed down. I have flashbacks of strange chemical flavours and excessive carbonation. I was also acutely aware of how dirty lines and a lazy landlord (landladies are the worst as they dont drink beer) who cant be assd to keep a clean cellar. One notable Best bitter regularly named as sore botty bitter cos of the need for urgent embarrasing scratching? KWIM

Very much more work for real ale casks BTW - another story there.

So my curating attempts at a humble British Brown Ale/Kvass style are proving very promising/simple and economical given my ever decreasing spending power
Almost too good to be true IMHO. Its hazy but crazy Brew Buddies. The haze doesnt appear to affect flavour or digestion (any more than milk in a cup of tea). I am sure it would become very clarified if left in say 5C for a month.

I cant access grain readily in quantity, no HB stores in Kent SE UK. My whole neighbourhood has lost all interest in such hobbies (probably growing wacky backy in the garden sheds instead these days - lots of those around)

 

[Jim R]

I would bet that the chemical that has been consumed in Big Corp beer that has caused the most overall harm to the world's population is, in fact, alcohol. It is what it is.

 

[sibelman]

most overall harm

Yes, of course, but OP is interested in other potential health factors. Not a silly concern, imho. Driving is dangerous because of crashes, beer because of alcohol, but one can sensibly also consider lesser risks.

 

[worlddivides]

Yes, of course, but OP is interested in other potential health factors. Not a silly concern, imho. Driving is dangerous because of crashes, beer because of alcohol, but one can sensibly also consider lesser risks.

I hardly think the "big corp" breweries are putting knowingly harmful substances into their beers. I mean, why would they? It's not like that'd make the beers cheaper, and if it ended up hurting or killing their customers, that would cost them more money. Just sounds like unfounded paranoia. I'd be willing to bet that the big corp breweries are far "safer" than homebrewing on the whole, especially from some of the threads I've seen of overly adventurous homebrewers putting potentially dangerous ingredients in their beers.

That said, "purity" is not something I consider a benefit in beer. The Reinheitsgebot is anathema to what I want in beers (yes, there are plenty of delicious beers that adhere to those laws, of course, but I prefer experimentation and not being limited to what you can and can't put in your beers).

 

[HM-2]

OP is also drinking 3 500ml cans of 8% high strength, low cost macro lager- by my maths about 12 units of alcohol, a bit under half a bottle of vodka equivalent- and wondering why he feels worse for wear in the mornings.

-Edit: maffs.

 

[bwible]

I hardly think the "big corp" breweries are putting knowingly harmful substances into their beers. I mean, why would they? It's not like that'd make the beers cheaper, and if it ended up hurting or killing their customers, that would cost them more money. Just sounds like unfounded paranoia. I'd be willing to bet that the big corp breweries are far "safer" than homebrewing on the whole, especially from some of the threads I've seen of overly adventurous homebrewers putting potentially dangerous ingredients in their beers.

That said, "purity" is not something I consider a benefit in beer. The Reinheitsgebot is anathema to what I want in beers (yes, there are plenty of delicious beers that adhere to those laws, of course, but I prefer experimentation and not being limited to what you can and can't put in your beers).

I never understood the “need” (and it seems like many have a real need) to constantly “bash” the “big brewers”. “BMC” - the big three everybody loves to hate on. All the deragatory comments about them and their “swill” that “we’ve so righteously risen above.”

The truth is these are extremely successful corporations, most with world wide presence, who sell billion$$ worth of beer annually. With laboratories and state of the art facilities and great minds. If their beer sucked that bad nobody would be buying it.

Somebody gets their hands on a plastic bucket and learns to brew a few gallons at a time and all of a sudden they know more and better. I’ve seen it over and over and over again.

 

[Dland]

I've noticed that some beers produced more of a hangover for me than others, for equivalent amount of beer and alcohol consumed. As a lifetime regular, and likely over consumer of beer, I noticed this long before I started brewing my own. I learned I was better off staying away from Bud as apposed to ( the original) Rolling Rock, for instance. Going way back, even some beers I enjoyed the taste of I knew I would produce more of a headache than they were worth if I had more than a few, Bass Ale comes to mind, but was not the only one.

