Pull up a Beer, help me decide?

[LBussy]

For the life of me I cannot decide what sort of system to go about making. Let's leave automation out of the discussion (only for now!) and maybe some of you more experienced folks can help me figure out what direction to point? Fly sparge, no sparge, e-BIAb ... I can't focus long enough to decide based on merits.

Here's the stuff I've been able to list out in between ogling shiny brewery builds:

Needs:

• Speed
• Ability to do 10g batch
• Ability to do high gravity batch
• Consistency
• Use currrent kettles (keggles)
• No welding

Considerations

• Can use up to 50A
• Not opposed to propane boil

What do you think? Help me form some coherent thoughts? I've been reading all day and I've seen cool things but I'm no better off than I was.

 

[Transamguy77]

I'm assuming you want a simple system since you didn't want to talk about automation? No pumps and works on gravity? If no welding what materials were you thinking? Do you have a budget for this build?

 

[LBussy]

I'm a computer guy and brew with a controls engineer so there will be some automation. I'm just not sure what to automate yet. The budget really comes in when automation comes in I think ... So I'm back with "automate what?"

I did not mention pumps because I intend to make it complicated after you help steer me in some direction or another.

 

[-CHRIS-]

What is your definition of speed? I have a 3 vessel eHERMS system built out of keggles. 5 and 10 gallon batches both come out well. A big 10 gallon beer isn't possible due to mash tun size limitations. I love it, but a typical brew day is around 6 hours including setup and cleaning.

I am intrigued by the single vessel BIAB systems

Chris

 

[kh54s10]

Since you said speed is a needed requirement you can count out fly sparging.
Consistency might rule out no sparge. At least from what I know about it you can expect lower efficiency.

So, while I cannot lead you to a solution you might start by eliminating certain rigs.

 

[LBussy]

I'd love to have a 4-5 hour brew day. Six is not too bad. I'm okay with high-gravs being limited to 5 gals as they wont be as frequent. I was thinking about e-BIAB but I was not sure if I could get 10 gals of normal gravity out of it.

Three vessel e-HERMS are plain sexy, but if I don't need it .... See where I'm headed? So we crossed off fly sparge anyway.

 

[Yooper]

What is your definition of speed? I have a 3 vessel eHERMS system built out of keggles. 5 and 10 gallon batches both come out well. A big 10 gallon beer isn't possible due to mash tun size limitations. I love it, but a typical brew day is around 6 hours including setup and cleaning.

I am intrigued by the single vessel BIAB systems

Chris

I have a 3 vessel eHERMS as well. I can do 5-11 gallon sized batches without any issues. If I mash in at 10 AM, I'd done by 3:30. The thing is- I can batch sparge OR fly sparge.

For fly sparging, you need two pumps if on a single tier. I happen to have two pumps, but I do batch sparge fairly often just to save time.

I'd love to have a 4-5 hour brew day. Six is not too bad. I'm okay with high-gravs being limited to 5 gals as they wont be as frequent. I was thinking about e-BIAB but I was not sure if I could get 10 gals of normal gravity out of it.

Three vessel e-HERMS are plain sexy, but if I don't need it .... See where I'm headed? So we crossed off fly sparge anyway.

The thing with e-BIAB is going to be the weight of the grainbag. You have to have a decent pulley set up if you're going to do 10 gallon sized batches. If you are doing a medium to high gravity 10 gallon batch, you'll have 25-30 pounds of grain plus water weight. I could never lift that. So I have a tippy dump on my MLT, so I can just turn it over and dump it (and I use a bag, even in the traditional system).

So think about what limitations you might have if doing BIAB vs a 3 vessel system, and if you want a single tier or if a two-tier (so you can use gravity) would do the trick.

 

[-CHRIS-]

For fly sparging, you need two pumps if on a single tier. I happen to have two pumps, but I do batch sparge fairly often just to save time.

I actually use a peristaltic pump for sparging. I have tried a 30 minute fly sparge on a 5 gallon batch with no apparent loss of efficiency. My efficiency generally is around 88%.

Chris

 

[Saboral]

I do fly sparges on my single tier but I use large measuring container to catch the fly sparge and lift/dump into my boil kettle

 

[atoughram]

You've described a plethora of systems including mine here. Three sanke kegs, mine is a mix of welded and weldless fittings, two pumps, mine is a RIMS, and I'm all electric and loving it. The maximum poundage of grain in a Sanke MLT is 28-30 pounds (And even that is pushing it.) as Yooper pointed out - and it limits the gravity on 10 gallon batches to 1.070-080.

