Poor efficiency on first batch?

[Dirty]

Would low sparge and mash out temps reduce my efficiency? Though i was playing it safe by shooting for 65% but got closer to 57%. FWIW i have a cheap dial thermometer that i used on the strike water and im wondering if its not the most accurate. Think i may just use it as an excuse to upgrade.

Rock Chalk 2011 Big 12 Champs

Chris

 

[MalFet]

Some people say they see a big difference with hot sparging, but I never have. I sparge with cold water and didn't notice my efficiency dropping when I started doing that. Say more about your process. How much did you stir after the various infusions?

 

[Dirty]

MalFet

11lbs of grain 4 Gallon batch. I Doughed in with 3.5 gallons of 165degree strike water and rested for1 hour stirring at 30 min and before vorlouf let the mash settle for minute then drained. Sparged with 2.6 gallons of 170 degree water and rested again for 15 minutes. Vorloufed and collected my final runnings with an preboil gravity of 1.045ish.

Thanks for the help

Rock Chalk 2011 Big 12 Champs

Chris

 

[MalFet]

How'd you dough in? You really need to stir until your arm feels like it's about to fall off.

 

[Northcalais40]

More important than the strike water temp is the settled mash temp. Your tun will absorb some heat if it is not preheated. A low mash temp will usually need a longer mash period. If you cut it short you'll lose efficiency. You can check for mash conversion to be sure.

 

[Dirty]

MalFet


1.5 quarts per pound. Stirred for 5 min or so made sure there were no hard spots most of the mash was the consistency of runny oatmeal. No uneven spots and used a slotted spoon with good size holes.

Northcalais

Preheated my mash ton with 1.5 gal of hot water that was at about 180*. Left the lid on until i was ready to dough in. Tun was good and steamy when i was ready to dough in

Wound up hitting target Gravity with 14oz of Turbinado sugar. Pitched yeast and it now bubbling away lest than 12 hours later

 

[flabyboy]

I use about 1.3 qt/lb and do 3 total runnings with 2 equal sparges. I use about 180 degree water for the sparge. I have been getting 75% efficiency with my rubbermaid cooler mastun with this method

 

[Dirty]

I use about 1.3 qt/lb and do 3 total runnings with 2 equal sparges. I use about 180 degree water for the sparge. I have been getting 75% efficiency with my rubbermaid cooler mastun with this method

Im sure after going over my process in my head my sparge wasnt hot enough Had to transfer it to a bucket from my kettle that i use to heat strike water as i have a HLT/kettle combo requiring a bucket for sparge water as i collect my runnings

Rock Chalk

Chris

 

[MalFet]

Im sure after going over my process in my head my sparge wasnt hot enough Had to transfer it to a bucket from my kettle that i use to heat strike water as i have a HLT/kettle combo requiring a bucket for sparge water as i collect my runnings

Rock Chalk

Chris

I sparge completely cold and don't see a loss of efficiency. But, others swear they do see a difference and I'm not sure how to explain that.

 

[devilishprune]

Where did you get your grain milled? That's usually this biggest problem that people have with efficiency. Did you get your volume into the fermenter or was it higher/lower than you wanted?

Next time, try to take the gravity of your first runnings or do an iodine test on your mash to see if conversion is complete. If your mash didn't totally convert it can cause a loss of efficiency.

 

[ajf]

I sparge completely cold and don't see a loss of efficiency. But, others swear they do see a difference and I'm not sure how to explain that.

I fly sparge.
I used to not do a mash out, and got 75% efficiency reliably. My sparge temperatures never got above the mid 150's Then I read that a mash out was recommended for fly spargers, so I tried it. My efficiency increased by 10% with the mash out, and the sparge temperature increased to the mid to upper 160's.
Not surprisingly (because this is what I had read), I jumped to the conclusion that the increased sparge temperature was responsible for the efficiency increase.
I now think that the real reason for the increase in efficiency is that the mash out water was thoroughly stirred before starting the sparge, and that this stirring dissolved a much higher percentage of the sugars than would be achieved with an unstirred mash.

-a.

 

[MalFet]

I fly sparge.
I used to not do a mash out, and got 75% efficiency reliably. My sparge temperatures never got above the mid 150's Then I read that a mash out was recommended for fly spargers, so I tried it. My efficiency increased by 10% with the mash out, and the sparge temperature increased to the mid to upper 160's.
Not surprisingly (because this is what I had read), I jumped to the conclusion that the increased sparge temperature was responsible for the efficiency increase.
I now think that the real reason for the increase in efficiency is that the mash out water was thoroughly stirred before starting the sparge, and that this stirring dissolved a much higher percentage of the sugars than would be achieved with an unstirred mash.

-a.

Yeah, Kaiser said something similar in describing his experiments: the reason people see higher efficiencies with hot sparging has more to do with the hot water functioning as a dextrin-rest. I mash-out too, and have never found any observable difference between hot and cold sparges.

 

[flabyboy]

I sparge completely cold and don't see a loss of efficiency. But, others swear they do see a difference and I'm not sure how to explain that.

