Please Provide an Experienced Recommendation

[BrunDog]

Somehow this thread became a condemnation of automation despite the OP’s request for it.

I will just say that I don’t agree with many of your assessments of automated brewing Kal, and leave it at that. Maybe a unique thread debating these would be of value to some, but we all must agree that there are many ways to make beer, and as long as we individually enjoy our process and the results, that is what matters.

 

[kal]

There's nothing wrong with automation, I simply caution someone into thinking that it'll save them time as there doesn't appear to be any fully automatic setup available for purchase today, so you end up spending lots of time building in automation to save (what I believe is) very little time on the actual brew day. That's my 2 cents.

There are definitely different ways to make great beer (one of the reasons this hobby is fun). I don't want to fan the flames of 'anti-automation' so I won't comment on it any further.

Cheers!

Kal

 

[Silentdrinker]

I don't think that's a fair comparison. As someone else stated in this thread comparing to what large breweries use doesn't always make sense. They have to be automated given the scale and the fact that they'd have to otherwise train dozens to run it. Automation becomes cheaper when the scale gets to a certain size.

You gave an example of your 20+ years experience to make your point that automation is not worth it due to simplicity and reliability. If it’s a system good enough for a large company like that, clearly they don’t feel the same about how you do when designing their setup. That’s all I’m getting at. Plus I don’t see any reason to not compare. Obviously my level of automation isn’t to their caliber, but most of our breweries aren’t to the caliber of most Nano breweries yet we still compare them or try to mimic them.

Sorry, I may have confused the issue. My 100+ hours was to completely automate with automatic valves, automatic hop additions, or whatever else you want to do to 'automate'. It has nothing to do with BCS.

Sure, this can be a valid point if we’re talking insane automation from start to finish with NASA precision. He wants hop additions and auto filling the HLT. Adding an electric ball valve for an auto filler and a couple magnetic push/pull solenoids for hop additions will hardly cost much and definitely wouldn’t add a massive amount of time to implement. The ball valves run like $30-50 and a 5v solenoid can be had for like a dollar shipped from China. I take electronics apart to salvage parts. I used the fill pump from our old dishwasher for my auto fill.

I find that an inherently dangerous thing to do, but that's just me. More below.

It’s all hypothetical to make a point, and people do dumb stupid stuff all the time. I’m sure there are plenty of real life scenarios that make the same point with out fear of danger.

If a system needs to be constantly monitored, it's not properly designed. I'm going to quote myself from my article to give my feedback on this and the last comment:

Seems a bit contradicting saying a system shouldn’t need to be monitors but then it’s dangerous to not monitor it. Regardless, it’s more for piece of mind to know things are happening.

At the end of the day there's certainly more than one way to make beer. If using automation (this is different from BCS) works for you, go for it.

It always come down to this. I understand the BCS isn’t automation, but it’s the solution for automation. I only use the BCS as an example because it’s the closest to a turn key solution for Homebrew automation. Most open source solutions would require more time.

comparing a hobby where a brew day is once every few weeks against a multi-national commercial giant that is brewing 24/7/365 is a stretch. that being said, pid or bcs seems fine to me. both do the job, it just depends on your interests. i have a pid setup and there are times where i say 'man, i wish i could be tracking this on my phone in the other room' but at the end of the day, it isn't like i am annoyed having pids. automation can be a challenge in itself and if that is your bag, go for it! i'm in the kal camp where i don't want brew day to be me pushing a button and coming back 6 hours later to wort in a fermenter. what's the fun in that?

I see no stretch. I made the point above. Most homebrewers strive to have setups or compare their setups to Nano breweries yet we don’t push the quantities they do. My automation is a baby version of theirs similar to how our breweries are babh versions of a commercial brewery. It’s all the same.

It’s tiring hearing people say they went with X because they want to brew and not just hit a button. If the temps change automatically and the hops drop by themselves, you’re still going to be working. I feel automation actually makes the brew process much more enjoyable. It’s not any different to having a brew assistant. It can be hard work and very frustrating sometimes.

I agree there’s nothing wrong with the PID or Kal Clone. I also feel he’s done a great job providing a resource for people and I admire it when people provide open source knowledge. It has nothing to do with that. It always ends with “do what works for you.”

But biased opinions are pushed and truths are stretched to make points. It’s that reason I get my news from The economist or BBC vs CNN or Fox.

Bottom line is I’m not a robotic engineer of 25+ years, but I know for damn sure the setup I made didn’t cost an insane amount or take an insane amount of time to build. And my setup is almost 100% what the OP wants. It actually will be 100% once I finish the tippy dump (got the parts already) and once I get the solenoids for the hop additions. I already have the other parts.

Somehow this thread became a condemnation of automation despite the OP’s request for it

I agree. I’m probably the only person here who actually has what the op wants. It’s funny too because it’s in my daylight basement with limited ceiling height, just like he mentioned haha.

