Priming causing off flavor?

[andruss15]

Hello fellow brewers, I have been having an issue that I combed through the forums to try and figure out myself but I gotta ask.

Here's the situation. I have a few brews under my belt now and have been running into a particular flavor. The BEST way I can describe it is "sweet" but "buttery" may work too. I use brewers friend to calculate my priming sugar needs for some brews, others I have simply used the 5oz of dextrose that is called for in the recipe.

The thing is - when I calculate the priming sugar and use the correct amount I do not get the "sweet" flavor, BUT I tend to have an undercarbonated beer... When I simply use the 5 oz (or slightly less) I absolutely get that off flavor but have a wonderfully carbonated beer. What gives?

 

[kh54s10]

I don't think the amount of priming sugar would be causing your problem.

I don't know why you would be getting under carbonated beer if you were using a calculator. It might be a little less but it should be well carbonated. On the other side of the coin just using a full 5 oz. pack of priming sugar could easily lead to over carbonated beer.

When you use a calculator and it asks for the temperature of the beer, input the highest temperature the beer reached during fermentation. This is trying to account for co2 already in solution.

What are your conditioning procedures? You should be near 70 degrees for at least 2 weeks, maybe 3, then chilling for at least a day and up to a week.

Buttery off flavor: http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/04/21/diacetyl-in-home-brewed-beer-the-butterscotch-flavor/

 

[andruss15]

Thank you for the reply. I have read other forums that said the priming is not the issue, however the beer tastes excellent before I bottle.

My conditioning procedures consist of 2 weeks at 72 degrees and usually 3 or 4 days after that in the fridge.

Thank you for the article link - I actually read that one and a few others and thought I may be over-pitching yeast but again, the beer has tasted excellent before priming. Also, one of the Irish Red's I brewed was quite possibly under pitched (mistakes of a first brew) and also had the "sweet" taste as I used nearly the whole 5oz dextrose package when bottling.

 

[kh54s10]

Again, sweet as a problem is most likely occurring before you bottle it. The difference between using 4 or so ounces of a 5 ounce pack or the whole pack would be in carbonation levels. I doubt you could tell the difference in sweetness if you were to do a side by side.

I find that most of my beers taste quite different before carbonation and after. A couple of times I tasted before carbonation and thought to myself this one is not going to be good. After carbonation it was quite tasty.

For the Irish Red, what are you comparing it to? An Irish Red it going to be sweeter than a typical pale ale for instance.

 

[unionrdr]

It's not the priming sugar causing the off-flavor. But, rather, bringing it out where you can smell & taste it more easily. You're definitely getting a bit of Diacetyl from something? Whether by some dirty bit of unsanitized equipment causing a infection. Also, allowing time after FG is reached for the yeast to clean up this & other by-products of fermentation. At this same time, it'll also settle out clear or slightly misty while it mops up. Allowing 3-7 days for this clean up time is always a good thing in the normal course of your process. A healthy pitch of the right amount of yeast is always a good thing too, but you also have top keep the Initial primary ferment temps in that particular yeast's sweet spot. This has the effect of minimizing the amounts of these various by-products that are considered off-flavors.

 

[andruss15]

kh54s10 - The Irish Red I understand will be sweeter because it will be more malt forward than hop forward, but this is a distinct sweetness that differs from malty sweetness.

unionrdr - I think that's what is happening, the priming sugar is causing the issue to come out, so to speak. My local home brew shop also suggested poor cleaning/sanitizing. I tend to clean all my equipment directly after use using B-brite then sanitize all equipment using Starsan. My ferment temps are at about 72 degrees for all my brews which is up towards the high end for most of the yeasts I'm using, could this be the contributing factor?

 

[unionrdr]

Do you mean you clean your equipment, then sanitize before storage? I do that as well, but do you sanitize again right before use? If not, that could be your culprit. And that 72F temp could cause a little Diacetyl as you describe. Depending on the yeast used, how much, how healthy when pitched, etc.

 

[andruss15]

I usually clean after use but do not sanitize until I'm ready to use (usually it's both a cleaning and sanitizing directly before use)

 

[unionrdr]

It would be better to clean them before storage. Any small scratches could harbor colonies of bacteria that can cause this. Cleaning right before use & sanitizing might not be getting them all? I use keg line cleaning brushes to scrub the inside of my tubing with PBW. Also, are you using buckets as primary fermenters with spigots on them? The spigots need to be cleaned & sanitized before being reinstalled to help prevent infectious nasty's building up in them & under the seals. Are you allowing any time for the yeast to clean up after the beer reaches FG? If not, you may need to.

 

[andruss15]

I'll give that a try - for the most part I clean the spigot, it comes off after every use but maybe my cleaning of it has been lackluster. I may also buy a new spring top bottle filler. I have a separate bucket for primary fermentation other than the one with the bottling spigot. For most beers I run a 2 week primary fermentation and rack to a secondary carboy for 2 weeks. Should I be doing more/less?

 

[kh54s10]

Try controlling your fermentation temperatures also. It may not be what is causing this problem but will make your beer better.

If 72 is your ambient temperature the wort temperature may be getting as high as 82 degrees.

I look at the temperature range for each yeast and ferment just below the mid point. So for most ale yeasts that would be the mid sixties.

