popped off the pa nel cover today and my house panel is completely full! CRAP!

[GJOCONNELL]

I was laying out the game plan to run a 240v/40 amp homerun from the panel to the back shed. Was doing all the research and was about to start the part list but decided to check the panel and the rat bastard is full!

So the DIY just went out the door have to call an electrician to see what the $ will be to get a new run for a small panel probably just price out a 50 amp because if I have to do a new run why not make sure I have the capacity for the future if I go all electric!

Bah...

 

[nobadays]

Have you thought about using tandem circuit breakers? That is if your panel doesn'talready have these installed. They use the space of one breaker but allow two circuits in the same space. Google em!

Cheers!

 

[kristiismean]

what is your service rated at?

you can add another panel, (Subpanel)

 

[IslandLizard]

Also check for obsolete breakers that may be removed. Such as those from old resistance baseboard heaters, under cabinet heaters, etc.

Definitely run a 50A, perhaps more if you need heat and AC in there too.
Only do this once, the right way.

 

[BrunDog]

All good suggestions but you can't just add if the incoming service can't support it.

 

[mongoose33]

All good suggestions but you can't just add if the incoming service can't support it.

Actually, you can add an infinite number of circuits and breakers; you just can't run them all at once.

I have 200-amp service to my house, and my breaker box is also full. I believe I have 40 slots, virtually all filled with 20-amp breakers. A few are higher than that, for the air conditioning and dryer, e.g.

40 x 20 is 800 amps, which the 200-amp breaker would never support. But we're never running everything at once, and no circuit is maxed out (or the breaker would pop).

OP should probably get an electrician to add a sub-panel. I need one of those too, though I'm going to look into those breakers that let you have two breakers in one slot. I've thought of adding an electric brewing system but I need to free up enough slots to even consider that--or add a sub-panel.

 

[GJOCONNELL]

Have you thought about using tandem circuit breakers? That is if your panel doesn'talready have these installed. They use the space of one breaker but allow two circuits in the same space. Google em!

Cheers!

I will check that out. My panel doesn't have a ton of spots (20 in total) and 4 of them are blocked by the main coming in.
I googled I might need to get a pro to help. I was fine running #8 wire for a 4 wire plug and doing that properly.

 

[GJOCONNELL]

Also check for obsolete breakers that may be removed. Such as those from old resistance baseboard heaters, under cabinet heaters, etc.

Definitely run a 50A, perhaps more if you need heat and AC in there too.
Only do this once, the right way.

My shed is a tiny shed I don't have the space for much of anything....it is packed!

I am going to have a pro give a free estimate (have four of them coming) we will see what they say!

 

[GJOCONNELL]

Actually, you can add an infinite number of circuits and breakers; you just can't run them all at once.

I have 200-amp service to my house, and my breaker box is also full. I believe I have 40 slots, virtually all filled with 20-amp breakers. A few are higher than that, for the air conditioning and dryer, e.g.

40 x 20 is 800 amps, which the 200-amp breaker would never support. But we're never running everything at once, and no circuit is maxed out (or the breaker would pop).

OP should probably get an electrician to add a sub-panel. I need one of those too, though I'm going to look into those breakers that let you have two breakers in one slot. I've thought of adding an electric brewing system but I need to free up enough slots to even consider that--or add a sub-panel.

My guess is that the elec, will recommend a subpanel. In that event I will ask for pricing to have a 50 amp run.

 

[ChrisC16]

Get an electrician to install a small sub panel at the main panel and do the run yourself to save some $, or if you have an older house maybe a new panel with more capacity is an option, as well as having a up to date panel.

 

[GJOCONNELL]

Get an electrician to install a small sub panel at the main panel and do the run yourself to save some $, or if you have an older house maybe a new panel with more capacity is an option, as well as having a up to date panel.

I will probably ask for the sub panel route. The house isn't super old (built in 1979) but the panel is small.

We will see what they recommend on Friday!

 

[golfindia]

Putting in a sub panel is expensive overkill. Unless you do laundry and bake cakes while you brew, you can share one/both of those. Many ways to do that.

