Problems getting bitterness

[+HopSpunge+]

^^ That should work better. 1 oz bittering for an ipa is week and feeble.

 

[yewtah-brewha]

I was told not to use RO water, but you'll have to let us know how it turns out.

This is my next experiment in getting beer to actually taste bitter

100% RO water with 1tsp of gypsum
8lb Light LME
1.5lb Corn Sugar
1/2lb steeped crystal 60L

1 oz Warrior 14% 60min
1 oz Northern Brewer 10% 60min
1 3/4 oz Northern Brewer 10% 30min
2 oz Cascade 6% 15min
2 oz Cascade 6% 0min

According to hopville, this should be 150IBU. We'll see.

 

[BetterSense]

Holy crap, the hydrometer sample was throat-searingly bitter.

Is the hydrometer sample supposed to be sweet for an IPA, or is it OK if it's already pretty bitter? Is there any chance that it will become less bitter with fermentation? I figured it's not possible for a beer to be too bitter to drink; I think Stone IPA is just nice. But now I'm a bit worried.

I wonder if it was the gypsum, the RO water, the using extract instead of grain, or just using the two ounces of 60 minute hops plus nearly 2 ounces of 30 minute hops.

 

[budbo]

Are you using leaf, plugs or pellets? If you are using a bag you need to increase the hops by as much as 30% (depending on the type bag)

 

[bobbrews]

If you are using a bag you need to increase the hops by as much as 30% (depending on the type bag)

Disagree (if using the 5 gallon nylon mesh paint strainer bags).

Never noticed any differences in the final beer (of otherwise the same recipe) whether the hops were tossed in loose, or bagged.

 

[chumpsteak]

Holy crap, the hydrometer sample was throat-searingly bitter.

Is the hydrometer sample supposed to be sweet for an IPA, or is it OK if it's already pretty bitter? Is there any chance that it will become less bitter with fermentation? I figured it's not possible for a beer to be too bitter to drink; I think Stone IPA is just nice. But now I'm a bit worried.

I wonder if it was the gypsum, the RO water, the using extract instead of grain, or just using the two ounces of 60 minute hops plus nearly 2 ounces of 30 minute hops.

It'll be fine. I don't think you can judge the way a beer will taste based on the hydrometer sample. I've had plenty of IPAs that tasted extremely bitter pre-fermentation and not nearly bitter enough after it was carbed and kegged. Ride it out.

On another note, I've also recently discovered that carbonation can interfere with bitterness perception, the more carbonic acid in solution the more tart the ipa will taste and it covers up the bitterness. I've started carbing my beers to lower volumes and it has improved the bitterness perception in my beers.

 

[lockwom]

I've been having the same problem as you on all my hop forward beers. It's been killing me trying to figure it out. I've tried all the same things as you and haven't been able to figure out how to get deep lingering bitterness in my hoppy beers. I've been getting very hoppy and citrusy beers with tons of hop flavor and aroma but more of a tart flavor than bitterness. I've had my water tested and done all the additions and while it has helped the bulk of my beers I still haven't been able to get the deep bitterness I crave in my Pales and IPAs. 2 weeks ago my brew buddy and I tried to clone a local beer that we have the recipe for. This was the 4th time we've tried with limited success due to the bitterness problem. He lives about 5 miles away from the brewery and since they reportedly don't treat their water we decided to try brewing with tap water from his house. We didn't do any additions for this beer expect for a campden tablet and the bitterness came out really deep and bitter like we wanted.

I've been reading like crazy and racking my brain all week and I think I've figured it out. I think the issue is a combination of not using enough bittering (60 min) hops and mash pH. I've been reading on the water forums how I need to get my mash down to 5.3 so I've been shooting for that with acid and salt additions. The water we used for this batch is low in minerals but around 100 alkalinity. The measured pH for this mash came in at 5.7. Seemed high to me, but apparently that was the ticket to get the bitterness where it was supposed to be.

Also for what it's worth, the chloride and sulphate in the water we used and that the brewery uses are both around 20 ppm and this beer is by far the most bitter I've ever made and tasted. It's also rated at 130 IBU in beersmith and is only a 6.4% beer. It's a really high IBU beer but I was not able to make a bitter version of it until I used the higher alkaline water and higher mash pH.

Alpha acid isomerization increases with higher pH. Perhaps you could mash at 5.3 and make a very small pickling lime addition after sparging to reach your ideal pH?

Then you can improve starch conversion efficiency, but yield the bitterness you desire?