I can do either a batch sparge or modified fly sparge but I've never taken 30 minutes to sparge. My efficiency with all barley is around 80% and when it's half wheat, a little less. I'd just rather add some grain than chase an efficiency number.

As far as controls go, I've got PID's on the HLT and RIM's MLT, and SSVR on the BK - it operates very similar to propane during the boil.

Brew day's are spent mostly cleaning - i can get a batch brewed and the equipment clean and put away in six hours if I'm hoofing it.

 

[BrunDog]

The OP's criteria are pretty wide open. As a result you will get a wide range of answers. If you give us some more boundaries and describe what hardware you already have specifically, we can probably help you more.

At first blush, it looks like BIAB is the best fit for you. That said, I'm biased toward a 2 vessel rig!

 

[LBussy]

See I was thinking a three kettle was where I was headed with the flexibility it would offer. BIAB speaks to part of me, but coils are ... well coils are sexy. Ever since the 80's where girls would wear all those bangles on their wrists ....

I don't necessarily need or want tiered brewing but my thought is I would start with a keg come mash tun (what do we call those, tuggles?). I could do as I have always done and as one of the posts above mentions; use a container to vorlauf and then sparge manually into a keggle. It sucks but it's a place to start right? I'm not brewing now so this will be a brew while I build effort. I'm not trying to avoid a pump but having to buy EVERYTHING up front is something I am trying to avoid.

Step after that is to tier the mash tun into the kettle, or the HLT (turkey fryer setup) into the mash tun. Then add HERMS (I have decided on HERMS I *think*) and a pump of course. At this point I can manually sparge (or no-sparge), and the pump recircs and pumps to the keggle. There's a single control loop.

What do you think ... am I on *a* right track? Can you guys and gals help me with any qualifying questions that might point out things I'm missing or failing to consider?

 

[BrunDog]

I think you should browse the forum for a while and see what really resonates with you. Build your system incrementally, as you have already mentioned.

 

[LBussy]

I think you should browse the forum for a while and see what really resonates with you. Build your system incrementally, as you have already mentioned.

I've *been* browsing this forum for a while. The problem is everything resonates because I love gadgetry of all sorts. My list is my best effort at really defining what I want/need.

The more I read, the more all the choices are like shiny quarters ....

Someone (not me clearly) should make a questionnaire that guides people (okay, guides ME) to the right decision. It doesn't matter what I choose, I'll end up with a screened-door airplane capable of submarine travel.

 

[BrunDog]

Phunny. Honest, but funny. Ya it's tough, and this forum proves there are endless ways to make beer. At the end of the day it's nothing more than putting grain in hot water, straining it, then boiling it.

But truthfully you should pick a direction when you are ready. If you can't decide between propane or electric, or BIAB or 3 vessel, you need to spend more time researching until the pros and cons have directed you. Obviously people have different needs/wants, otherwise one wouldn't exist!

Don't rush it, take your time. When you have some clarity, we'll be here to help with the details!

 

[LBussy]

I can say that something about BIAB "seems" wrong ... like it should not work. Likewise RIMS. Since automating BIAB is most often a pseudo-RIMS setup I can probably cross that off. I mean the "hrm ... " part of me want to try it but the guy who has been brewing since 1989 wants more control than that.

As far as propane vs. electric, I was just throwing out there that I have burners to fill in but ultimately would like to be all-electric.

 

[BrunDog]

Ok, now you have lost me. Given gosh-knows how many thousands of BIAB rigs there are, and how many thousands of RIMS systems there are, there is a substantial base of evidence how well these actually work!

 

[LBussy]

Ok, now you have lost me. Given gosh-knows how many thousands of BIAB rigs there are, and how many thousands of RIMS systems there are, there is a substantial base of evidence how well these actually work!

I don't thinK I said they do not, I said that the guy who has been brewing since 1989 wants more control ... as in wants more controls ... as in wants to do more work ....

It's not necessarily "truth", it's what I feel. You (and others) have implied I have to go with what resonates, right? Well RIMS and BIAB don't - that's the good news, right? It helps me cross things off.

 

[BrunDog]

True! So then by default it must be a 3 vessel.

 

[decoleur]

Take a look at a Brutus 20.

 

[WScottCross]

My recommendation is that you should start with BIAB. It has a relatively low startup cost, which you stated was an important factor. You can then brew on that while you consider what you do/don't like about that and purchase additional equipment if necessary to migrate to a 2 or 3 vessel system. That's pretty much the route I went and I have no regrets about it. I am now using a 3 vessel 30 gallon eHERMS and am quite happy with it. Once I decided to upgrade to the 3 vessel, I decided to go big since it allows me the freedom to brew up to 20 gallon batches with 15 gallon being the most frequent batch size for me. I did MANY upgrades before I decided to quit messing around and go big. Think long and hard about your max batch size before you plunk done your hard earned cash on a system.

