Pliny the Elder recipe questions

[bdnoona]

Yes, please keep us posted. I'd love it if my next attempt of this is even closer to the original.

 

[mb2696]

Batch 3 is in the fermentor. I increased the flameout and dry hops by about 20% to see if I can reproduce the hop aroma of the real thing. I'll post the results here in a few weeks. Also used fresh hops for most of the hops in the boil. My hop bag was like a bowling ball when I pulled it out of the kettle. My efficiency jumped to about 80% on this batch too, so my OG was a bit higher than expected at 1.073.

have you had a chance to taste yet?

also, the calculated ibu comes in over 200 but the actual says 90-95?

 

[black95tt]

I've brewed the BYO Clone several times. The thing I've noticed with this beer is that the flavor and aroma fades VERY quickly, like in a couple weeks quickly. For those of you that have had Pliney, you can probably attest to this. I've had bottles ranging from 1 week to 4 weeks old. There is a HUGE difference in the aroma and hop flavor profile. The thing I do when brewing this beer is once secondary is done, I keg it and put like 28psi on it for two days so it's ready to go quickly. Then just start pounding.:rockin: After about a month in the keg the flavor dies down pretty badly.

Not sure why they say the IBU's are in the high 90's. My guess is because that is the max you can perceive?

 

[ThatGuyRyan]

I brewed up Jamilz Hop Hammer Pliny Clone and its been in the keg now for three weeks so its till green. But I had to pull the keg last night since I honestly cant drink more that a pint every other day its so strong. Both in alcohol and mainly the HOPS! The smell is out of this world it smells like sticking your head in a 55gallon drum of hops. I never had the real thing since I still have not found it in a store. But I have pliny of other brews that are ready so I am going to let the HH/Pliny sit and hopefully it will smooth out a bit in the next few weeks. I am also having a hard time getting it to carb. I forced it at 25 for 4 days then 14psi for the past two and 1/2 weeks. When I pour it I hardly get 1/8" of head and that’s gone in minutes. Is this normal for this beer or does it take longer to fully carb due to the amount of hops or alcohol? I really made this for my wifes uncle he said I don’t make enough IPA's and he really wanted a hoppy beer so he's going to get a bunch at Christmas!

 

[kal]

I brewed 12 gallons of Pliny the Elder clone from BYO back in late November.

Normally I'd do 10 or so but I knew the hops would soak up a lot so I decided to make 12 gallons. Still only ended up with around 10.5 gallons in the fermeters due to the 21 oz of hops used in the boil (and another 4 in the mash).

I don't think I would have tried this without a HopStopper. The amount of hop sludge was incredible!

Some pictures of the kettle and the hopstopper after I drained:









It's hard to see in the photos but the hop sludge is about 1.5-2" deep in the bottom of the kettle, and about the same piled up on the hopstopper. I have to say the hopstopper is amazing. No problems draining - you just need to make sure to not go too fast once you get down near the end to avoid sucking air in through various channels which would then stop the flow of wort (a problem I had in the past when I drained really fast).

The recipe from BYO scaled up to 12 gallons and my efficiency if anyone's curious:

Pliny the Elder clone (106)
14-C Imperial IPA
Size: 12.0 gal
Efficiency: 92.91%
Attenuation: 85.0%
Calories: 253.86 kcal per 12.0 fl oz
Original Gravity: 1.077 (1.070 - 1.090) (was targeting 1.073)
Color: 8.29 (8.0 - 15.0)
Alcohol: 8.63% (7.5% - 10.0%)
Bitterness: 260.5 (60.0 - 120.0)

Ingredients:
1.0 ea Campden Tablet - added to 20 gallons in HLT
23.29 lb Standard 2-Row (La Quebecoise)
0.55 lb Crystal Malt 40°L
1.67 lb Carapils®/Carafoam®
2.4 lb Corn Sugar
4.08 oz Chinook (11.5%) - added during mash
6.7 oz Warrior (15.4%) - added during boil, boiled 90 min
1.27 oz Chinook (11.5%) - added during boil, boiled 90 min
2.4 oz Simcoe (11.9%) - added during boil, boiled 45 min
2.45 oz Columbus (14.0%) - added during boil, boiled 30 min
1.0 ea Whirlfloc Tablets (Irish moss) - added during boil, boiled 15 min
6.14 oz Centennial (8.0%) - added during boil, boiled 0 min
2.4 oz Simcoe (11.9%) - added during boil, boiled 0 min
26.0 g Fermentis US-05 Safale US-05
26.0 g Fermentis US-05 Safale US-05
7.8 oz Columbus (14.0%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
4.2 oz Centennial (8.0%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
4.2 oz Simcoe (11.9%) - added dry to secondary fermenter

