Poll: Gaging Interest On Brew Equipment Rental Space Concept

[mikeyk12]

Hi guys, I just wanted to make a post to sort of gage interest on a concept that could become a reality if there is interest.

The idea is a 3bbl fermenter that could rented by the hour/day and a location to brew. The location would be fully furnished and would be brew ready. Brewers would just have to provide the ingredients.

I see this mainly as a way for people to brew for their barrel fermentation program, but we would also have a few fermenters that could also be rented for "clean" beer.

Assuming the cost was reasonable, is this something you could see working and being a cool thing for local homebrewers who want to experiment on a larger system?

Thanks for taking the time to read this post and give a little feedback!

 

[madscientist451]

How many home brewers really need to fill a barrel? Is barrel aging beer really the best approach for home brewers anyway? Commercial brewers with barrel rooms have many different barrels going at the same time and then blend the results for a finished product. Commercial operations also use Bourbon Barrels to add the whiskey flavor. Commercial breweries can't legally add spirits to their beer, so they have to use barrels to get that flavor. Homebrewers can add anything they want to, and its easier to fine tune the bourbon flavor by simply adding it at packaging.
And why would a homebrewer want to risk a large amount of beer that could go bad in a barrel? I've considered starting a barrel program for my own homebrewing but have come to the conclusion that adding oak staves to corny kegs is a more reliable way to get wood character. I can have 2 or 3 different levels of oak in different kegs and blend to suit my taste.
I really have no way of consuming 50+ gallons of beer anyway.

 

[mikeyk12]

Can you imagine a brew system size that you would consider worth it to rent? Especially if the place was ready to go and properly cleaned/maintained? I could conceivably have different size systems.

 

[kh54s10]

I don't see any market for homebrewing using a rented 3 barrel fermenter. That is 90 gallons of one style of beer.
You state hour/day rental. Since fermentation takes many days I don't know where hours come into play. If aging in a barrel it might be many MONTHS.
What form of fermenter are you talking about? How many? I can see the cost of setting up costing huge $$
Brew on premises is not a new concept. If successful in attracting a customer to homebrewing, it usually then loses a potential customer. If that is the main focus of a business it is most likely to fail.

 

[Transamguy77]

What is the ultimate goal for you? What are you trying to achieve? I could see something like that working in a major city like New York where space is at a premium and someone could brew 5+ gallons instead of 1 gallon batches in their tiny apartment.

The only way I could see using a system that big is if someone was a small brewery and it was like contract brewing or a homebrew club wanting to do a large batch as a club brew day.

I think I see the concept your going for but it doesn't sound very practical.

 

[mikeyk12]

Basically, an 85,000 square foot building is opening up that will be a sort of foodie centric mall that has a bunch of different culinary ventures. There will be all kinds of food, as well as a craft beer bar. They don't have enough ideas to fill the space yet. I saw another foodie place that is similar to this one, that has a huge commercial kitchen that rents by the hour to caterers and food trucks, so they can prepare food in a certified kitchen. I was thinking the brewing thing could be for upstart brewers who are on their way to their own system. It would basically be a contract brewing location for people in the area. My idea is that people would Brew here and fill barrels to take to their offsite fermentation locations. That way they can pitch bacteria and whatnot, in their own environment and not infect the brewery.

Maybe a 1 barrel system would be more reasonable for this particular market? The location is pretty high population, with huge population areas within an hour in several directions.

 

[mikeyk12]

The brewing equipment would be rented by the hour, while the fermenters would be by the day. I have no idea about exactly what kind of fermenters I would have, but I think that could be answered at a later time maybe?

 

[bob1852]

Licensing/permitting for such a venture (shared production of alcohol) would be a nightmare...

 

[kh54s10]

There may be a market but I just don't see it.

Again, if you are targeting home brewers. You have a limited market. If you successfully interest a person in homebrewing they will most likely get their own equipment for convenience. Thus they will no longer be a customer. A barrel is 30+ gallons. Most homebrewers will not want that much of one type of beer at a time. Homebrewers can use buckets for less than $20. So if you want to rent a fermenter you will be in the $.50 per day range. That is for 5 gallons though.

