ProFlow Dynamics Flow Meter

Williams 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
nbolmer

nbolmer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2012
Messages
151
Reaction score
33
Location
Occidental
I've been in touch with Clark from ProFlow Dynamics, who many of you probably know as the place to get camlock fittings. They manufacture a lot of fuel management hardware, including flow meters.

Sight gauges are great, but they have to be calibrated. Not only must they be calibrated, but they must be calibrated over a range of different temperatures. Looking through the flow meters, I didn't see a device which met these criteria:
1) High Temperature (boiling water)
2) NPT fittings(or easily adaptable thereto)
3) Digital display (totalizer)
4) Battery powered
5) Food safe

I contacted Clark, who was kind enough to cobble a homebrew-specific solution together.

It measures in gallons, has NPT fittings (you can add camclocks), and the digital display is easy to reset, and is remote (via a wire) so you can mount it at eye-level. It will be just about 200$ - for serious homebrewers, but not completely budget draining.

When they're in stock, I'll post here, along with a full review / evaluation.

Cheers!
 
I don't follow... a sight gauge is for measuring volume whereas a flow meter is for measuring current/movement. The equivalent to a sight gauge is a level gauge/meter.
What am I missing here?
 
wish it could send a signal to a digital controller so that it could be used in conjunction with electronic valves...

I'll stick with my sight gauges.

Also, agree with the above. I thought this was going to be a flow meter, which could be useful for a fly sparging (if you had two). Or if it was for air (which is where I could use a cheap one) to measure the oxygen flow rate that I'm injecting into my finished wort before pitching.
 
It's not a sight gauge... I was drawing a contrast. This is an alternative to a sight gauge.

EDIT: I see what you're saying... they're equivalent through usage. A sight gauge is useful inasmuch as you use it to send water somewhere. So if your HLT sight displays 5 gallons, and you need 3 gallons of sparge, you watch the level drop to 2 (assuming you start measuring your sight gauge after dead space).

With this, you can simply open your valve, and close it when it reads 3 gallons. It's more convenient and precise.


OneHoppyGuy said:
I don't follow... a sight gauge is for measuring volume whereas a flow meter is for measuring current/movement. The equivalent to a sight gauge is a level gauge/meter.
What am I missing here?
Click to expand...
 
This is probably possible through a bit of engineering (by someone with the electrical know-how). I imagine this could be integrated into your brewery control system. And yes, it is a flow meter, yes you could use it for fly sparging - with two, or one plus some plumbing, and pumping.

bruin_ale said:
wish it could send a signal to a digital controller so that it could be used in conjunction with electronic valves...

I'll stick with my sight gauges.

Also, agree with the above. I thought this was going to be a flow meter, which could be useful for a fly sparging (if you had two). Or if it was for air (which is where I could use a cheap one) to measure the oxygen flow rate that I'm injecting into my finished wort before pitching.
Click to expand...
 
Okay, I understand how you are using it.
Using a flow meter is a misapplication. You want to use a level meter.
This opinion is based on 10 years in industrial controls and my father's 30+ years as a control systems engineer.
 
I've been looking for awhile. We want one to incorporate one into our systems. Nothing yet.
 
OneHoppyGuy said:
Okay, I understand how you are using it.
Using a flow meter is a misapplication. You want to use a level meter.
This opinion is based on 10 years in industrial controls and my father's 30+ years as a control systems engineer.
Click to expand...


I don't understand how this is a misapplication. A flow meter without a totalizer would be a misapplication. It completely eliminates the common sources of error for sight gauges.

Sight gauges must be calibrated for your particular vessel. When doing so, there is an opportunity for error every time you fill up the calibrating container (i.e. the gallon jug). There is error in thermal expansion of water- as the water heats up, either you need yet another calibration scale, or your volumes will be off by up to 4%. There is the possibility of mathematical error when using the sight gauge (subtracting decimals in your head in the middle of a sparge).

A flow meter with a totalizer tells you the exact amount of liquid you've sent through it. If I want to send 3.22 gallons of water from my HLT to my mash tun, I simply open my valve, and close it when my display hits 3.22. It's a very easy, elegant solution to the problem.

Your level meter would still need to be calibrated for your vessel, and would still suffer from thermal expansion error. It's another solution, but I can't figure one way that a flow meter with totalizer isn't a better solution. MOREOVER, with the flow meter, a brewer with a fairly automated system, could plumb everything through without needing a separate level meter for every vessel.

A flow meter with totalizer is the best solution when you want to send a specific amount of liquid from one place to another.

