Proposed Style Guidelines. Cascadian Dark Ale

[ShortSnoutBrewing]

To be fair...Yes, Cascadian Dark Ale is somewhat new, but not this past week. I first heard it being used in June/July of last year. But then again, I'm in Portland where the movement was started.

I'm a little shocked at the amount of hostility being expressed here for the "idea" of creating a style. Yeah, sure maybe CDA isn't quite right...but I think there is merit to creating a style. Or maybe this is evidence that the BJCP shouldn't even be in existence and we go back to the days of just ales and lagers...At least that's what I'm hearing from most of your responses.

 

[Synovia]

To be fare...Yes, Cascadian Dark Ale is somewhat new, but not this past week. I first heard it being used in June/July of last year. But then again, I'm in Portland where the movement was started.

I'm a little shocked at the amount of hostility being expressed here for the "idea" of creating a style. Yeah, sure maybe CDA isn't quite right...but I think there is merit to creating a style. Or maybe this is evidence that the BJCP shouldn't even be in existence and we go back to the days of just ales and lagers...At least that's what I'm hearing from most of your responses.

I don't think anyone has an issue with a "Black IPA" type beer style.


The problem is the description and title are ridiculous. Like someone said earlier, might as well put "Must be brewed in Oregon" in the description.

 

[jmo88]

Creating a new style for the CDA sounds fine to me. I can see how others not in the PNW might not see the need for it, though. But 80% of the breweries and good pubs you go to around here have this style. When it is becoming that popular, it just makes sense. If you are on the East coast and only one bar you know of has it, then I can see why you would think its just a darker-colored IPA.

 

[Scooby_Brew]

"Black IPAs".

If it's "Black" then it's not "Pale". If it's "American" Then it's not "India".
But on the other hand, we do have "giant shrimp" and "vegetarian meatballs". Let's just accurately estimate and agree to disagree

 

[ShortSnoutBrewing]

The problem is the description and title are ridiculous. Like someone said earlier, might as well put "Must be brewed in Oregon" in the description.

Why? What about it gives you that impression? Because it says NW hops are used? Have you looked at any BJCP guideline? Don't they all state what style hops, grains, etc should be used? The proposed guidelines also state other hope varieties can be used. It's just giving props to the region where most folks believe the style came to be. Take that out, would you be happy?

 

[Synovia]

If it's "Black" then it's not "Pale". If it's "American" Then it's not "India".
But on the other hand, we do have "giant shrimp" and "vegetarian meatballs". Let's just accurately estimate and agree to disagree

Neither is any standard IPA today.

 

[carnevoodoo]

If it's "Black" then it's not "Pale". If it's "American" Then it's not "India".
But on the other hand, we do have "giant shrimp" and "vegetarian meatballs". Let's just accurately estimate and agree to disagree

Sure, but the Imperial India Pale Ale is just as incorrect. I mean that never happened! The Black IPA works because it is a black version of a specific style which really is only named for history and not with how it is currently produced. American IPAs are very, very different than anything that might have ever been sent to India, but I'm sure you know that.

It is a black or dark version of an existing style. The IPA boom on the West Coast is where it is concentrated, sure, but so are IIPAs. Saying something is in tons of pubs in Portland is pretty silly because we all understand what the culture is like up there. But to make such a ridiculous name for it, no thanks.

If it would have been proposed as the Northwestern Black Ale, I'd even be less hesitant about it. Of course, that description would have to be less of a jerk-off fest and more about the actual style, but whatever.

 

[carnevoodoo]

Why? What about it gives you that impression? Because it says NW hops are used? Have you looked at any BJCP guideline? Don't they all state what style hops, grains, etc should be used? The proposed guidelines also state other hope varieties can be used. It's just giving props to the region where most folks believe the style came to be. Take that out, would you be happy?

Northwest hops... As opposed to the ones we grow in Southern California? You guys are the hop producing region for the country, so it seems a little redundant. You could just say American hop varieties.

