Proposed Style Guidelines. Cascadian Dark Ale

[Edcculus]

Besides the BJCP has plenty of other 'regional' catagories, how about: 12C Baltic Porter, 6A Cream Ale, 6C Kolsch to name but a few...

Those are historical styles. They didn't make up a BJCP style for themselves.

Unfortunately, as global and connected as the world is today, its going to be really hard to name regional beers anymore. As soon as someone in California brews a beer, someone in NY can brew the exact same thing a week later.

 

[Thakog]

I much prefer the name Cascadian Dark Ale to Black IPA. I'm not an IPA fan, and I avoided this style for a long time because I assumed I wouldn't like it either. I was wrong, and I've really been enjoying the beer- but if it wasn't labeled as an IPA, I would have been enjoying it for even longer! Clearly my loss for not being adventurous.

As for geography and pretentiousness, other beers have been there first. You've heard the story of how IPAs came to be known as such, right? Heck, what about naming a beer after an occupation? (Porter) Keep it CDA.

 

[carnevoodoo]

I much prefer the name Cascadian Dark Ale to Black IPA. I'm not an IPA fan, and I avoided this style for a long time because I assumed I wouldn't like it either. I was wrong, and I've really been enjoying the beer- but if it wasn't labeled as an IPA, I would have been enjoying it for even longer! Clearly my loss for not being adventurous.

As for geography and pretentiousness, other beers have been there first. You've heard the story of how IPAs came to be known as such, right? Heck, what about naming a beer after an occupation? (Porter) Keep it CDA.

Keep it CDA? There's a disconnect there. Maybe being from WA, you've been hearing that for years or something, but everyone else in the country seems to call them black IPAs. This name issue is very recent in the minds of the rest of the nation.

 

[Thakog]

Those are historical styles. They didn't make up a BJCP style for themselves.

Unfortunately, as global and connected as the world is today, its going to be really hard to name regional beers anymore. As soon as someone in California brews a beer, someone in NY can brew the exact same thing a week later.

Different regions still have difference tastes collectively. I went to school about 30 minutes south of the Canadian border. I was always surprised at the difference of styles when I would visit Canada. Honey lagers, while not on the BJCP guidelines, are very popular in BC, but I can't think of a single brewery in Washington or Portland that does one. (I'm sure there are a few- post them so I can visit!)

The PNW and Cascade region have a penchant for hoppy beers, hence it's popularity up here. Just because you can make it, doesn't mean that you will if the general populace isn't interested in the style. Otherwise I would have been drinking baltic porters on my honeymoon in Mexico.

 

[Thakog]

Keep it CDA? There's a disconnect there. Maybe being from WA, you've been hearing that for years or something, but everyone else in the country seems to call them black IPAs. This name issue is very recent in the minds of the rest of the nation.

Maybe "keep it CDA" was a poor choice of words. However, if the the northwest was the place to popularize it, then I don't see anything wrong with alluding to that in the name of the style.

 

[remilard]

Keep it CDA? There's a disconnect there. Maybe being from WA, you've been hearing that for years or something, but everyone else in the country seems to call them black IPAs. This name issue is very recent in the minds of the rest of the nation.

My recollection, having lived in Portland until about 2.5 years ago, is that they were called black IPAs in the PNW until very recently.

 

[carnevoodoo]

My recollection, having lived in Portland until about 2.5 years ago, is that they were called black IPAs in the PNW until very recently.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

 

[carnevoodoo]

Also:

"Garrett Oliver, brewmaster of Brooklyn Brewery has suggested that the style be dubbed San Diego Pale Ale. He was referring specifically to the Double IPA, but I think it applies equally well to the lower octane brews (maybe the higher alcohol beers in the style should be called San Diego Strong Ales). Some examples of the style that we really like include:

Alpine Duet and Pure Hoppiness and O'Brien's IPA
Ballast Point Sculpin IPA
Port Brewing's Wipeout IPA
Green Flash West Coast IPA
Stone Ruination"

Which I think is pretentious bull****, too. Just call it an IIPA. Or a black IPA.

 

[Thakog]

Some still are called black IPAs. I just finished a Widmer "Pitch Black IPA." I fail to see why that means that they BJCP category has to be "Black IPA" instead of Cascadian Dark Ale.

 

[carnevoodoo]

Some still are called black IPAs. I just finished a Widmer "Pitch Black IPA." I fail to see why that means that they BJCP category has to be "Black IPA" instead of Cascadian Dark Ale.

