Problems with Tap Trailer

[bleme]

My club has a 10 tap trailer that we take to beerfests. We have been having a problem lately that all the seltzers we serve pour fine but the beers are all foamy. I believe this is because our gas side has no back-flow prevention or it stopped working so the higher pressures are going back through the manifold and evening out across all 10 kegs. Our temporary solution has been to just keep the valves closed and just open them for a few seconds when the beer stops pouring but that is a huge PITA as it requires climbing in and out of the tight trailer. Also, some members can't grasp the concept and think it will work to just leave the valve partly open so every time I leave to visit another vendor, I come back to more foam.

The cheapest solution I have considered is adding duotight check valves to each line. The more expensive fix would be to add flow control to all the taps. I realize that covers the symptom instead of the problem, but it would also fix those kegs that show up over-carbed. Any thoughts?

 

[mac_1103]

How about secondary regulators? You wouldn't need one for each line, just one for the seltzers and one for the beers.

 

[bleme]

I considered that. We already have a secondary regulator and use the high pressure to run the glass washers. Our gas manifold is also 2 6's that could be separated. That would limit us to 6 beers or 6 seltzers though when we are often 8:2 or 7:3, and once 2:8.

 

[Deadalus]

Duotight makes QDs with flow control. I have only used them once and so I don't have a solid recommendation for them or not.

The shutoffs off the manifold usually have a check valve built in but sometimes they don't.

Where's the secondary in relation to the manifolds?

 

[bleme]

It's a dual body regulator, so on the CO2 tank.

 

[mac_1103]

Our gas manifold is also 2 6's that could be separated. That would limit us to 6 beers or 6 seltzers though when we are often 8:2 or 7:3, and once 2:8.

You might need another manifold. Or a couple of tee's.

Duotight makes QDs with flow control. I have only used them once and so I don't have a solid recommendation for them or not.

I have one that I use with a Nukatap Mini connected directly to a minikeg. Works well in that application where I'm going for maximum restriction but I've heard that they're kind of a pain to adjust.

 

[Deadalus]

You might need another manifold. Or a couple of tee's.

I have one that I use with a Nukatap Mini connected directly to a minikeg. Works well in that application where I'm going for maximum restriction but I've heard that pain to adjust.

I hadn't read the directions the day I used them with my jockey box and I had several other bigger issues that day that I couldn't really test them out properly. I couldn't really tell if they were effective or not. The dial was hard to turn but may loosen. The regular duotight QDs are really tight I find to disassemble too but those also I haven't used repeatedly enough.

 

[wsmith1625]

Not the cheapest solution, but 2 of these would do the trick.

https://www.kegconnection.com/air-d...heck-valves/?searchid=0&search_query=Manifold

Edit: Get one of these and use the 2 6's for the high side. Just need a splitter like this.

https://www.amazon.com/Bev-Rite-CPG...0918199520a852df26fce0&qid=1748577586&sr=8-17

 

[JohnDBrewer]

Does everything, beer and seltzer, run through the same chilling method - plate v. coil?

 

[IslandLizard]

It's a dual body regulator, so on the CO2 tank.
View attachment 876670

Unless I'm missing something, use one regulator for seltzer, the other for beer, each at their dedicated pressure setting.

 

[bleme]

Does everything, beer and seltzer, run through the same chilling method - plate v. coil?

We keep the kegs on ice. No plates or coils. I suggested a plate chiller but the trailer ended up being bought, built and donated by one very generous member so he got to decide the particulars. It actually performed well for a couple of years but recently developed this problem so I think maybe the gas manifold had check valves built in that have stopped working (?). I don't know enough about the internals to understand what changed. I'll try to get pictures up this weekend to make it easier for ya'll to diagnose.

 

[DavidWood2115]

If there are no check valves, the pressure will equalize across all the kegs. If there are 8 beers at 12psi and 2 seltzers at 35psi, this will equalize to ~17psi (assuming equal headspace). But after some number of pours the headspace will increase enough to drop the pressure back down to 12 (or whatever the regulator is set at).

This suggests that the foaming should stop after a while. Does it?

Also, if this is what’s happening, you could prevent this problem by venting the seltzer kegs beforehand (or just venting the excess pressure from the whole system before pouring).

If the foaming doesn’t stop, I think I would check your regulator/pressure gauge to make sure your serving pressure is correct.