 

[LBussy]

True! So then by default it must be a 3 vessel.

See?! You said you guys couldn;t help till I read more.

Take a look at a Brutus 20.

I will do so, thank you.

 

[LBussy]

I have a question for those of you who graciously are assisting me ..

My ASS-U-Me-tion (yes I know that's spelled wrong) is that an eBIAB system has some inherent issues with heat control - I have a hard time imagining a system with a single element internal to the kettle having enough flow to prevent temp stratification. Am I all wet?

 

[Yooper]

I have a question for those of you who graciously are assisting me ..

My ASS-U-Me-tion (yes I know that's spelled wrong) is that an eBIAB system has some inherent issues with heat control - I have a hard time imagining a system with a single element internal to the kettle having enough flow to prevent temp stratification. Am I all wet?

Maybe. (Hows that for help? )

Because an eBIAB can still be two vessels, and use HERMS. Or a RIMS.

If you're thinking of one big kettle, as some BIABers have, then maybe it may have some issues with heat control, but then a RIMS could solve that.

The only real downside I can think of with a BIAB system is that the weight of the wet grain can be HEAVY (and hot) and perhaps needs a pulley system that can be a bit messy, and require some sort of support on the ceiling/ladder/whatever.

If you're doing small batches, then that's not a big deal. But if you're doing a 11 gallon batch of 1.080 wort, then it's a much bigger deal.

 

[BeardedIdiot]

I have a question for those of you who graciously are assisting me ..

My ASS-U-Me-tion (yes I know that's spelled wrong) is that an eBIAB system has some inherent issues with heat control - I have a hard time imagining a system with a single element internal to the kettle having enough flow to prevent temp stratification. Am I all wet?

If you're going to build an eBIAB system, its not that hard to add a pump and recirculate (most that I've seen incorporate pumps for this reason). This would eliminate most any concerns about stratification.

 

[LBussy]

Maybe. (Hows that for help? )

I've learned to expect a certain level of quality Yoop ...

If you're going to build an eBIAB system, its not that hard to add a pump and recirculate (most that I've seen incorporate pumps for this reason). This would eliminate most any concerns about stratification.

Hrm ... that sounds like it might be a decent stop towards a three-vessel, and it gives me answers to my questions firsthand.

 

[BrunDog]

If you do one element BIAB, use a pump to recirc and put the element as low in the kettle as possible to make sure the heated wort gets pumped through.

If you want to really do it right, insulate your kettle and have your controller switch the element power between 240 (boil) and 120VAC (mash).

 

[BeardedIdiot]

Hrm ... that sounds like it might be a decent stop towards a three-vessel, and it gives me answers to my questions firsthand.

I currently do single vessel BIAB on propane. I am in the planning stages of converting to electric, but I am going to stay with BIAB and will recirculate. I think that it gives me plenty of control over my process, while maintaining a small footprint, minimizing cost, and keeping a simple, efficient brew-day.

I like that when I'm done brewing, I just have one vessel to clean.

 

[decoleur]

Also I would add that the Colorado Brewing BIAB solution is something to think about.
http://www.cobrewingsystems.com/collections/frontpage/products/nano-brewer-home-electric-brew-system

They do good work and are very responsive.

hope this helps.

 

[LBussy]

So just for discussion purposes, here's my brew weekend with no automation and no fancy equipment:

We did a 10 gallon batch, pot and cooler, double-batch sparge batch of English IPA. Total grain bill was 22 lbs and we ended up with 95% conversion efficiency. We stopped well before 1.010 runoff. Had I been prepared we would have kept going and canned some starter.

Brewhouse efficiency into the fermenter was 85% - pretty happy with that since we have no method of hop-trub separation other than a half-@$$ed whirlpool and gravity.

Time from turning on the tap to fill the HLT to pitching the yeast was 5.5 hours. Two significant time savers was using the house's hot water to start with, and the Blichmann burner which puts out awesome heat you can actually use.

So that's what I would be trying to automate/improve upon. And have more fun with. And have more time to drink with.

We did this at my buddies house in Wichita. I came back to KC with a pitched 5 gallon carboy in the front seat just starting to chug (at about the 4 hour mark). I gotta tell you that made me highly nervous. It was a VERY strong starter and we hit it with O2 before pitching. Pretty sure it got some good agitation there in the truck too.