Please Provide an Experienced Recommendation

[Silentdrinker]

A basic electric rig with PID's and a copy of beersmith, is about as automated as it gets without getting into crazy costs.

That maybe true if you’re buying commercial parts at high costs. Doing a BCS vs Auber PID panel is a minimal cost difference and the BCS offers far more automation plus the ability to monitor temps and timers and control remotely.

The cost difference depends on the setup. Having no manual button override will save a few bucks. Otherwise some SSRs, contact blocks and contractors would probably be less than $50 shipped. There would be extra wiring involved. And the BCS unit may run a bit more than 3 Auber PIDs, but you end up with essentially 8 PIDs with the ability to automate. It’s nice to have temp probes on the outside of the plate chiller and one in the mash as well as output of the rims plus the boil...etc. It can also run a ferm chamber or keezer.

There are other open source options, but the BCS solution is less of a hassle if you don’t enjoy the process of building and maintaining the controller.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

It all boils down to an individuals choice. Each brewer needs to decide what they want and how much they want to spend for it. There are absolutely many options available. Here's an example of my point... I brewed once with a guy that had a blingy computer controlled system. All was going well. I decided to check the pH and gravity of the mash near the end of the cycle I guess because I was bored (I brought my box of tools, he had no pH meter or refractometer, and only checks SG before pitching). I knew something had gone south so I asked him about it. The pH was like 6.2 and the gravity was nowhere near indicating conversion was complete. His response was "I have no clue, I just copied the file over and hit start, it worked last time". Big automation, but the toys didn't replace basic knowledge. He went on to say something like "for what I paid for all this, it better work".

For work, we have this nasty habit of making tasks and jobs easier, more cost efficient, more repeatable, more accurate and safer, and putting people out of work by replacing their jobs with equipment... All through automation. ROI happens over time and there is always a price to pay.

When I decided to go electric and build a new rig, many images ran through my head. I/O boards, solenoid valves, flow meters, level sensors, touch screens, maybe an SBC and more WPF components than carter has liver pills, Maybe a little 8051 derivative, microcrap or an ARM and a few days with the Kiel compiler, opto's... Oh boy, what could have been. Archive after archive or prior PID and servo code projects laying around. I even pulled out a few Siemens and Allen Bradley PLC's I had laying around and started counting I/O's

Then reality hit. Do I really want to spend the time on this? Brewing is my escape from work. Do I want to create something that 15 other people have already and try to sell it? Naaaah, don't need the headaches. I'll keep the career and hobbies separated. That $48 PID that holds a degree or so will do me just fine and it's already got the RTD input block, filters and ADC designed in, and hopefully its at least slightly proven out

If you want aerospace level repeatability, you need to go much further than I/O's. Humidity and barometric pressure sensors (need that boil off and volume exactly while matched to the timing, right?). High temp flow meters so conversion and sparge happens identically. RTD's at multiple levels in the grain bed. Optical recognition of the grain grind. Augers to move, weigh and dump hops (a spectrometer might be helpful to know the AA for every leaf or pellet). Dissolved oxygen sensors and continuous pH monitoring. Might want to consider turbidity and TDS sensors also. Ok, i'm joking, InBev doesn't even go that far. The point is no matter what you automate, there can always be more and the human has to make some choices and take actions. At some point, our taste buds are the limiting factor of "is this the same beer as before?"

If someone has the bucks and wants to buy the wiz-bang automation, great. There is nothing wrong with that. Or if someone has the skills, time and motivation, awesome go for it.

A brew rig is a tool. You still have to know how to use it and have some knowledge and a little experience under your belt to master it. As a pilot, we all want automated cockpits, fancy navigation equipment, and digital displays, but those toys do absolutely nothing to make you a better aviator.

 

[applescrap]

Would the blichmann breweasy be a possibility? Something like the Brew boss could also work, I think they come in 20 gallon sizes too. I heard that General Electric I think it was, built a fully automated Brew system that looks like a dishwasher or is it about that size anyways. I think it's called the vessie or Bessie

 

[Silentdrinker]

It all boils down to an individuals choice...

Ok? I don’t understand the relevance here. I simply pointed out that there is a nominal cost involved in getting more automation than what a PID offers. It’s definitely not a “crazy” amount.