If you are talking Roto-Molded fermenters you are talking about approximately $125 each. Stainless Steel will run somewhere near $1000 each. To get any appreciable rent on them you will need an awful lot of them. Average 10 days fermentation. I would think $50 rent would be about maximum for the 10 days for most. So to get $2000 a day or about $100k/ year you are going to need at least 40 fermenters. They will also need to be in use almost at all times.

If one barrel size, and they are going to be taken off site, how are you planning on transporting them? A one barrel fermenter is big, and the beer alone in them is going to weigh about 240 pounds.

 

[AF1HomeBrew]

Interesting concept and I am sure it's been tried before. I am sure dealing with the insurance and government would nix this from being profitable or successful.

 

[buckinin]

There is a brewery in Ohio that does Brew on Premise. It's seems to be geared toward people interested in home brewing but wanting to try it before buying equipment. You brew there, ferment there, and bottle there and then bring the bottles home. They do more like 5 gallon batches I think.

Is this what you're going for or is the several bbl size for people looking to try their hand at going large scale the key?

http://thebrewkettle.com/bop/how_it_works.php

 

[kh54s10]

There is a brewery in Ohio that does Brew on Premise. It's seems to be geared toward people interested in home brewing but wanting to try it before buying equipment. You brew there, ferment there, and bottle there and then bring the bottles home. They do more like 5 gallon batches I think.

Is this what you're going for or is the several bbl size for people looking to try their hand at going large scale the key?

http://thebrewkettle.com/bop/how_it_works.php

We had a brew on premises place here in Rhode Island about 8-10 years ago. I think it lasted less than 2 years.

It looks like the one listed does a lot more than just BOP.

 

[AF1HomeBrew]

There is a brewery in Ohio that does Brew on Premise. It's seems to be geared toward people interested in home brewing but wanting to try it before buying equipment. You brew there, ferment there, and bottle there and then bring the bottles home. They do more like 5 gallon batches I think.

Is this what you're going for or is the several bbl size for people looking to try their hand at going large scale the key?

http://thebrewkettle.com/bop/how_it_works.php

AWESOME to see a BREWERY give this a try! Unfortunately, the hobby of home brewing is (at least in my view point in the last 9 yrs) full of Cheap A** people that are ready to take advantage of others that want to help keep the hobby going (using their knowledge & equipment). For the last several years, whether from members of a local brew club or people I've met in the area, I've found 8 out of 10 people that appreciate being able to brew on someone's system without any skin in the game, minus a bucket or carboy to ferment in. I've offered several people in my area (Midwest) to brew & ferment a double/triple batch of beer on my BCS-460 controlled all-grain system(with state of the art equipment), so that then when they leave they at least have a 5 gal. batch that they can ferment themselves(or in one of my controlled fermentation chambers). 30% of the time I get someone that wants to keep brewing with me (let alone at least pay for their share of the ingredients), after realizing that they make amazing beer (& I have managed the ingredients and water profile for them!). Most of the people I have come into contact with (usually thru meeting at local brewerie's or beer tastings) seemed to be enthusiastic about brewing or beer itself until the economics of $ or time come into place. Most of the people are Lazy-A**es. In the last 2-3 yrs I've turned it into a social experiment when I meet a person interested in beer.... After hearing their diatribe about their beer tasting experiences, I ask them if they have brewed their own beer before.... 99% of the time it's 'No", so I have them over to brew something they like (& I pay for their ingredient's, just to see them experience what it takes to brew their favorite brew)... 70% of the people would rather let someone else brew it for them. It's Kind of funny, but shut's them up the next time they want to nix-pick a beer apart. I remind them what it took to brew their favorite brew. I keep reminding myself that at least I can keep brewing what I like any time I want - without these dumb & weak M******F**K**'s. Being one of a few that have worked from home for the last 10 yrs, I have tried to use Homebrewing as a way of networking since I do not work in an office like some of the other folks.... I guess talk is CHEAP!

 

[max384]

I just simply don't see this working. The people who have their own 30+ gallon fermenters will also have their own equipment. I mean, who invests in a fermenter, but nothing else?

I foresee a lot of lost money in your future if you move forward with this endeavor. If you do decide to move forward, please do yourself a favor and pay for a market study before youth really start laying out money.