EDIT: I'll also point out flow meters are the brewing industry standard for calculating volume in / out. Here's an example of one with tri-clamp fittings, used extensively by breweries.
http://gpimeters.wordpress.com/2009...-wine-flow-metersflow-meters-for-beer-making/
 
Been there and done that with automated system, calculated volumes measured by pressure transmitters and corrected for sg and temperature in software, flow is by Malema M-10000 flow transmitters.
The arduino platform handles bubble tube pressure/level sensors, not sure if they can calculate the corrections needed for SG and temperature though. There are lower cost battery powered flow totalizers out there, but not sure they would interface with anything else. Trying to use a batch totalizer is creative, but flow sensor accuracy and small volumes would be problematical without level indication.
Automation and cheap are mutually exclusive terms, it just costs $ to do it right and have a reliable system.
 
"A flow meter with totalizer is the best solution when you want to send a specific amount of liquid from one place to another."

According to a manufacturer selling flow meters.
You are obviously convinced so I won't argue the point further. I hope it works for you.
 
OneHoppyGuy said:
"A flow meter with totalizer is the best solution when you want to send a specific amount of liquid from one place to another."

According to a manufacturer selling flow meters.
You are obviously convinced so I won't argue the point further. I hope it works for you.
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm convinced that the tool most commonly used by the brewing industry is a good tool. You haven't provided a single concrete reason why a flow meter isn't an ideal solution, or a single reason why a digital volume meter (which you admit, you haven't even found to exist) would be a better solution. No it's not "a manufacturer that sells flow meters". It's a company which specializes in measuring fluids, they also sell pumps, fasteners, coolers, and other industry standard technology. There are many other companies that do the same. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find a production brewery that DOESN'T use flow meters.

It's not that I can't be convinced, it's that you haven't provided any analysis, or addressed mine.

You want to send 5 gallons from one vessel to another, a device measures that amount as it heads there. How in the world is that not ideal?
 
kladue said:
Been there and done that with automated system, calculated volumes measured by pressure transmitters and corrected for sg and temperature in software, flow is by Malema M-10000 flow transmitters.
The arduino platform handles bubble tube pressure/level sensors, not sure if they can calculate the corrections needed for SG and temperature though. There are lower cost battery powered flow totalizers out there, but not sure they would interface with anything else. Trying to use a batch totalizer is creative, but flow sensor accuracy and small volumes would be problematical without level indication.
Automation and cheap are mutually exclusive terms, it just costs $ to do it right and have a reliable system.
Click to expand...

There are definitely lower cost flow totalizers, but the ones talked about on arduino forums are generally analogue, can't be reset, and aren't in gallons. Flow sensor accuracy is actually within a percent for the unit I'm discussing, at volumes handled by by brewers, and high temp (which is very uncommon). Those are actually some of the criteria I've been discussing - when I get my unit, I'll photograph a test at multiple temperatures using calibrated containers. If it's within even a couple percent, it's already better and more convenient than a sight gauge (which can't be used at high temperatures - there's too much surface activity at near-boil to get an accurate reading).

Automation is definitely where this device could really shine.
 
This may be a stupid question (but possibly relevant?):

How does a gas pump work?

I imagine/hope there's a reasonable amount of accuracy there and the volumes aren't that far off from what we deal with while brewing.
 
jpalarchio said:
This may be a stupid question (but possibly relevant?):

How does a gas pump work?

I imagine/hope there's a reasonable amount of accuracy there and the volumes aren't that far off from what we deal with while brewing.
Click to expand...

Not a stupid question at all. In fact, a gas pump works with a flow meter / totalizer, exactly the product I'm talking about. It measures the quantity of gas as it exits the fuel tank (hot liquor tank) and enters your car (mash tun). It gives you a total amount sent, and stops whenever you want it to. It's then reset for the next car.

A gas pump is actually a perfect analogy.
 
I use some flow meters from "Swissflow" today with an Arduino to measure the efficiency of my reverse osmosis system.

There are three meters: one on the input line, one on the waste line and one on the output line.

When you add up the numbers, something is obviously lost in the accuracy as they don't match. Haven't determined if it's the meters yet or my code and how I'm reading them.

Water Stats: http://water.palarchio.com/

Originally I thought I might use them in a brewing application but the tiny impellers inside the meters look like they'd get destroyed by a piece or grain or hop leaf. Some people use these same sensors to measure dispensing quantities of kegged beer.
 
jpalarchio said:
I use some flow meters from "Swissflow" today with an Arduino to measure the efficiency of my reverse osmosis system.