Why does it HAVE to be Cascadian Dark Ale? Why does it matter so much? People like thinking they're special, that's why.

 

[Thakog]

Why does it HAVE to be Cascadian Dark Ale? Why does it matter so much? People like thinking they're special, that's why.

Darn straight we do!

The answer of course, is that it doesn't HAVE to be Cascadian Dark Ale anymore than it HAS to be a Black IPA.

I just prefer it because

A)- it doesn't get confused with "normal" IPAs.

B)- it pays homage to a geographic region that helped it gain popularity. (Which I happen to live in- and you do too if the term "Cascadian" sticks.)

 

[DrDirt]

I have a great idea. Let's all brew a dark colored APA. It will have 120+ IBUs and a SRM minimum of 80. We'll require that it only use hydroponically grown hops, NW hop varieties will be an automatic disqualifier from this category. You have to blend in some genuine moonshine, and home made barbecue sauce. it should be fermented at 95 degrees and 100% humidity. We'll call it "appalachian ale"

any takers?

 

[phasedweasel]

Black IPA is almost certainly the more globally recognized name for the style. The Vermont Brew Pub has had one for more than five years. If it's just recognition of the style you want, instead of a bit of homage for your region, you'd care less about a name that is more commonly accepted anyway.

Or is it that there's a bit of cognitive dissonance occurring because you'd like acknowledgement and to feel special?

 

[snailsongs]

I don't hate it. I just think it is silly and pretentious.

Seems like the PNW culture finds itself doing a lot of things that are kind of silly and pretentious. PNW very much considers itself a kind of "indie" mecca and a trendsetter (and sometimes this proves to be true), and I think this has carried over into the beer world.

All I know is - I would be sad without my northwest hops and beerstyles, as well as my OLY/SEA/PDX local music scenes, as well as my fierce appreciation of rugged nature through the window of a huge gas guzzling SUV.......I would miss the panhandlers and the homeless too. The PNW is a land of condtradictions and a lot of self-pride, but what region isn't?

 

[motobrewer]

marketing has no place in bjcp.

this is just a campaign to sell more cascades.

 

[remilard]

Well there is zero chance that thing gets adopted as written, no worries there. The question is, why write it that way in the first place? I am much more offended by the editorial content than the name.

Also, frankly, the color parameter is an absurd mistake and makes me question how much effort went into writing that. Reading that makes one appreciate that Gordon Strong is either very talented or worked very hard on the 2004 guidelines.

 

[motobrewer]

my porter is 30 srm. and it's pretty d*mn dark

 

[the_bird]

I like the idea of a "Black IPA" making into the guidelines but not limiting its hop choice to PNW varieties. I bet you could make a hellulatasty dark, highly-hopped beer using classic English hop varities. A wee bit of roastiness alongside some nice Fuggles and EKG...

"Cascadian Dark Ale" is needlessly limiting, when the key focus (IMHO) is on the pairing of a dark, subtly-roasty beer with a lot of hops. No need to limit the hop choices.

 

[EMPyre]

Those are historical styles. They didn't make up a BJCP style for themselves.

Unfortunately, as global and connected as the world is today, its going to be really hard to name regional beers anymore. As soon as someone in California brews a beer, someone in NY can brew the exact same thing a week later.

That's semantics... They are historical due to region specificity and distinction. As to beers not being geographically contained, that isn't the arguement, the stance is that these beers ORIGINATED here, and the name is an expression of that fact.

My recollection, having lived in Portland until about 2.5 years ago, is that they were called black IPAs in the PNW until very recently.

True, maybe as recently as say someone suggested a distinction be made in say the BJCP guidelines that recognizes a regional trend and offered up a name to catagorize said distinction.

I have a great idea. Let's all brew a dark colored APA. It will have 120+ IBUs and a SRM minimum of 80. We'll require that it only use hydroponically grown hops, NW hop varieties will be an automatic disqualifier from this category. You have to blend in some genuine moonshine, and home made barbecue sauce. it should be fermented at 95 degrees and 100% humidity. We'll call it "appalachian ale"

Go for it, as well as the guy who proposed doing some other absurdity a few pages back. If it catches on, and, as the write up stated with regard to CDA, people are brewing it all over the place after a decade, then maybe we can consider you proposal.

I like the idea of a "Black IPA" making into the guidelines but not limiting its hop choice to PNW varieties. I bet you could make a hellulatasty dark, highly-hopped beer using classic English hop varities. A wee bit of roastiness alongside some nice Fuggles and EKG...