Notes
25.5 lbs of grain.
Added campden tablet day before to 20 gallons Ottawa tap water.
Mash with (25.5 x 1.25)/4 = 8 gallons of strike water.
Single infusion mash @ 151F for 90 minutes. (Should be able to get the FG close to 1.010 - 1.011 with this low mash temp).
Mash out at 168F.
Sparge at 168F.
GU = 74 x 12 = 888. Pre-boil gravity should therefore be 888/14.75 = 1.060 (at 72F)
Collected 14.75 gallons. Measured 1.040/150F which is ~1.058/72F.
Added corn sugar (before boil). SG was 1.042/150F which is ~1.060/72F so right on target.
Boil for 90 minutes.
Got 10.5 gallons at 1.077/68F into fermenters. Lost a lot to hop absorption.
Ferment at around 68F using ~20 g of US-05 per 5.25 gallons.
Dry hop for 2 weeks


I racked it to the secondary a couple of days ago and it's slowly clearing now. I'll be kegging once it's clear in hopefully a week or two.

Kal

 

[black95tt]

^ THAT is an awesome sight. I've had tons of problems with my hop stopper loosing siphon right when it gets to the compression fitting connection. I was never able to get it to siphon all the way down, not once. I've tried different tubes, and compression fittings, neither worked. Are you saying that slowing down the flow will allow it to happen?

 

[skadalajara]

AZ-IPA: If you're still reading this, the guy from Tops Liquors told me Russian River's gonna be available in AZ after the beginning of the year.
I can't wait!

 

[kal]

^ THAT is an awesome sight. I've had tons of problems with my hop stopper loosing siphon right when it gets to the compression fitting connection. I was never able to get it to siphon all the way down, not once. I've tried different tubes, and compression fittings, neither worked. Are you saying that slowing down the flow will allow it to happen?

It did for me! I did 3 other batches before this one with the HopStopper - one of which was a really light lager with only 1 oz of pellet hops. I had the exact same problem: As soon as the level dropped to to outlet valve level, siphon stopped. I think it was happening because my combination of HopStopper/CFC is simply so efficient that you I flow wort through it fast as I want. So fast that once the level gets down you get air channelling into it from the upper surfaces which cause you to lose suction.

So for my pliny clone I siphoned fast until I was a few inches from the top of the kettle output valve and then slowed it right down. The pictures above show the result: I got every last ounce out of the kettle.

Kal

 

[black95tt]

Wow, I can't believe I never thought of that. You wouldn't believe what I've been through trying to get that damn thing to work right. I ended up putting it on the shelf cause I got so frustrated. I'll give it another try using your technique over vacation next week. Thanks!

 

[paradoc]

have you had a chance to taste yet?

also, the calculated ibu comes in over 200 but the actual says 90-95?

Batch 3 is good, but also different. I modified my water profile, use whole rather than pellet hops, did the second dry hop in the keg, and a few other changes. I think it would have been better to make changes more gradually so I can evaluate what each change does. The hop flavor and aroma are stronger, more like the actual Pliny. With the increased hops, it is a different beer than the prior batches, but still quite good. I think I like the hop schedule from my original post. Might not have the same hop aroma as the original Pliny, but a bit more balanced hop and malt flavors. To each his own.

I'm told hop calculations are not accurate above about 100 IBU's. Suffice to say... there is plenty of hops in this beer for even the most hop addicted beer fiend.

 

[Jipper]

Did any one listen to last Sundays session on dry hopping? I was half ass listening at work, and they where talking about pliny, and said that they use hop extracts in the brewery.

They use hop extract for bittering additions at RR, yeah, but not for dry hop. Unless that's changed.

 

[mb2696]

i finally got around to brewing this on sunday

despite the fact that i use whole hops, i ended up with a bunch of sludge that clogged the false bottom/drain tube on my kettle. i guess the 90 min addition just got boiled so long and hard that it dissolved. anyone else have this problem? maybe that's part of the reason RR uses extract for bittering?

