Poor efficiency- first all grain batch

[rustygates]

So I did my first all grain batch yesterday with my brand new false bottom 10 gal. Igloo. I have been doing tons of research leading up to this and have read Palmers HTB (as well as referred back to it many times) so I thought my process was solid until my first mash calculated just under 15ppg.

Process:
5.5 gal batch

11lbs two row
.75lb crystal 40
.5 lb carapils.
(All milled 1 week prior to mashing)

-Heated strike water to 165.9 to reach mash temp of 154F. Added 1/4 campden tablet per 5 gallons for the chlorine in the Chicago tap water. 1.25L per pound of grain.

Preheated mash tun with a pot of boiling water before adding strike water

Dumped half of the grains to strike water stirred well and added the remaining again stirring really well.

Noticed the temp was more like 152 so I began heating some more water to heat it up. 10-15 min later stirred in the water to get it to 153F.

60 min mash stirring every 20 min or so but ended up adding a bit more hot water at the end to keep it around 151F.

After about 60 min, I vorlaufed until it ran clearish and began slowly lautering. In the meanwhile I heated my sparge water to 168.

Added 3 gal. Sparge water stirred and let rest for 15 min before the vorlauf and lautering again.

Came up up with about 6.25 gal of wort that read a gravity of 1.020, maybe a little below.


Needless to say this was very disappointing. I know I could have added extract but I decided to start from the beginning as I was determined to do all grain.


I ran to the LHBS and grabbed more grains, this time a bit more than the recipe considering my efficiency sucks..

9 lbs pale malt
3lbs marris otter
1.75lbs crystal 40
.5 carapils
(Milled right before)

The only changes I made to the process the second time around (other than minor adjustments to the strike water temp) is I stirred the mash a bit more and fly sparged.

I ended up with an efficiency of 20ppg. Not what I was hoping but useable at least.

Will ph effect efficiency this much?? Being my first all grain I didn't want to worry too much about this.

WHERE DID I GO WRONG???

 

[Whatsgoodmiley]

Looking at Chicago's water report, I don't see anything that would hinder enzymatic activity right off the bat. Maybe someone else will be able to:

http://www.cityofchicago.org/conten...rQltyResultsNRpts/ccReports/CCA_2015_Q1-4.pdf

Are your grains milled finely enough?

 

[IchLiebeBier]

Rusty,
There are several things that could affect the efficiency.

1. Grain milling. Who milled it? If the LHBS, it's "probably" ok. If you did it, you may want to check the grind size.

2. ph. Once I started doing the water additions, my ph got to be pretty stable and my efficiency improved to around 75 - 80% with almost the same setup and process as you. I use the EZ Water spreadsheet with a yearly average of the water report profile (I update it every year). Add the salts until the results numbers are in the green range and the chloride/sulfate ratio is where you want it for the style. I usually "balance" it. I don't make the process into rocket science and it works fine for me.

3. Make sure the conversion is done before you vorlauf. Use the iodine test. 60 minutes was likely enough for your recipe, but it's a simple step to take to be sure.

Good luck.

 

[h22lude]

100% grain crush. Ok maybe 98% grain crush and 2% mash pH. Grain crush is typically the problem people have especially if it was from your LHBS or online. Buy a mill and your problem will be fixed

 

[rustygates]

Thanks for the replies!

The first mash as mentioned above definitely could have been a grain crush issue. It was my first time using the mill at LHBS but the shop owner crushed the grain for the second mash and it looked better (grains fully cracked).

Could I be shocking/denaturing enzymes by adding grains to the 166F water?

Palmer says water to grains but I have seen endless videos of people adding grains to full vol. strike water.

 

[dmtaylor]

Thanks for the replies!
Could I be shocking/denaturing enzymes by adding grains to the 166F water?

No, definitely not.

This is a crush issue, plain and simple. Double mill the grains next time or get your own mill, or borrow a friend's mill. Problem solved.

 

[doug293cz]

What was the temperature of the gravity (hydrometer) sample when you measured it? You should always cool the sample before taking the reading. Trying to measure a hot sample will give you a low SG reading.

If you did measure a cool sample, then it looks like you got very incomplete starch to sugar conversion, which as others have said is most likely due to poor grain crush. Another possibility is dough balls in the mash (clumps of grain that don't get wet can't convert), but with the amount of stirring you did this seems unlikely.