 

[mac_1103]

It actually performed well for a couple of years but recently developed this problem so I think maybe the gas manifold had check valves built in that have stopped working (?).

If you suspect the manifold then replace the manifold. With two. So you can take advantage of the dual body regulator.

 

[Broken Crow]

We already have a secondary regulator and use the high pressure to run the glass washers.

Like suggested above; just use the 2 regulators you have split between seltzer and beer and stop wasting CO2 on the glass-washer.....replace the glass-washer supply with a simple 12V RV diaphram pump...higher pressure and no wsted CO2:
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=12v+diap...x=12v+diaphragm+pump,aps,108&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

 

[wsmith1625]

Not the cheapest solution, but 2 of these would do the trick.

https://www.kegconnection.com/air-d...heck-valves/?searchid=0&search_query=Manifold

Edit: Get one of these and use the 2 6's for the high side. Just need a splitter like this.

https://www.amazon.com/Bev-Rite-CPG112-Regulator-Distributor-Brass/dp/B077Y731CM/ref=mp_s_a_1_17?adgrpid=1241348945813423&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.etrJOPEtS94xgD9zYv_UlztdDHNzvaIkwLvtPk6nj986JCfoCTFUrcXkzKETsAE03Q4EGddpWRkfHgDytYAVgVYVpv3LTgDHF3pdb7JaUSMHgqTla-R1tfW2WWDS7MrlwKUEKhahwHp31GaSBOivbM3d070BXWJ1ofArYjjp3Bgo5zkdvWKh1SwRbATPiUzWyC7uk9ssJlCMEic5V-b7jw.OrT30Lz-zdywSRDSqeRbDWt3uBQ5V3cszI4ElNFFd0o&dib_tag=se&hvadid=77584475287896&hvbmt=bp&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=94571&hvnetw=s&hvqmt=p&hvtargid=kwd-77584665863555:loc-190&hydadcr=27339_14631469&keywords=co2+keg+splitter&mcid=688901170f083224ae7a2cfaa9ce5e5c&msclkid=0006c06bf20918199520a852df26fce0&qid=1748577586&sr=8-17

If you install a 10 line gas manifold on the low pressure and use the 2 6 lines on the high pressure, it will allow any configuration of kegs; 10 seltzers or 10 beers, or any combination in between. Probably a worthwhile upgrade.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm not following why high pressure from the seltzer kegs would intermix with the beer kegs if they are run off of different primary regulator pressures. If they were all the same pressure, that would be reflected on the low pressure gauges.

One regulator gets set to like 10 psi for beer and the other one should be about 30psi for seltzer (and if you run the grass rinser off pressure, that should be enough).

 

[whoaru99]

I'm not following how one runs two different pressures from (what sounds like??) one gas manifold. Nor, how check valves would help keep high pressure from getting to the lower pressure lines.

Seems like maybe a diagram is in order.

 

[bleme]

I'm not following why high pressure from the seltzer kegs would intermix with the beer kegs if they are run off of different primary regulator pressures. If they were all the same pressure, that would be reflected on the low pressure gauges.

One regulator gets set to like 10 psi for beer and the other one should be about 30psi for seltzer (and if you run the grass rinser off pressure, that should be enough).

We currently run the washers at about 20 psi and the kegs at 5psi but our gas manifold doesn't have any check valves so when we burp all the kegs and set the regulator at 5psi, within 5 minutes it will be up to 15 psi. They shortened the lines because the beer sitting in the lines was getting too warm but that just increased the foaming. If it were me, I would have built the system with EVA Barrier hose and back-flow protection to start with. I can't blame him for trying to make it as cheaply as possible but it seems like we are always chasing down a problem, no matter how amazing it looks on the outside.

 

[bleme]

Some exterior pics for context

 

[mac_1103]

Outside looks great but the issues are all inside.

 

[Bobby_M]

We currently run the washers at about 20 psi and the kegs at 5psi but our gas manifold doesn't have any check valves so when we burp all the kegs and set the regulator at 5psi, within 5 minutes it will be up to 15 psi. They shortened the lines because the beer sitting in the lines was getting too warm but that just increased the foaming. If it were me, I would have built the system with EVA Barrier hose and back-flow protection to start with. I can't blame him for trying to make it as cheaply as possible but it seems like we are always chasing down a problem, no matter how amazing it looks on the outside.