 

[Bsquared]

How did you add the corn sugar? if you just dump it in, it might not desolve in to solution fast enough and sink to the bottom of the kettle where it can start to caramelize with the hops making a mess.

I did not have that happen with this batch but I had it happen before, looked like i had hop rock candy at the bottom of my kettle!

 

[paradoc]

despite the fact that i use whole hops, i ended up with a bunch of sludge that clogged the false bottom/drain tube on my kettle. i guess the 90 min addition just got boiled so long and hard that it dissolved. anyone else have this problem? maybe that's part of the reason RR uses extract for bittering?

I've brewed it both ways, with pellet and whole hops. I always use a large paint-strainer bag to contain my hops during the boil. Makes it much easier to remove the hops without clogging my plate chiller.

Having done it both ways... I think I prefer pellet hops for this brew. The batch I did using mostly whole hops I lost close to 2 gallons total between the hop loss in the boil, and the hop loss from dry hopping. Flavor was about the same, maybe a bit better with the pellet hops but YMMV.

Brewing another batch this week. Last batch was VERY popular at my New Years party

 

[mb2696]

How did you add the corn sugar? if you just dump it in, it might not desolve in to solution fast enough and sink to the bottom of the kettle where it can start to caramelize with the hops making a mess.

I did not have that happen with this batch but I had it happen before, looked like i had hop rock candy at the bottom of my kettle!

i did just dump it in, but i think it dissolved fine. cleaning my kettle after the brew, i didn't notice any hard deposits or caramelization.

 

[mb2696]

I've brewed it both ways, with pellet and whole hops. I always use a large paint-strainer bag to contain my hops during the boil. Makes it much easier to remove the hops without clogging my plate chiller.

Having done it both ways... I think I prefer pellet hops for this brew. The batch I did using mostly whole hops I lost close to 2 gallons total between the hop loss in the boil, and the hop loss from dry hopping. Flavor was about the same, maybe a bit better with the pellet hops but YMMV.

Brewing another batch this week. Last batch was VERY popular at my New Years party

yea...i may just have to do that. do you compensate for reduced utilization?

i recently got my kettle false bottom and it's worked fantastically until this batch. i guess its just too much - or maybe my boil was too intense

 

[BierreNoix]

I brewed my second batch a couple of weeks ago. Came in with an OG 1.080
with direct fire recirculating mash. Let set on primary for 2 weeks then let go to 2 weeks on first DH addition.
I decided to natural carb with DME 3 weeks then add 2nd DH addition at dispensing in hopes of preserving hop aroma. It dropped off pretty quick last time. It was still good but not the same as when first tapped up.

Has anyone else had luck with this? Any tips?

Regards

 

[paradoc]

yea...i may just have to do that. do you compensate for reduced utilization?

i recently got my kettle false bottom and it's worked fantastically until this batch. i guess its just too much - or maybe my boil was too intense

Yes, I adjust my hops for utilization and AA content. Brewed another batch last night... for fun, I poured the contents of my hops bag into a kitchen strainer when I was done... it completely filled the strainer. That is a lot of hops! I did notice that the hops all tended to layer, and water didn't flow through it very well. Try the paint strainer bag... it really does work well.

Let set on primary for 2 weeks then let go to 2 weeks on first DH addition. I decided to natural carb with DME 3 weeks then add 2nd DH addition at dispensing in hopes of preserving hop aroma. It dropped off pretty quick last time. It was still good but not the same as when first tapped up.

Has anyone else had luck with this? Any tips?

Pliny has a "warning" on their label that this beer is intended to be consumed "fresh". I too have noted a rapid drop off in hop flavor if you let it condition too long before serving. Still a great beer... just not quite the hop bomb it is when young. I've started adding my second dry hop addition to the keg using a Large Spice Ball. Seems to keep the hop aroma going until the keg is gone, in fact as the beer drops in the keg, the aroma gets even a bit more intense. I ferment until the fermentation is nearly complete, add first dry hop addition to the primary for around 10 days, then rack to the keg with the second dry hops in the ball and let it cold condition for around a week.

I may add some oak chips with the first hop addition on this batch. Really like the oak flavor in Blind Pig IPA from Russian River. I think it will complement the flavors in Pliny very well.

Cheers!

 

[zman]

I am using dry yeast this time around. Think 1.5 Safale 05 is enough or should I do 2 11.5g packets? I consulted Mr Malty but it goes from 1.4 to 2 based on mfr date. I did not think that really mattered with dry yeast?