There are three meters: one on the input line, one on the waste line and one on the output line.

When you add up the numbers, something is obviously lost in the accuracy as they don't match. Haven't determined if it's the meters yet or my code and how I'm reading them.

Waters Stats: http://water.palarchio.com/

Originally I thought I might use them in a brewing application but the tiny impellers inside the meters look like they'd get destroyed by a piece or grain or hop leaf. Some people use these same sensors to measure dispensing quantities of kegged beer.
Click to expand...

Yeah, until I contacted a supplier, I hadn't seen any that seem wholly appropriate for transfer either. Even with this unit, I'll probably only use it to send pure water, not wort. I know that different meters have wildly different accuracies - I've seen them at 5% down to a fraction of a percent across the temperature range. It will be very interesting to see whether this one performs.
 
It sounds like a cool idea. The one thing that you've mentioned about sight gauges is that you have to calibrate at various levels to account for thermal expansion. Does the $200 flow meter have temperature compensation built in? If not, the contrast in that regard is moot. In my system the cold/hot difference on the gauge is about the height of the meniscus. If it's tap water, I read the top. If it's strike or boiling, I read the bottom. It's not exacting, but this is just homebrewing and a being a pint off +/- is fine.

One other place you have to be careful is to reset the meter before you start pumping and then remember/record how much you pumped. The contrast there is that sight glasses are always there to double check anytime.

You mentioned sight gauges not working while boiling, but that's not true unless you're overheating. Besides, the flow meter wouldn't do anything for you in this case at all.

Are you getting two so you can monitor wort collection and sparge addition at the same time? That's $400. If it's just for water, you'd use it to fill your HLT initially and then to move it to the tun for strike.
 
Bobby_M said:
It sounds like a cool idea. The one thing that you've mentioned about sight gauges is that you have to calibrate at various levels to account for thermal expansion. Does the $200 flow meter have temperature compensation built in? If not, the contrast in that regard is moot.

One other place you have to be careful is to reset the meter before you start pumping and then remember/record how much you pumped. The contrast there is that sight glasses are always there to double check anytime.

Are you getting two so you can monitor wort collection and sparge addition at the same time? That's $400. I guess that's not much to add to a $5k+ system.
Click to expand...

Yep, it temperature corrects which is a huge thing. Yes, you have to make sure to reset it before sending through the next batch (though if you forget, a little simple arithmetic). I'll still keep my sight glass to ballpark. I'm going to start with one - I sparge based on pH and gravity, not volume, I'm also unsure of how suitable this meter is for wort - I'll let you know when I get it. This is mainly for my HLT => Mash, and HLT => sparge. If it's very accurate, it could also be used to calibrate the sight glasses in other vessels, fairly quickly. 400$ would start to get spendy for a couple; this would definitely be geared toward advanced brewers, and automation enthusiasts. You can certainly make amazing beer without it :)

Edit: you added a couple of things. Regarding boiling - this isn't necessarily true. In my polarware vessel, the water in my sight gauge gets very active (not fully boiling, but active) at mash-out temps. Do you not have this issue with your setup?
 
What I haven't found is a level meter in a low cost range. Kladue is correct in stating the volume at which the flow meter is being used. How accurate will the flow meter be at a very low volume?
The flow meter would also have to be calibrated. If not, I wasted a lot of field time calibrating them...
 
OneHoppyGuy said:
What I haven't found is a level meter in a low cost range. Kladue is correct in stating the volume at which the flow meter is being used. How accurate will the flow meter be at a very low volume?
The flow meter would also have to be calibrated. If not, I wasted a lot of field time calibrating them...
Click to expand...

The flow meter will be specific to the volume / rates that homebrewers use. Accuracy is definitely the big question - and I will thoroughly put it through the paces at various speeds and temperatures before recommending one.
 
You are not the first to try this method, and probably will have the same results that others have had, but if you are determined to do this here is a low cost totalizing meter http://www.freshwatersystems.com/specifications/8000t_spec.pdf, What looks good at 1 GPM is not so good at .2 GPM for fly sparging when water density and accuracy come into play.
Here is an even lower cost unit http://www.futurlec.com/FLOWMETER.shtml, not sure of top temperature capability, but with low pressure it might be ok at 175 degrees.
 
nbolmer said:
Regarding boiling - this isn't necessarily true. In my polarware vessel, the water in my sight gauge gets very active (not fully boiling, but active) at mash-out temps. Do you not have this issue with your setup?
Click to expand...

The liquid in my boil kettle glass doesn't move at all during the boil.