View attachment 876998View attachment 876999

I'll just repeat what I said in a different way. Whatever the carb level of the keg is when it arrives is the pressure it needs to be served at. Beers are going to need to be pushed with about 10psi give or take depending on the keg temps. If you keep dropping the pressure to 5psi, or screwing around with the pressures all day, you'll have foam forever.

You have them on ice, but are the containers also filled with water? They need to be submerged in a icewater slurry, not just ice with air gaps.

The kegs that show up with seltzer are probably carbed to a higher level because they really should be. The only reason they don't foam is that they don't have the same protein content as beer.

As I said, whatever you have to do to split the two pressures to the appropriate kegs, do it. ... But run seltzer and the washers at a higher pressure. If the washers work well at 20, the seltzers will pour fine there.

Keep the beer on a manifold that always stays at 10psi.

If anything pours too fast, fix it with longer or more narrow beverage lines (or both). Do NOT touch the pressures. This is the solution. Anything is BS. If the club doesn't want to rework the lines, they'll have to drink foam. Any excess line length should just be wrapped around the kegs submerged in the icewater, not cut off.

 

[Broken Crow]

Great looking "Bones"... While I stand by my suggestion of a 12V diaphram pump for the washer to free up the otherwise wasted regulator that wastes CO2, if they want shorter lines you could use that as an excuse to go EVABarrier with the 3mm ID lines.... 37" of it works great for me.
..just sayin.

 

[IslandLizard]

I stand by my suggestion of a 12V diaphram pump for the washer to free up the otherwise wasted regulator that wastes CO2

That makes much sense, saving a) lots of CO2, while b) freeing up the regulator for the alternate pressure.

However, there needs to be a source for 12V then. Those trailers don't come with that, unless they have an electric hookup on site (and a transformer/rectifier), or bring along a large 12V (pre-charged) battery.

 

[Broken Crow]

That makes much sense, saving a) lots of CO2, while b) freeing up the regulator for the alternate pressure.

However, there needs to be a source for 12V then. Those trailers don't come with that, unless they have an electric hookup on site (and a transformer/rectifier), or bring along a large 12V (pre-charged) battery.

Totally agree! ..but I may have a touch of confirmation-bias as I've been lugging around car batteries since experimented with my first electric go-cart among other learning/fun projects when I was about 6 years old. Thing is; @bleme does show the sensibility of doing something properly from the get-go;

If it were me, I would have built the system with EVA Barrier hose and back-flow protection to start with. I can't blame him for trying to make it as cheaply as possible but it seems like we are always chasing down a problem, no matter how amazing it looks on the outside.

... it's the second part of that sentence and 'him' that irks me: The cost outlay to build such a thing is at least 4-digits... the cost of not only throwing 2 batteries over the trailer hitch area (1 in use/ 1 switchable backup or 2 in parallel) and given the relatively low cost today; perhaps a battery charger that can be plugged in the night before an event just makes long-term sense to me. (Also: going completely EVABarrier from the outset would have been a good idea, after all; isn't the whole point of the unit to present beers at their finest rather than after they've been compromised?)
Who doesn't have a spare car battery or 4 and spare charger sitting around?...OK; maybe not everyone, but those things are cheap next to the cost of the trailer itself not to mention the associated costs of attending an event specifically to showcase the beer.
My logic circuits are having a problem deciphering the purpose of this trailer if not to serve 'good beer' Are you going to ball parks where the consumer drinks BMC drek and nobody cares about the beer, but only having something they call 'beer' in their hand?. No offense meant, but hey @bleme : Show this thread to the owner.

 

[IslandLizard]

That,^ what @Broken Crow said!
I agree with using EVA barrier lines for gas and beer.
Since the trailer isn't air conditioned, it wouldn't hurt putting some neoprene insulation tubing around the beer lines from keg to faucet connector, too.

Your trailer is very nice, and being completely self-contained, not requiring any hookups, it's ultra-portable.

At our yearly regional campout most of the 50-80 beers served are on jockey boxes, kegs kept on ice in coolers or storage tubs.
Now someone also brings a beer trailer, with, IIRC, 12 taps, 6 on each side. All the kegs serving those 12 taps are inside the trailer, while a permanently installed air conditioning unit cools the trailer inside. Luckily, the site provides 120V/10A hookups, keeping the beer in the trailer cold.