 

[BierreNoix]

Pliny has a "warning" on their label that this beer is intended to be consumed "fresh". I too have noted a rapid drop off in hop flavor if you let it condition too long before serving. Still a great beer... just not quite the hop bomb it is when young. I've started adding my second dry hop addition to the keg using a Large Spice Ball.
Cheers!

Thanks Pardoc for the link to the spice ball.. I will look for that at local asian imports store.

The First batch I let age for one month in addition to the 2 weeks to carb. It a was still a good beer that didn't last long. I may have to back off the burton salts that work for more mortal IPA's... I will drink this time as soon as it is carbinated.

Salut!

 

[mb2696]

I am using dry yeast this time around. Think 1.5 Safale 05 is enough or should I do 2 11.5g packets? I consulted Mr Malty but it goes from 1.4 to 2 based on mfr date. I did not think that really mattered with dry yeast?

I would say slightly underpitching would be worse than slightly overpitching -- go with 2

 

[mb2696]

I was at 1.016 at 5 days, when I did my first dry hop addition.
I didn't check gravity again until I kegged it after 25 days, it was 1.008

It is so good... I'm brewing my second batch tomorrow

paradoc, do you always start the dry hop before FG? if so, when? after krausen drops and it clears a little or what?

 

[zman]

I would say slightly underpitching would be worse than slightly overpitching -- go with 2

That is what I did. the OG is pretty high so I figured what the hell. It will still be Beer

 

[paradoc]

paradoc, do you always start the dry hop before FG? if so, when? after krausen drops and it clears a little or what?

I wait until the krausen drops back, usually 5-6 days, then do the first dry hop addition. But I don't worry about checking a gravity or the airlock to stop bubbling. I don't have access to the Zymurgy article at the moment... but I think Vinnie mentions dry hopping before reaching final gravity. I'll find the article and post the paragraph about dry hopping when I get a chance.

 

[BrianTheBrewer]

Cant wait to try to brew this one...

 

[mb2696]

I wait until the krausen drops back, usually 5-6 days, then do the first dry hop addition. But I don't worry about checking a gravity or the airlock to stop bubbling. I don't have access to the Zymurgy article at the moment... but I think Vinnie mentions dry hopping before reaching final gravity. I'll find the article and post the paragraph about dry hopping when I get a chance.

Yea that's interesing. I wonder if that's just to be time efficient or if there is some other reason. I emailed Founder's a while back to ask them about the recipe for Red's Rye they told me to do the a similar thing - begin DH 4 days before FG.

 

[cercueil]

I emailed Founder's a while back to ask them about the recipe for Red's Rye they told me to do the a similar thing - begin DH 4 days before FG.

So this is interesting. Sounds like dry hopping in the primary? I've never done that before..Was curious but always waited till after fermentation was done and then racked to secondary for dry hopping. I wonder if you would lose a little bit of amora doing it this way.

 

[mb2696]

So this is interesting. Sounds like dry hopping in the primary? I've never done that before..Was curious but always waited till after fermentation was done and then racked to secondary for dry hopping. I wonder if you would lose a little bit of amora doing it this way.

Yea I'm thinking it's just the fastest way to DH without losing too much aroma (since the majority of bubbling has stopped)

 

[mb2696]

so I finally got to try mine last night - did a side by side tasting with the real thing. i found that the real one had a much sharper bitterness. mine was still very bitter, but it was more of a dull bitter if that makes any sense. also the hop flavor was noticeably more intense in the real thing. as far as aroma, mine smelled different (not bad, just different), but was not really much less intense. despite the shortcomings, i'm VERY pleased. i was just hoping it would be in the ballpark of the real thing. i would say not only is it in the ballpark, it is actually pretty close.

paradoc, i know you had been experimenting with different hopping schedules. did you ever settle on anything different, or are you still on the original schedule?

 

[paradoc]

paradoc, i know you had been experimenting with different hopping schedules. did you ever settle on anything different, or are you still on the original schedule?

Still messing around with hop schedules. Current batch ended up sitting in primary for a couple of weeks because I was out of town. I'm going to rack it tomorrow and start dry hopping. I'm using pellet hops for the dry hopping because it is much easier to deal with. In the article in Zymurgy, Vinnie mentions they pump CO2 through the bottom of the conical fermentor to stir up the hops and help with the dry hopping.