 

[Dcpcooks]

https://www.chaosbrewclub.net
This is a shared use club in chicago that's been around for a while and has an active membership. It's geared toward a city brewer with limited space for gear in an urban area. I've heard great things about it. The dues reflect access to the facility.

The flip side is a huge production space that allows a brewery to use a shared system to increase capacity without expending their own systems. There is a big unit in Florida and one outside of St Louis that offer this option but they are huge facilities 75,000 to 90,0000 bbl units if I remember correctly. Cigar city and toppling Goliath are expending production in this manner. Basically the brewer comes in brews the beer to his or her specs and then it's complete processed all the way through canning on site.


I'm not sure how your plan fits for a home brewer. 50 gallons of 12% stout is a lot of beer for one or two people. Let's look at the cost. The last barrel we filled at my club was grain $430 cleaning supplies $40, yeast $35, dme for the starter $20, and the barrel $150. So $675 in brewing costs. Then you'd need to bottle the beers or have huge kegs surplus to hold it. At 3bbl your also a tweener. You could only fill 1.5 bourbon barrels. So your better at 2 or 4 barrels for set up size.

There is a guy selling a 1 bbl set up on the site currently for 13k or 16k you would then need to add several additional fermentors. Probably 3-4 at a minimum so you could brew weekly. So your start up cost would be 20k in equipment alone, prior to the the first batch being sold. This doesn't account for permitting, rental space, electric and water or a walk in fridge and glycol. So if we assume 30k start up and $1200 in rent you really need to make $1900 monthly just to cover expenses. My last business loan of 40k was five years at $760 a month at 5.2%.

If you have 4 fermentors and you push production hard you could make 5-6 batches a month, you could double that with bright tanks for conditioning. That leaves you charging $400-500 per session. So if we add that up your looking at $1,000 plus for 52 gallons of beer. Split it 10 ways and your at 100 per person.


I'm not sure how you'd make a profit.

 

[jerbrew]

http://www.divingdogbrew.com/brew-on-premise/

This is a different but very similar concept. I think the idea is a bit more feasible and aimed at people who do it once. Like somebody sky diving once to say they have. So bachelor parties, gifts, maybe people gaging whether they want to introduce themselves to a full blown brewing hobby.

 

[Summers]

We have this in Pittsburgh I am not sure how many ppl do this but this might be another id for you.

http://www.copperkettlepgh.com/home-crzc

 

[Murphys_Law]

http://www.divingdogbrew.com/brew-on-premise/

This is a different but very similar concept. I think the idea is a bit more feasible and aimed at people who do it once. Like somebody sky diving once to say they have. So bachelor parties, gifts, maybe people gaging whether they want to introduce themselves to a full blown brewing hobby.

There is a place here in Colorado that is both a LHBS and Brew-on-site set-up. In fact, its where I got my start. They'll walk you thru the process (for a small fee which includes ingredients, etc) and if you like it he'll gladly sell you equipment and ingredients to brew at home.

I don't think his business model is to really profit from the BoS but to "seed" and grow future home brewers who buy "stuff" from him.

 

[max384]

We have this in Pittsburgh I am not sure how many ppl do this but this might be another id for you.

http://www.copperkettlepgh.com/home-crzc

This seems like a much better idea. It's smaller scale so that it won't scare away new brewers. I mean 3 bbls is 41 cases of beer. No new brewer is going to want to try brewing once and be left with over 40 cases of beer which may or may not taste good. Not many experienced brewers that wouldn't be scared away with that much beer don't already have their own equipment.

Also, with this business model, you can make money off of charging for time using the equipment, as well as the ingredients.

OP, I think this is a much better idea.

 

[TulsaTax]

I believe in Overland Park, Kansas a similar concept exists. It may be called Brew Lab.

 

[kh54s10]

It seems that most of the BOP places do not rely on that as their sole source of income. At an average of $300 for about 50 12 ounce bottles that is $6 per bottle. Or $36 for for a six pack. That will limit your customer base to start with, and as I said before, if you create a homebrewer - you have just lost a customer.

The only way I see this working, as a stand alone, is in the middle of a big city where storage and brewing space is not available.

 

[Crohnnie]

Eh