Why do you sparge cold? Save on propane? One thing I like about a hot sparge is get to a boil fairly quick. My grain bed gets to about 165 with 180 sparge water. I do not mash out. I just get my first runnings on the burner and start warming them up

 

[MalFet]

Why do you sparge cold? Save on propane? One thing I like about a hot sparge is get to a boil fairly quick. My grain bed gets to about 165 with 180 sparge water. I do not mash out. I just get my first runnings on the burner and start warming them up

It wouldn't really save on propane, because you then have to heat the cold water up anyway. It's just a simpler system for me. I have a single vessel recirculating system. I brew on my kitchen stove and go from flame-on to cleaned-up in about 4.5 hours. It just means one less pot I have to own, one less temperature to regulate, one less transfer I have to make, etc.

Back at the OP, if you have trouble on your next mash, consider using Braukaiser's trouble shooting guide.

 

[Northcalais40]

Actually cold sparging ( though I don't do it) does save on propane. If you heat sparge water, then the whole time you are sparging heat is escaping to the atmosphere by convection and/or conduction. This is heat lost that needs to be added again.

Damn, you must have one hell of a kitchen stove. I don't think I could get a 5 gal. boil going in 4.5 hours.

 

[pelipen]

Would low sparge and mash out temps reduce my efficiency? Though i was playing it safe by shooting for 65% but got closer to 57%. FWIW i have a cheap dial thermometer that i used on the strike water and im wondering if its not the most accurate. Think i may just use it as an excuse to upgrade.

Rock Chalk 2011 Big 12 Champs

Chris

Maybe the crush? I just did my second NB all-grain kit, and both kits looked very coarse, some grains not even crushed. Both times I had efficiencies in the low 60's. I only got 4 gallons into my carboy, and pretty bummed about it.
With my local store, I was in the low 80's. I'm beginning to understand the obsession with crush quality.

My "best" thermometer is off by 8 degrees relative to two others. I don't use it anymore. It would certainly be a good investment to upgrade yours to limit the variables.

 

[dshaggy]

I just started fly sparging and have been getting about 80% efficiency. I always sparge with water thats about 170 because it does a mash out, and gives the runnings that much more of a headstart to the boil. I also tend to think that hot water will wash out sugar faster than cold water will. Cold maple syrup runs slower than warm maple syrup.

 

[MalFet]

I just started fly sparging and have been getting about 80% efficiency. I always sparge with water thats about 170 because it does a mash out, and gives the runnings that much more of a headstart to the boil. I also tend to think that hot water will wash out sugar faster than cold water will. Cold maple syrup runs slower than warm maple syrup.

That is certainly the argument people usually use against cold sparging. But, the actual data seems to demonstrate otherwise.

@OP - Sorry this got derailed. If you have any other questions, speak up.

 

[Dirty]

i crushed my own with a corona mill (thanks MW66) Took a look a some other crush example on HBT and when i got to a similar sample i left the mill set as is. Going to give it a go again in a week or so with a Pale Ale. If i get a higher gravity ill make an IPA if its lower ill make a ESB and go back to the drawing board. Going to try to hit a higher sparge temp and see if that helps gelitanize the sugars in he mash or maybe try adding a multi temp rest. Or maybe im getting a little ahead of my self for only my second ag batch.

Thanks everyone for all your help.

Rock Chalk

Chris

 

[MalFet]

i crushed my own with a corona mill (thanks MW66) Took a look a some other crush example on HBT and when i got to a similar sample i left the mill set as is. Going to give it a go again in a week or so with a Pale Ale. If i get a higher gravity ill make an IPA if its lower ill make a ESB and go back to the drawing board. Going to try to hit a higher sparge temp and see if that helps gelitanize the sugars in he mash or maybe try adding a multi temp rest. Or maybe im getting a little ahead of my self for only my second ag batch.

Thanks everyone for all your help.

Rock Chalk

Chris

That's the first thing to check then. Coronas are sometimes tricky to calibrate properly. Take a picture of your next grind, maybe?

 

[Dirty]

Thanks everyone again for your help. Just bottled my batch and it seem to be in good shape. Sample for FG tasted great for being flat. Finished gravity was 1.008 again a close miss. I guess its like bbq, as long as it tastes good and no on dies its ok. Guess ill just have to keep practicing

Thanks again

Rock Chalk

Chris

 

[Dirty]

Think i may have found my problem. Today made my another batch. I had stuck my thermometer in the boiling wort to pasturize it and the reading was 230* I had calibrated it when i first bought it and didn't use it during the boil of my first batch because i figured i didn't need it once the boil was rolling. So that put my thermometer at least 18* off, meaning my strike water was 147* and my mash temp 137*

This time i did an iodine test and the iodine did not turn black. Meaning that i had full conversion. Correct? Should i next time mash for 90Min and see if it improves.

Thanks

Rock Chalk

Chris

 

[Dirty]

HELLS YEAH


Did an India Brown Ale today and got 70% efficiency.

Thanks everyone for your help

Rock Chalk

Chris