 

[Edcculus]

If it's "Black" then it's not "Pale". If it's "American" Then it's not "India".
But on the other hand, we do have "giant shrimp" and "vegetarian meatballs". Let's just accurately estimate and agree to disagree

Well, technically IPA's aren't Indian, they are English. I have no qualm with using the work "India" to denote purposefully hoppy beers. I think India Dark Ale, American Dark Ale, or American Black Ale would be sufficient. India Dark would be good since it could encompass any hop variety the brewer wanted. American would limit to American hops, but that probably how 95% of these beers are brewed. Most hops are grown in the PNW anyways, so all of the references kind of come off as pretentious, whether it was written like that or not.

To be fair, you could throw in a statement in the "history" section about how it was popularized in the Pacific Northwest. I think on whole, nobody really gets the "Cascadian" term unless you are from the area. When I first saw it, I thought somebody really liked Narnia or something.

 

[the_bird]

To be fair, you could throw in a statement in the "history" section about how it was popularized in the Pacific Northwest. I think on whole, nobody really gets the "Cascadian" term unless you are from the area. When I first saw it, I thought somebody really liked Narnia or something.

I'm guilty on this. At first, I thought "Cascadian" was referring to the hop varitety, not the region. Guar-an-tee that if "Cascadian Dark Ale" becomes a style, there will be countless judges who insist that a CDA *must* include Cascade hops to be true to style.

 

[Edcculus]

I'm guilty on this. At first, I thought "Cascadian" was referring to the hop varitety, not the region. Guar-an-tee that if "Cascadian Dark Ale" becomes a style, there will be countless judges who insist that a CDA *must* include Cascade hops to be true to style.

Yea, my second reaction, after the Narnia thing was that it was only Cascades. I was confused, because I didn't remember Sublimely Self Righteous, the only "dark hoppy ale" I've had being a Cascade bomb.

 

[DrDirt]

Why not call it an American black ale?

I think most of the critics of this style description are put off by the repeated and restrictive references to the northwest. Eight references to NW? really? Eight?

I read through the BJCP guidelines for other styles. None of specify hop varieties repeatedly, with this degree of specificity. Many style guidelines offer recommendations for “noble hop varieties” or “American hop varieties”. None of the guidelines refer to a specific region for hops. Even the English ale descriptions note that American varieties can be used.

The BIG difference is that BJC guidelines describe the TASTE and AROMA of the hops used, rather than (repeatedly and bluntly) telling the brewer where the hops should come from i.e. floral, fruity, citrusy, spicy, earthy, minty, grassy, etc. So, if you want this style to smell and taste like cascade hops why not do us all a favor and describe the characteristics of PNW hop varieties and leave the marketing to the brewers.

 

[the_bird]

^^^ this ^^^

Agree. You nailed it.

American Black Ale. Moderately roasty, heavily hopped. Dry finish. High ABV.

 

[Edcculus]

Also, if its commercial brewers doing this, why not propose it to be a GABF style? Keep your marketing and snobbery out of the BJCP.

 

[NYCHomebrewer]

I have been seeing more and more of these entered into competitions over the last year or two. The problem, as I see it, is that if you enter them in the IPA category 14, you lose because you are out of style. So that leaves the specialty beer category 23, e.g. beers that don't fit anywhere else and has your Black IPA being judged against people's butt flavored beer, peppermint flavored beers and Imperial Mild Ales. It becomes a crap shoot.

I would imagine that more and more of these are going to be entered into Category 23 until either a new category 14D is added to the BJCP category or the 14 styles are expanded so that these black IPAs can be included under the current subcategories.

I don't care what it is called ultimately, but I think over the next couple of years it will deserve its own 14D subcategory. Although, its worth it to point out that the term "pale" when used to describe a pale ale or IPA has about as much descriptive accuracy as the term "bitter" when referring to an ESB or Ordinary Bitter. Pale is a historical term that was used to distinguish the style from Porters and Stouts. At the end of the day a "CDA" or "black IPA", despite its color, has a lot more in common flavorwise with IPAs then it does stouts or porters. Yet despite the historical origins of the term, you can file me under one of those who is just annoyed by the oxymoron "Black IPA."

Personally, I think the best description that includes a nod to its parent beer the IPA is India Black Ale. Just sweep all the beers from india style brown ales to india style black ales into the new category and expand the 14C category to include imperial versions. As to the inclusion of "NW hops"... it seems to me that if you are brewing a true English style beer, you should probably use english hops and yeasts, e.g. EKG. Can you make an award winning english ale using New Zealand hops? Sure, but you run the risk of being out of style. Likewise with American IPAs and the Black IPA is an American creation. The description should probably indicate that they typically use American hops. By definition, that will probably include a LOT of NW hops.