I’ve been maintaining my stance because I have 100% experience of what he wants, even though it was not a turn key system.

Anyway, this horse is dead

 

[applescrap]

This is exactly what I realized when I designed my setup. Why spend 100+ hours designing something that'll save you 30 seconds on brew day, cost more, be proprietary and hard to maintain in the future, and not make better beer? As an electrical/computer engineer I spent 10 years on a plant floor designing setups that got used 20+ hours/day. When you have to maintain them too, you start to realize what works and what doesn't You want things to be simple to use and equally important, you want them to be easy to maintain (both short term and long).

Whatever way you end up going, I wish you luck!

Kal

This seems like very sound advice. How much time and money do you want to spend to automate a simple turn of a valve. Kal surely knows quality and simplicity. Maybe reconsider the zymatic. I know its smaller batches, but man it seems pretty easy to use. I want one, and hope to find one used for cheap. Grainfather, blichmann brew easy, brew boss, the colorado systems, herms, custom, and on and on. Its a lot to consider.

Consider this, denny conn who certainly prefers low maintenance brewing, swears by a cooler but I know he also uses a zymatic. Building your own system is no easy task, see brundogs thread. Its a labor of love, time, and money. At least if you want to build it you have an awesome resource in him and if you want to do the opposite in me. You are doing the best thing imo by considering your options and going about this slowly. Cant wait to see what works for you. As far as I know the only push a button and it works off the shelf option with a reasonable price is the zymatic.

 

[Norselord]

I am putting an ad in for "assistant brewer" on Craigslist: $10/hour. Please supply references and demonstrate brewing experience.

You know, buy the ingredients, give some random dude $50 to brew for me. I can get a 150 brews done that way for the price of a Spike system. Fully automated with some form artificial intelligence.

At ~100 gallons per year, it would take 7.5 years before i spent the same on a fully automated system.
Hell, i might even make a friend or drinking buddy...


Maybe robots won't ever replace certain jobs.
:fro::rockin:

 

[SoCal-Doug]

I'm laughing my butt off now... I gotta toss out a couple things that pop into mind as i read all this...

I'm not sure ANY of us know the original poster's definition of "automation". He might have meant something to keep control of temps. He might have meant "i want something that mills grain, measures and dumps hops, wipes my butt and makes me a ham sammich". Or anything in between.

What Kal designed is nothing new. He took common sense electrical logic blocks and applied them to the application of HOME and very small scale brewing. Kudos to him for applying the same circuitry and concepts we've been using for 20 or 30 years in more different types of applications than carter has liver pills. What he did was simplify it, search out more affordable parts, make it useable and buildable by a typical joe blow, and keep it as basic as possible. Beyond that, even more kudo's for him to release schematics, instructions, and details into the public domain at ZERO cost. I really hope that enough people have bought stuff from him to make it worth his while.

PID's and other types of "process controllers" were around many years before anyone used them for brewing. What happened was a couple offshore companies made some cheaper units that could be used by hobbyist's, tinkerer's and brewers. Would i use a $45 Chinese or Auber type PID for a major manufacturing plant client? Hell no. But they work fine for what we use them for. If our brewing PID smokes itself, we risk losing $30 in grain. If that same PID were to lose its mind in a commercial plant environment, many dollars in product, equipment and time could be lost and people could be injured. Thank God i no longer have to fiddle with propane valves to hold a mash temp.

The other brewing automation boards, boxes and software are nothing new either. We were designing control systems with i/o boards, sensors of all types, valves and solenoids in the 80's and continue to do so today. Kudo's to them also for laying out an affordable board and writing some nifty software and firmware. Again, to better the hobby and go into the public domain [for those that are open source] with your efforts is commendable and awesome.

Trust me. Large scale breweries are not using $45 PID's or hobbyist control boards. You can not even begin to compare them. Most are on PLC's (programmable logic controller, Allen Bradley, Siemens, etc) with much more expensive I/O and sensors and controls than any of us want to consider purchasing. Most will have an operations center that gets fed everything happening to a central area. Just a single temp sensor and sending unit can cost more than an entire Kal panel or other wiz-bang brew controller.

The poor original poster doesn't want BIAB. ACCEPT THAT. He might choose BCS, Kal pre-fab or homebuilt, blichman, MoreBeer, SabCo, or some other IEIEO system. They ALL brew wonderful beer. Jesus, man. And who cares if he chooses RIMS or HERMS. They both work well and we all have our preferences. Maybe he wants to go steam turbine or nuclear fission heating. I guess what i'm saying is don't be defensive about what you use.

End of rant. It's become Ford vs. Chevy (even though we all know Dodge rules). Carry on!

 

[BrunDog]

Actually, the OP was very clear about what he wants in terms of automation.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Yer right. I lost track throughout the thread