Good luck with the unit. Someone's got to be willing to spend the $200 to try it out and it may as well be you :)
 
kladue said:
You are not the first to try this method, and probably will have the same results that others have had, but if you are determined to do this here is a low cost totalizing meter http://www.freshwatersystems.com/specifications/8000t_spec.pdf, What looks good at 1 GPM is not so good at .2 GPM for fly sparging when water density and accuracy come into play.
Here is an even lower cost unit http://www.futurlec.com/FLOWMETER.shtml, not sure of top temperature capability, but with low pressure it might be ok at 175 degrees.
Click to expand...

You may be right, but this is a different turbine for smaller applications that hasn't been tried. It seems that most people who have tried this, have used off-the-shelf meters designed for other applications without contacting a manufacturer with a specific application in mind. It may work, it may not. If it doesn't work, there may still be yet another turbine that will. Home-brewers are not the first people to ever need to measure and totalize flow rates with these parameters.
 
The most accurate metering setup seen was a Neptune water meter with high temp seals, it still had issues with 175 degree water. A method I have used in the past was to measure all the water needed into a separate container and transfer to MT as needed, or in your case the HLT.
Now with level sensors I add water to MLT for strike then dough in, and later add additional water for sparge, until sparge volume in wort is transferred to the boil kettle while maintaining MT level.
Use of a couple cheap float switches in the HLT would get you there with less effort, one set for strike level fill, one set for sparge level fill, and one to stop pump when zero level is reached. A bit of math to determine level settings, and simple relay logic would be sufficient for this application.
 
kladue said:
The most accurate metering setup seen was a Neptune water meter with high temp seals, it still had issues with 175 degree water. A method I have used in the past was to measure all the water needed into a separate container and transfer to MT as needed, or in your case the HLT.
Now with level sensors I add water to MLT for strike then dough in, and later add additional water for sparge, until sparge volume in wort is transferred to the boil kettle while maintaining MT level.
Use of a couple cheap float switches in the HLT would get you there with less effort, one set for strike level fill, one set for sparge level fill, and one to stop pump when zero level is reached. A bit of math to determine level settings, and simple relay logic would be sufficient for this application.
Click to expand...

I like the float switch method also, which is also easily integrated into an automated setup. I'm less concerned about sparge, as I don't measure sparge volumetrically, I sparge based on pH and gravity - it's done when it's done, and it varies by recipe, even when given the same amount of total grain. I routinely hit the final volume I'm expecting. My application is just a simpler way to measure strike and mash-out water (or step infusions if doing multiple
 
The flow meters discussed probably are just simple turbine meters, you have to calculate a correction factor for density on your own. I do not believe either of the two popular automation platforms have the necessary software to do this, and the BCS is strictly temperature input only, no allowance for level or flow was made when built.
 
I'm resurrecting this ancient thread because I (still) get a lot of private messages about it.

Background: When I was homebrewing (I now own a production brewery in Sebastopol, CA), I wanted to bring flowmeters into my setup to simplify measuring volumes transferred from one vessel to another. This is what commercial breweries do.

Problem: There weren't any flowmeters specifically designed for small volumes of liquid, and temperature correction was a big problem.

Solution: I had a custom flowmeter built. It was fairly accurate with a deviation of about 5% from actual, which was fine for me for homebrewing.

At my brewery, I use magnetic flowmeters, which are not affected by temperature. It totalizes to a remote screen on the catwalk. This is convenient, because I can control my pumps and see the total volume moved without walking around to my sight glass. It also eliminates the basic arithmetic of subtracting the current volume from the previous volume when sending hot liquor.

I also use a GPI turbine meter for sending beer into fermenters. It is accurate to about .05% at pitching temperature, and repeatable into the thousandths.

For homebrew, there still isn't an appropriate flowmeter that I could recommend. Before going commercial, I had considered the non-contact electromagnetic clamp-on flow meters. They're spendy, but I see them on ebay fairly regularly for cheap.

Someone should start a kickstarter for a homebrew-specific flowmeter / totalizer.
 

Similar threads

G
Digital flow meter with solenoid for strike and sparge water
Replies
1
Views
2K
gnef
G
A
  • Sticky
pH Meter Calibration
4 5 6
Replies
222
Views
111K
Silver_Is_Money
Silver_Is_Money
FuzzeWuzze
  • Locked
HOWTO - Make a BrewPi Fermentation Controller For Cheap
208 209 210
Replies
8K
Views
1M
LBussy
LBussy

Latest posts

Back
Top