 

[andruss15]

Yeah temperature control has been a bit of an issue for me. I live on the 4th floor in an apartment and don't have a whole lot of room to have much temperature control equipment

 

[kh54s10]

I'll give that a try - for the most part I clean the spigot, it comes off after every use but maybe my cleaning of it has been lackluster. I may also buy a new spring top bottle filler. I have a separate bucket for primary fermentation other than the one with the bottling spigot. For most beers I run a 2 week primary fermentation and rack to a secondary carboy for 2 weeks. Should I be doing more/less?

This fermentation schedule is plenty if not unnecessarily long. Most fermentations are done in 3-7 days so another few days to clear and clean up is enough. I started out with a 2-2 schedule and have cut to a 3 week primary and more recently to about 14 days then package.

Doing a secondary, unless adding fruit etc. or long aging, is really just another chance to contaminate or oxidize the beer.

 

[unionrdr]

I'll give that a try - for the most part I clean the spigot, it comes off after every use but maybe my cleaning of it has been lackluster. I may also buy a new spring top bottle filler. I have a separate bucket for primary fermentation other than the one with the bottling spigot. For most beers I run a 2 week primary fermentation and rack to a secondary carboy for 2 weeks. Should I be doing more/less?

I soak my spigot & it's parts (seals, lock lug, etc) in PBW in one of those plastic deli-style lunch meat containers. Then clean them out with aquarium filter lift tube brushes. Then rinse, soak in Starsan, & reassemble wet. I clean the mounting hole too. The secondary carboy should also have minimal headspace, as too much of it can let nasty's take hold. Besides being cleaned & sanitized. I also have the parlor in the front of the house as my man cave/brewery, & just got a window A/C unit to cool this room separately, so as to better control ferment temps. Do you have a window in that room to use one? A door to it that can be kept closed?

 

[andruss15]

The AC unit would unfortunately be a no go right now but hopefully in the next year I'll be in my own house and can have the room/availability for something like that.

As to what you and kh54 said about secondary, I may start only using it if I need to add something or dry hop and I tend to always have a lot of head space because when I transfer there is a lot of trub sitting at the bottom of the primary. Should I get a different carboy?

 

[unionrdr]

Many of us dry hop in primary & it works just fine. As for secondary's, I for one only use them for fruit additions or when oaking the beer right before bottling. One less step that could oxidize the beer & less to clean. & the secondary size should match the recipe volume size. 5 gallon carboy/ secondary for 5 gallon batch, 6 gallon for a 6 gallon batch, etc. You need to minimize headspace to prevent nasty's from getting air they need to propagate. And straining the wort into primary will give a lot less compacted trub & yeast to deal with later, ie-trub losses.

 

[TheHopfather]

You've gotten lots of good advice so far, I would add that you may also want to look at your bottles. You could have perfectly great beer going into dirty bottles and end up ruining a batch that way. PBW soak the bottles, rinse, dry and then sanitize them with Starsan on bottling day. When I first started I ruined a couple of batches with dirty bottles before I got a handle on it.

 

[unionrdr]

I found that I need to soak my bottles that are in rotation in PBW, scrub inside & out,rinse & dry on bottle tree before storage & next use every few batches.

 

[andruss15]

I soak my bottle in the cleaning solution then rinse them well and dry them. After that I use the baking method where the bottles are topped with aluminum foil and baked at 350 degrees for 90 minutes.

 

[andruss15]

However that is not how I've always done it. Other batches in the past have been sanitized with star San after soaking in cleaning solution

 

[Brew_G]

I've gotten the buttery flavor/aroma in bottled beers when using harvested Bell's yeast (two different harvests from different beers), but not any others. It's interesting because it's not there at bottling time, but comes on in full force in the bottle. I was concerned that it could be some sort of infection or dirty bottles, but since it doesn't happen with any other yeast, I'm putting it down the the Bell's.

I find that it fades quickly after about 3-4 weeks after bottling. Has that butteriness faded for you, or does it stick around?

 

[jabba11]

might be helpful to describe your bottling process.. As an example you said youre adding sugar. Are you boiling that in water prior too etc? Cooling it down then adding? I agree with the idea that I don't think the off taste is actually coming from the priming sugar but most likely in something you are or aren't doing, equipment infection maybe etc. Does the flavor STAY in the bottle? Some beers need time etc. An Irish red usually doesn't need a ton of time or anything though. One thing I have seen is that many problems in the forum are just stated without fully explaining the processes that were used which leads to more or less guessing on the part of the people commenting.

 

[andruss15]

For my bottling process I am using baked beer bottles or sometimes bottles dunked in StarSan. All bottles are cleaned before baking or sanitizing by using B-brite or another cleanser. When it comes time to bottle, I am siphoning the beer to a clean, sanitized bottling bucket. As for priming, I am boiling my dextrose in at least 2 cups of water for approximately 5 minutes then cooling before adding to the beer - in some cases I will put the sugar solution in the bottling bucket before siphoning the beer in. I then attach the hose to the spigot with a bottle filler on the end and fill the bottles.

 

[unionrdr]

Here's the common off flavors chapter from " How To Brew". this should help you figure it out...http://howtobrew.com/book/section-4/is-my-beer-ruined/common-off-flavors