 

[remilard]

Creating a new style for the CDA sounds fine to me. I can see how others not in the PNW might not see the need for it, though. But 80% of the breweries and good pubs you go to around here have this style. When it is becoming that popular, it just makes sense.

The purpose of the BJCP is not to produce guidelines that describe commercially popular styles in any region.

Regardless, dark IPAs are brewed all over the country, the were brewed in Texas before Oregon, and nobody called them CDA until I would guess Hopworks, which has only been open about 2 years right?

 

[ShortSnoutBrewing]

None of specify hop varieties repeatedly, with this degree of specificity.

You may want to take a look at this again:

Aroma: Typically showcases the signature Northern Brewer hops (with woody, rustic or minty qualities) in moderate to high strength. Light fruitiness acceptable. Low to moderate caramel and/or toasty malt aromatics support the hops. No diacetyl.
...
Flavor: Moderately malty with a pronounced hop bitterness. The malt character is usually toasty (not roasted) and caramelly. Low to moderately high hop flavor, usually showing Northern Brewer qualities (woody, rustic, minty). Finish fairly dry and crisp, with a lingering hop bitterness and a firm, grainy malt flavor. Light fruity esters are acceptable, but otherwise clean. No diacetyl.
...
Overall Impression: A lightly fruity beer with firm, grainy maltiness, interesting toasty and caramel flavors, and showcasing the signature Northern Brewer varietal hop character.

 

[ShortSnoutBrewing]

the were brewed in Texas before Oregon, and nobody called them CDA until I would guess Hopworks, which has only been open about 2 years right?

Not doubting this at all...but where's the back up? I can't find any reference to TX and "black ipa" anywhere.

 

[Rhoobarb]

... The Vermont Brew Pub has had one for more than five years. ...

Actually, longer than that. It is pretty well known that the late Greg Noonan brewed what is now Blackwatch IPA, a dark India ale, during his first stint at VBP in the early 1990s. And to call it a dark pale ale is just stupid - like military intelligence or hot water heater.

No. It should actually be attributed to Vermont or, more fitting, Noonan himself. Since Greg Noonan made such an imprint in the world of microbrewing and homebrewing, I'd much rather see it named in his honor.

http://hillfarmstead.blogspot.com/2009/11/quiet-return-home.html

 

[the_bird]

You may want to take a look at this again:

Well, to be fair, that's because there's really only one commercial example of the California Common style, and Anchor Steam is known for using NB hops. If this was a more common commercial style, with commercial breweries using different varieties, I bet the guidelines would be written more broadly.

I'm cool with "American Black Ale" or "India Black Ale"; I think either expresses the key elements of this beer's sytle, without being unfairly location-specific or pretentious.

 

[mkling]

I think India Dark Ale, American Dark Ale, or American Black Ale would be sufficient. India Dark would be good since it could encompass any hop variety the brewer wanted.

I agree that any of these would be better than CDA. Personally, I really like the India Dark Ale because it is immediately obvious to anyone who knows just a little about beer what they should expect from such a beer -- and that's what the label should be about, clear communication. It would also encompass the India Brown Ales lots of people are making, which is good. As is, many, many India Brown Ales get submitted as American Brown ales in competitions even though they really don't fit the BJCP guidelines.

 

[the_bird]

Didn't know that it was really Noonan that did this first (or was one of the first). I've been meaning to brew "Creeping Death" for a while, maybe I'll pick up some Carafe Special and do that sooner rather than later. Got plenty of Amarillo, Centenial, and Cascade kicking around.

 

[DrDirt]

For your consideration...
I've taken the liberty of writing a style guideline for American Black Ale. To give credit where due, I consulted the OP for a basic idea of the intended style.

Maybe someone will post a poll comparing the two style descriptions?