 

[augiedoggy]

Putting in a sub panel is expensive overkill. Unless you do laundry and bake cakes while you brew, you can share one/both of those. Many ways to do that.

it can be more complicated than that.... My electric was redone in the 70s as well and for some reason the can aluminum wire and its only 100amps... I have a hot tub that requires 60 amps alone and randomly turns itself on at full bore to run cleaning cycles... I also have a salt water reef tank with 400w of lighting and many pumps and the brewery... now just think if I had a 50amp draw in my brewery instead of 30? or if I had an electric stove or dryer or were running a few window ac units while brewing... or even a couple plasma tvs which were up to a few hundred watts each to run?
It doesnt take much to overload a 100 amp service and frankly im suprised having 800 amps of devices connected to a 200 amp service is allowed whether the current home owner is educated enough about what to run when or not... these rules and regulations are usually dumbed down and overkill so we all pay for others possible ignorance.

There are older houses still out there with 60amp services.. it it something to be mindful of.

luckily I own a duplex and its 100amps on each side so I did things like wire the garage up off one service and hot tube on another..

 

[GJOCONNELL]

I believe mine is also a 100 amp service and is very common in the area. To confirm I have to go back and check my home renovation build notes. When we bought our house 5 yrs ago now we had the whole house re-done (I didn't even know what wort was back then let alone being concerned with do I need a 30 amp run to my shed for home brewing?...LOL). Anyway we had in the build to get a new panel with 200 amp service and our contractor told us the city didn't have runs to hook up 200 amp service we would need to request a line and wait plus we would have to pay for the line run...I remember this well because I crapped a brick and we were already over the original budget scope by $20k. Anyway we had $5k for a new panel, line run, yada yada. The prelim quote just to get the line run from the city was $5-$15k and a possible 6 month wait time....so needless to say we said EFF THAT. Anyway I did check the panel last night and I do see tandem/slim breakers just not sure how much more room I have for tandem breakers but it appears that might be the most economical route to go....subpanel is not ideal.

I don't a spa just the usual washer/dryer combo and a standard kitchen most of the TVs are LED but no other crazy power demands. I do have three 15 amp runs to the A/V cabinet because I 4 A/V units and one separate marantz that can pull pretty hard (it is on one of the 15 amp connections by itself).

I may just settle for a 120v RIMS hop rocket for now and down the line go the 30/50 amp route.

In hindsight I should have asked my contractor to run a 30 amp back when we re-did the house but oh well live and learn.

 

[mongoose33]

It doesnt take much to overload a 100 amp service and frankly im suprised having 800 amps of devices connected to a 200 amp service is allowed whether the current home owner is educated enough about what to run when or not... these rules and regulations are usually dumbed down and overkill so we all pay for others possible ignorance.

This is the reason why circuit breakers are used. If you overload a circuit the breaker pops preventing an overload.

Every individual circuit is protected that way, as well as the entire house w/ a 200-amp breaker.

Think about it--if you could only have the number of sub-breakers equal to the power coming in, you'd only have five 20-amp breakers--and circuits--available with a 100-amp service. Or only 6 with 15-amp breakers.

I'm not sure what you think would happen--if you run too many appliances at once on the same circuit, breakers will pop, which is what they're supposed to do. And if you somehow, some way, manage to have more than 200 amps of devices going at once, you will pop the house breaker--which is what it is supposed to do.

I've never popped the whole-house breaker, and can't remember the last time I had a normal breaker pop.

 

[BrunDog]

Agreed. There must be some code guidance relating service/panel capacity to total breaker amperage, no?

 

[IslandLizard]

Agreed. There must be some code guidance relating service/panel capacity to total breaker amperage, no?

There must be, I'm curious too.

Most 200A panels have 40 spaces.
40 spaces using 10A per space (on average) could potentially draw 400A. With a maximum usage rate of 50% that would be around 200A, the max for the panel.

But more realistically, in today's world, the panel will be populated with 12-15A per space. That totals to 480-600A. Is a usage rate of 30-40% the acceptable norm?

I guess one needs to calculate on a case to case basis, the anticipated maximum draw at any given time, to know if a panel is correctly sized.