 

[chumpsteak]

My efficiency was normal and the beer is now crystal clear after a couple weeks in the keg. I don't think the 5.7 mash pH affected starch conversion at all. FG was on target at 1.010. Seems that the only thing the higher mash pH did was improve hop utilization and bitterness. I just made another high ibu ipa last week and added some pickling lime to the mash to bring mash pH up to 5.7 again. Will see how it turns out in a couple weeks.

 

[BetterSense]

Well, I'm drinking my latest IPA attempt and it turned out pretty good, but it's by no means super bitter. I would say it barely has enough bitterness to be called a proper IPA, which is better than my previous attempts, but less than I was expecting. And with 1.5 lb of corn sugar and a 1.011 final gravity, I don't think it's malt sweetness covering up any bitterness.

It could be that there is something wrong with my tastebuds and I can't taste bitterness. However, I'm just trying to emulate what I taste in commercial IPAs.

100% RO water with 1tsp of gypsum
8lb Light LME
1.5lb Corn Sugar
1/2lb steeped crystal 60L

1 oz Warrior 14% 60min
1 oz Northern Brewer 10% 60min
1 3/4 oz Northern Brewer 10% 30min
2 oz Cascade 6% 15min
2 oz Cascade 6% 0min

 

[Yooper]

Well, I'm drinking my latest IPA attempt and it turned out pretty good, but it's by no means super bitter. I would say it barely has enough bitterness to be called a proper IPA, which is better than my previous attempts, but less than I was expecting. And with 1.5 lb of corn sugar and a 1.011 final gravity, I don't think it's malt sweetness covering up any bitterness.

It could be that there is something wrong with my tastebuds and I can't taste bitterness. However, I'm just trying to emulate what I taste in commercial IPAs.

A teaspoon of gypsum really isn't all that much. If you use a spreadsheet (like brunwater), you can see the actual amount of sulfate, but in a 5 gallon batch with RO water, a teaspoon may not give you the amount of sulfate you desire. I like less in my beers, but you may go up to 350 ppm with sulfate if your taste buds like it.

 

[D_Nyholm]

I too am drinking my most recent IPA and notice that it is definitely bitter but it is lacking aroma. I added an additional .5 oz of centennial at 5 minutes and dry hopped with 2 oz of cascade. I am thinking of throwing another ounce of cascade in the keg to see if that helps with the aroma. It just seems strange that I can't get the aroma with that amount of hops. Makes me wonder what the breweries dry hop with in order to get the aroma they and I desire!

 

[midfielder5]

A teaspoon of gypsum really isn't all that much. If you use a spreadsheet (like brunwater).. in a 5 gallon batch with RO water ...you may go up to 350 ppm with sulfate if your taste buds like it.

Use a water calculator, but like Yoop said you can probably triple the amount of gyp. with RO water.

Same with your hops. You need more hops!! and blend in another type w/ your Cascade.
Take a look at a Pliny IIPA recipe for an example.. .it is something like 10-12 oz of hops in the boil kettle for 5 gallons. and you really need to dry hop an IPA with at least 2 (more like 4 oz). Pliny is about 7-8 oz dry hop.
good luck.
Wendy

 

[BetterSense]

Same with your hops. You need more hops!!

Apparently so. However, I don't understand why all the recipes on HBT don't work for me. For example, Edwort's IPA has only 1 ounce of bittering addition. For my latest been I used 2 ounces at 60 minutes and another 2 ounces at 30 minutes and the beer is barely bitter.

Somebody else brought up hop aroma to hijack my thread. I'm not having any problems with hop aroma whatsoever, all it takes is 2-4 oz of hops for a few days and I have all the hop aroma I need. It actually doesn't work out that well because without the bitterness, the hop aroma is kind of cloying.

 

[midfielder5]

30 min additions are for flavor. 60 min are bittering. It sounds like a water issue also.

 

[D_Nyholm]

Apparently so. However, I don't understand why all the recipes on HBT don't work for me. For example, Edwort's IPA has only 1 ounce of bittering addition. For my latest been I used 2 ounces at 60 minutes and another 2 ounces at 30 minutes and the beer is barely bitter.

Somebody else brought up hop aroma to hijack my thread. I'm not having any problems with hop aroma whatsoever, all it takes is 2-4 oz of hops for a few days and I have all the hop aroma I need. It actually doesn't work out that well because without the bitterness, the hop aroma is kind of cloying.

I apologize for 'jacking' your thread but I was having a similar problem as you achieving bitterness. Though with my most recent IPA I had the bitterness but not the aroma. I was thinking they may be related as I was missing the bitterness AND the aroma in my previous attempts and this one was missing just aroma. I guess I'll just go hide under a rock until you figure out your problem that I thought was related to mine.