These days I drink my own brew almost exclusively, and drink as much or more beer than I used to when I purchased it, and I don't really get headaches from it even when I over indulge a bit. Most of my brews come out 6% and above ABV, so it's not just the alcohol that is a factor. The fact I tend to brew beers that have mostly fermentable sugars and are well attenuated may be a factor.

Besides the possibility of additives, I think there are some compounds such as phenols, some esters, and the like, that yeast develop under some conditions that can contribute to pain and fog the morning after. The strain of yeast may also be a factor. Perhaps things happen to beer when is canned, transported warm and not fresh also contribute, maybe some of the plastics that line can break down.

About two years ago I made some beer that got contaminated with a different yeast than what I intended, and it turned out to be a clove bomb. After aging it over a year, much of the clove taste went away, and the flavor was quite good, if complex. However, having more than two pints of this produced a noticeable headache, and I usually drink 3 or 4 pints every evening. This was from a simple blonde ale recipe that I'd brewed many times, originally pitched with US-05.

While all of the above is anecdotal, it is based on decades of experience, and I've talked to several other beer enthusiasts who agree with my observations.

OP is also drinking 3 500ml cans of 8% high strength, low cost macro lager- by my maths about 15 units of alcohol, about half a bottle of vodka equivalent- and wondering why he feels worse for wear in the mornings.

Three 500ml cans equals 15 units of alcohol? maybe check your math(s). ;]

 

[mac_1103]

I hardly think the "big corp" breweries are putting knowingly harmful substances into their beers. I mean, why would they?

Better question - why wouldn't they do everything they can to avoid it? 'Cuz liability and all, you know? What you need to worry about with these kinds of questions IMO is how much the manufacturer of whatever is doing to keep small quantities of bad stuff out of the product, since there does come a point where the risk of getting sued is less than the cost of being extraordinarily fastidious.

 

[WouldBeBrewmaster]

In the US, the TTB has a list of approved ingredients that can go into a commercial beer. If a brewer wants to use a non-approved ingredient, they have to file their formula and have it approved by the TTB. https://www.ttb.gov/beer/exempt-ingre

 

[HM-2]

Three 500ml cans equals 15 units of alcohol? maybe check your math(s). ;]

Sorry, twelve. Still a not-insubstantial proportion of a 70cl vodka bottle, and probably not what I would consider a "light tasting".

 

[mac_1103]

I never understood the “need” (and it seems like many have a real need) to constantly “bash” the “big brewers”. “BMC” - the big three everybody loves to hate on. All the deragatory comments about them and their “swill” that “we’ve so righteously risen above.”

I have nothing against the big boys and have tremendous respect for what they do. I just don't particularly care for the product anymore. Except the High Life; I'll gladly quaff a few cold ones of that on a hot day.

 

[sibelman]

Speaking of anecdotal evidence that some drinks cause more hangover, alcohol content being equal: my impression has been that sweet drinks are worse. Maybe applies to sweeter beers as well as mixed drinks.

 

[mac_1103]

I don't remember the last time I had a hangover, even though I still often go to bed expecting to wake up with one. The hangovers I do remember all involved drinking several different types of alcoholic beverage.

 

[bwible]

I have nothing against the big boys and have tremendous respect for what they do. I just don't particularly care for the product anymore. Except the High Life; I'll gladly quaff a few cold ones of that on a hot day.

Still one of my favorites as well.

 

[Broken Crow]

I never understood the “need” (and it seems like many have a real need) to constantly “bash” the “big brewers”. “BMC” - the big three everybody loves to hate on. All the deragatory comments about them and their “swill” that “we’ve so righteously risen above.”

The truth is these are extremely successful corporations, most with world wide presence, who sell billion$$ worth of beer annually. With laboratories and state of the art facilities and great minds. If their beer sucked that bad nobody would be buying it.

Somebody gets their hands on a plastic bucket and learns to brew a few gallons at a time and all of a sudden they know more and better. I’ve seen it over and over and over again.

View attachment 863503

I actually agree with you... I didn't intend to 'BMC-bash' but I don't do 'context' very well these days. I get a bit long-winded talking about rather than just saying: "Caveat Emptor", or like we said in the 80's: "Vote with your dollars". Everyone has their own tastes and interests. I love my Stanley, Snap-On and Delta tools, my Sony TV, Yamaha amp, Tropicana OJ and so on.
I'm just not the type to go to the doctor and say; "Doctor, my hand hurts every time I punch a concrete wall!"