AMERICAN BLACK ALE

Aroma: prominent hop aromas emphasize floral, citrus, and pine from traditional American hop varieties. Citrusy hop aroma is common but not required. Sweet malt character compliments hops, This style should present hints of roast, toast, and optionally, chocolate malt. Dry hopped character is often present. No diacetyl, notable fruity esters are inappropriate for this style.

Appearance: Dark brown to black, tan or white head.

Flavor: A balance between pine and spice hop flavors, with optional citrus, grassy or floral notes present but subdued. Mild to moderate bitterness associated with caramel, roast, and/or chocolate malts compliments hop flavor. Mild roast flavors should not detract from the hop emphasis. Roasted, burnt, or ashy, flavor is not appropriate. Caramel sweetness, if present, should be very mild and subdued, and should not detract from a dry finish. Diacetyl is inappropriate. Emphasis is on hop flavor, complimented but not overpowered by bitter, roast and sweet hints.

Mouthfeel: Light to medium, with prominent bitterness from both hops and roast malts creating dry mouthfeel. Optionally, resinous character associated with dry hopping compliments pine and spice aroma and flavor.

Overall Impression: A heavily hopped, light to medium bodied dark ale. Strong hop presence mimics an American IPA. American dark ale is not as full-bodied or malty as other common varieties or beer that are this dark. Strong hop bitterness and muted roast or caramel malt presence are more similar to IPA than strong ale, porter, or stouts. Taster should come away with an impression of a lighter and drier than expected, refreshing, hoppy beer.

History: A style originating in the American northeast in the late 20th century, it came to prominence on the Northwest coast of America in the early 21st century.

Comments: To reduce roast bitterness, some brewers cold-steep dark grains. Alternatively, darker grains may be added at the end of the mash to incorporate dark color with minimal roast bitterness. The emphasis is on IPA type base flavor and aroma, with nuances of caramel and roast malt adding, rather than overpowering the base style.

Ingredients: Pale or pilsner malt, medium caramel malt (20-80L) may be used in small quantities. Roasted malts are necessary, and often de-bittered black malts are used. American hop varieties, especially those grown in the pacific northwest, or hops with similar pine, spice and floral character are used for bittering and flavor. Dry-hopping is common.

IBUs 50-90+
Color: 25-40+ SRM
OG: 1.050-1.075
FG: 1.008-1.016

 

[Rhoobarb]

Didn't know that it was really Noonan that did this first (or was one of the first). ...

Yeah. About three years ago I brewed this recipe and screwed up roasting the three lbs. of "roasted 2-row". I ended up with some black grains on the bottom of my roasting pan. I went ahead and brewed with them anyway and the resulting beer was tasty! I thought I had created something! Then I did a bit of research and found out Noonan had done it and, alas, I was no trailblazer.

 

[phasedweasel]

History: A style that came to prominence on the Northwest Coast of North America in the early 21st century.

History: A style originating in the American Northeast in the late 20th century.

 

[Edcculus]

That looks great Dr. Dirt (and David)

 

[remilard]

Not doubting this at all...but where's the back up? I can't find any reference to TX and "black ipa" anywhere.

I didn't say black, I said dark.

Link below is a pretty good telling of the history of American Brown Ale, which ranged in strength from what would currently be considered an American Brown to a brown colored IPA like Janet's Brown (the author of the story linked below mentions Arrogant Bastard as the best current commercial example of what they were brewing). Note that they were entering it in competitions as California Dark Ale (despite being from TX). It's nice to see home brewers trying to promote a different geographical area rather than their own. Note the name did not stick, this one won't either. At least back then they were being original and not just ignorantly thinking they were original.

http://www.sweeet.net/pipermail/bexarbrewers/2008-May/000066.html

 

[DrDirt]

History: A style originating in the American Northeast in the late 20th century.

Edited and done. Thanks.

 

[remilard]

History: A style originating in the American Northeast in the late 20th century.

See post above: If you extend this to brown beers (which the commercial examples in the OP do) it originated in the American Southwest in the 1980s if not late 70s.

Also did anyone notice that Black Brutal Bitter is a commercial example? If that is still brewed the way it was when I lived in Oregon, it has noble type hops in it. Are crystal really a signature northwest variety? I guess Yakima Goldings are too then, yah?

 

[DrDirt]

Okay, someone post a poll. I'm not gonna do it because I clearly biased.