To determine your conversion efficiency, take an SG reading of the first runnings. Then look at the table here to see what the first runnings SG should be. Your conversion efficiency is your SG reading minus 1 divided by the table SG value minus 1. You should be able to get conversion efficiencies of 95% or better, when your process is in order.

Brew on

 

[kh54s10]

Problems like this are almost always due to a poor crush. The other things to look at are that you are getting the proper volumes. If you expect to get 5 gallons and get 4 your OG will be higher, if you get 6 gallons your OG will be lower.

To be sure you are getting an accurate gravity reading you need to have the sample close to the temperature the hydrometer is calibrated for. That is usually 60 or 65 degrees. If you are using a refractometer, make sure you reset it so that it reads 1.000 with water, distilled is best. I have to do this before every session and sometimes again during the process. Wait a few minutes to let the sample cool. Since the sample is only a few drops this happens quickly.

 

[rustygates]

The hydrometer reading was taken when the wort was still around 140-150F I imagine as I had just started heating to boil. It was reading 1.020, (maybe a little lower) on the first mash.

Could it have had this big of drop due to temp?

*edit
I should mention I was shooting for 1.055 OG

 

[JayInAmes]

Did you convert the reading of the hydrometer for temperature?

http://www.brewersfriend.com/hydrometer-temp/

I entered 1.020 at 140, and that converts to 1.035. Preboil, that is a lot closer to your target OG, which will be post boil.

 

[KepowOb]

Did you convert the reading of the hydrometer for temperature?

http://www.brewersfriend.com/hydrometer-temp/

I entered 1.020 at 140, and that converts to 1.035. Preboil, that is a lot closer to your target OG, which will be post boil.

This. OG is the gravity after boil, not before. You are probably fine.

 

[chickypad]

The hydrometer reading was taken when the wort was still around 140-150F I imagine as I had just started heating to boil. It was reading 1.020, (maybe a little lower) on the first mash.

I would definitely check a chilled sample post boil and calculate efficiency with an accurate post boil volume measurement. Besides not correcting for temp you may also be getting a reading that is mostly second runnings unless you're stirring the crap out of it before boil.

 

[Sailingeric]

I had poor efficiency and then I got a Cereal! Killer and that really improved my efficiency.

 

[estricklin]

Most likely you actually got decent efficiency, but unfortunately checking the sample when hot is a mistake many of us have made. Let the sample cool to around 100F, check it, then enter that number into a converter.

As others have stated grain crush is very important, crush til your scared.

pH has no effect on extraction efficiency, only conversion.

 

[rustygates]

Thanks guys! I think we narrowed it down to poor crush mixed with reading a hot sample. I really wish I had fermented the first batch now. Using the Brewers friend calculators, I estimated my OG to be around 1.044 which would have been a nice session ale. The bright side is that my "retry" batch is over shooting my target OG by about 15 points which is hardly a problem in my book. Just glad I built up a starter to handle it.

On a side note, this is a killer forum. There are not many places you can get this kind of help and troubleshooting. Luckily for us, there are many others who appreciate great beer and perhaps even more, the process of making it. I attached the calculators I used to estimate the OG of the first batch that is no longer with us. And now, a moment of silence

http://www.brewersfriend.com/hydrometer-temp/

http://www.brewersfriend.com/dilution-and-boiloff-gravity-calculator/

 

[IchLiebeBier]

pH has no effect on extraction efficiency, only conversion.

I don't believe that is correct. I was able to find many sources that say the proper ph level improves extraction efficiency, among other positives (Braukaiser and Brunwater sites, just to name two).

 

[dwhite60]

Get a refractometer. They're cheap on eBay or Amazon. Only requires a few drops of wort and doesn't matter if it's hot or cold (I put a teaspoon on a ceramic plate and let it cool for a minute though). Can't use it post fermentation with accuracy but pre-fermentation it's priceless. I got tired of trying to cool hydrometer samples quickly.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[rustygates]

Get a refractometer. They're cheap on eBay or Amazon. Only requires a few drops of wort and doesn't matter if it's hot or cold (I put a teaspoon on a ceramic plate and let it cool for a minute though). Can't use it post fermentation with accuracy but pre-fermentation it's priceless. I got tired of trying to cool hydrometer samples quickly.

All the Best,
D. White

Thanks for the response. I actually ordered one a couple days ago. I didn't know about the accuracy issue post fermentation though. Good to know! Cheers!