Fair enough, but the suggestion wasn't for a broad range black IPA. It specified a regional ingredient and its use by those in, perhaps, this catagory. Using EKG could certainly be used in a black IPA, but it wouldn't be used in a CDA.

"Cascadian Dark Ale" is needlessly limiting, when the key focus (IMHO) is on the pairing of a dark, subtly-roasty beer with a lot of hops. No need to limit the hop choices.

Why not, plenty of other styles limit hop or grain choices. A true wiezen isn't going to be made with chinook, although I suppose you could, but it wouldn't be brewed to style. I suppose you could use US 2 row in an English brown, but again the style calls for Pale English. Even yeast is limited in style sheets. If you don't want to brew to style, fine, but if style is an important consideration then a guide for a regional beer that calls for a regional ingredient is more than valid.

 

[carnevoodoo]

Boooooorinnnnnng.

 

[EMPyre]

^^^^
Awesome, thanks for playing, your contribution has been noted.

 

[Jipper]

Fair enough, but the suggestion wasn't for a broad range black IPA. It specified a regional ingredient and its use by those in, perhaps, this catagory. Using EKG could certainly be used in a black IPA, but it wouldn't be used in a CDA.
.

I agree here - I think what turns me off, and I suspect other people - is the over-mention of NW and Casdadia and everything else that refers to the West Coast. If you want to make Black IPA a style, then do it, but it's too broad a thing to limit to NW hops. It's almost egocentric in some regards. Yes I live on the Hop Coast and sure I'd like to promote NW hops, but this is a style made up by homebrewers for homebrewers to judge homebrews against. Let's allow ourselves to use New Zeland hops or Japanese hops or hops from the moon - why limit ourselves?

 

[david_42]

Just to be completely clear, the style guide is based on COMMERCIAL beers, not a bunch of pretentious PNW beer S.N.O.B.s. The style and naming were developed by professional brewers, not BJCP judges.

 

[motobrewer]

I've never seen nor heard of any of those style examples.

Granted, this might be from my limited beer experience, and the fact that I live in Milwaukee. It seems that your pro brewers are being a bit snobbish in the fact that they think everyone knows about their little brewing world. I have had darker IPAs and amber IPAs. I've never heard the term Cascadian Dark.

Anyone could create a local style. I think styles should be historical, rather than local.

 

[Synovia]

Granted, this might be from my limited beer experience, and the fact that I live in Milwaukee. It seems that your pro brewers are being a bit snobbish in the fact that they think everyone knows about their little brewing world. I have had darker IPAs and amber IPAs. I've never heard the term Cascadian Dark.

Same here.


Cascadian Dark Ale sounds like something that would be served with a Grey Poupon Sandwich

 

[remilard]

Just to be completely clear, the style guide is based on COMMERCIAL beers, not a bunch of pretentious PNW beer S.N.O.B.s. The style and naming were developed by professional brewers, not BJCP judges.

Then submit it to the Brewer's Association. The BJCP guidelines describe beers that are commonly entered in home brewing competitions.

Regardless of who (home brewers in Texas, for the record) invented dark IPAs, nobody was calling them CDA until, like, the other day.

 

[phasedweasel]

... nobody was calling them CDA until, like, the other day.

This right here.

 

[cheezydemon3]

To take a style and say that you definitively know who invented it, and where is absurd.

"Munich Helles" is one of the few styles to designate a place, short of "english" or "american" which encompass a whole country.

Unless a style is historically established and clearly belongs to a certain area, which this one doesn't, call it what you want, but don't expect the rest of us to.

 

[Scooby_Brew]

To take a style and say that you definitively know who invented it, and where is absurd.

Except for Vienna, Pilsner (the town of Pilsno), Budweizer (the town of Budejovice), Munich Dunkel, Munich Helles, Berliner Weisse, Bavarian Hefe, Belgian Wit, Belgian Blonde, Belgian Strong etc, etc, etc. Pretty much EVERY style is specific to a region (in the beginning at least).

I like the idea for naming this beer Cascadian Dark Ale, everybody is calling it this name anyways. For sure American-India Dark-Pale Ale makes no sense at all.

 

[the_bird]

Who's "everybody?"

I've heard people talk about "Black IPAs" for years. "Cascadian Dark Ales"... as noted, first heard that two days ago.

Calling something an "IPA" - even if is it *not* pale - is a lot less confusing than calling something a "dark ale." Everyone knows IPA = metric ****ton of hops. "Dark Ale" provides absolutely no descriptive information; could be a stout, for all the information that name provides.