 

[Bobbybob]

What is your main? With 16 slots at a guess you don't have more than a 125.

 

[augiedoggy]

This is the reason why circuit breakers are used. If you overload a circuit the breaker pops preventing an overload.

Every individual circuit is protected that way, as well as the entire house w/ a 200-amp breaker.

Think about it--if you could only have the number of sub-breakers equal to the power coming in, you'd only have five 20-amp breakers--and circuits--available with a 100-amp service. Or only 6 with 15-amp breakers.

I'm not sure what you think would happen--if you run too many appliances at once on the same circuit, breakers will pop, which is what they're supposed to do. And if you somehow, some way, manage to have more than 200 amps of devices going at once, you will pop the house breaker--which is what it is supposed to do.

I've never popped the whole-house breaker, and can't remember the last time I had a normal breaker pop.

Yes I know how a breaker works (When its working correctly) I also know they will allow so much surrent draw for so long before popping. I have also seen them fail though Ive been told its not all that common.

My point really was that it you cant just keep wiring more and more stuff off of a circuit that can only handle a fraction of it and expect to have everything work correctly.. Yes with proper thought and consideration you can wire more than the panel can handle depending on the appliances and thier function but for example in my case my hot tub comes on by itself to run maintenance and my reef tank is also on timers. If I had another high draw device running at the same time I would likely get blown breakers.

Ive read here more than once where someone was told by thier electrician they would need a larger service to add the 50a line (or even 30a) so I just dont think its as simple as squeezing more tandem breakers in for everyone. especially those of us with old homes and 100 amp or even 60amp services.

in any case I believe GJOCONNELL started another thread discussing this further and he had an electrician come look at it which told him he already has a number of things that dont meet code...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=599672

 

[GJOCONNELL]

Yeah I did start another thread but I think what I am doing to do is get two more bids and not mention anything from the prior guy. See where the pricing comes in at between the three of them.

I wasn't surprised that the contractor we used during the remodel didn't do things 100% correct it was odd he was good with certain things but his guys would just gloss over stuff and try to take the short cut most of the time unless we hawked them which my wife did.

Anyway if the other people confirm the same issues I will try to get everything fixed to code and have a 50 amp run to the garage I will just have to be mindful of using several high power devices at once. I have a gas range and gas heater.

 

[itsnotrequired]

Agreed. There must be some code guidance relating service/panel capacity to total breaker amperage, no?

the nec is actually quite specific about how to tabulate electrical loads and determine the minimum size service required. it includes service demand factors to place on specific loads, minimum capacity to include for lighting/general receptacles, etc. it is not at all uncommon for the total of the individual branch circuit break ratings to greatly exceed the main...and that is totally cool by code. the requirements are established based on decades of historical data related to how electricity is operated within a home. i have a 200 amp service in my home and i'm pretty sure if i turned on my sauna, brewery, air conditioner, oven, dryer, irrigation pump, all the lights, plug in some slow cookers, turn on the vacuum cleaner, etc. all at once, i would trip the main but what is the likelihood of me doing that? code recognizes this and allows for it.

and the rules evolve over time, based on technological developments and just the way we use electricity. for example, a 60 amp service for a single family home was not at all uncommon back in the 1950s. today, you can't get a new service rated less than 100 amp, no matter how small your house is.

also keep in mind that when discussing service amperage, it is based on 240 volts. so a 100 amp service has 100 amps available at 240 volt. if all loads in the home are 120 volt, than 200 amps are available. tripping the main on a 200 amp service in a typical home is really hard to do.

 

[timdillon36]

I want to run "real" power to my detached garage so I can run a real air compressor and more importantly a welder. Right now I have 20a and can run the lights and one power tool but Tim always needs more power.

Plus if I run 100 there in a power outage I could backfend 100 to the house from a generator.

Gender mender extention cord, plug in the dead side first.

 

[BrunDog]

Oh boy. Here we go...

 

[GJOCONNELL]

Lol

 

[timdillon36]

I'm not sure how to stir any harder.

 

[dbt1980]

Can you post a pic of your panel with the cover off? I'm a electrical contractor in Utah maybe I can offer suggestions