He’s asking for automation that a PID probably wouldn’t offer him. So the BCS seems to be more fitting for his request.

Simplicity is subjective. Having the ability to start the brew process before I’m home from work or out of bed can be considered simplicity. Having the ability to monitor my temps and timers from my phone while mowing the lawn, and getting an alert once a process is done, can be considered simplicity. Having my temp states programmed in with changes made automatically or with a single input could be considered simplicity. Being able to load the recipe in and have it all set-up can also be considered simplicity.

Then again, spending a few dollars less, and a little less time wiring, on something that offers no more than temp control could be considered simplicity.

It obviously is all about what one person wants and how much time/money they want to invest. Regardless, no one said anything about aerospace level of repeatability. Perhaps that’s where the confusion comes when saying more automation than what a PID offers would add crazy cost.

I built a BCS control panel with automation. I have experience as to the cost, simplicity and level automation and repeatability. But I can also attest the fact that it’s not a perfect system, especially since embedded control concepts has seemingly limited interest in getting updates out and answering questions on their forum. They promise all sorts of features but never actually follow through with it. Plus they always give short timelines for updates or features that may show up a year or more later, if ever at all.

I heard that General Electric I think it was, built a fully automated Brew system that looks like a dishwasher or is it about that size anyways. I think it's called the vessie or Bessie

It’s Whirlpool’s Vessi.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/vessi-beer-fermentor-and-dispenser--4#/

It’s for fermenting and dispensing though.

 

[user 125772]

I am going to PM you SWMBO's personal cellphone# and if you manage to negotiate my way out of those jobs, i will hire you as my personal assistant!

LOL... that prolly aint gonna go your way since I'm the acting domestic chef/gardener/plumber/auto-mechanic/cleaning maid/dog-sitter/general contractor here too !

 

[thekraken]

We certainly have our perspectives, but I feel it does make better beer. Recipes which are executed the same way yield repeatability - the hallmark of automation. Variables get limited to the ones you wish to change, so for recipe tuning, there really is no other way IMO.

But repeatability and constancy does not equal better beer. No one is more repeatably and constantly awful than BMC

 

[BrunDog]

Haha... better beer provided it’s a better recipe!

 

[user 125772]

A basic electric rig with PID's and a copy of beersmith, is about as automated as it gets without getting into crazy costs. In many ways, it can be less work than operating a commercial system. Beyond temp control, its flow control. You can either integrate a few more valves or move around hot dripping tubing.

I totally agree with this. PIDs can trip an alarm telling you the HLT is ready, Beersmith has an alarm on the timers for the mash, and the boil (and hop additions I think).

Something I added recently which I really like are the 3-way valves on the HLT and MT, I no longer have to swap hoses around, just hook them all up at the beginning and turn the valves at the transition points. (beginning of mash, beginning of the sparge, etc.)

I think the best I've ever done for a brew session was 3:45 (I don't count the HLT heat up, so that's dough-in to clean-up complete.

 

[Silentdrinker]

Something I added recently which I really like are the 3-way valves

I can attest to that. I currently use two and will eventually get two more. They’re on Ali express for like $20. They come in L or T configurations.

Are those small pumps on the port of the kettles?

 

[user 125772]

I can attest to that. I currently use two and will eventually get two more. They’re on Ali express for like $20. They come in L or T configurations.

Are those small pumps on the port of the kettles?

Yep, they run on 12VDC , they work like a charm for circulating and moving liquids between the vessels. The only reason I have a Chugger is for whirlpooling.

 

[TheBrewBrotha]

Checkout the Spike Brewing Turnkey Systems. My dream rigs

 

[EODtony]

Luckily I am a chemical engineer by training and water treatment engineer by profession. Pumps, pipes, and automation don't scare me.

However, the time-suck is still in effect.

I really don't think i can afford to spend 400+ hours building and designing a brew system to save 3-4 hours of work twice a month...

Ee

 

[Norselord]

Ee

I want to agree with you, but i am uncertain of your point.

 

[BrunDog]

With all due respect to the posters here... many are not answering the OP's request. He wants a turnkey or nearly turnkey automated system:

"I am looking for a system that will allow me to brew batches in various volumes (5-20 gallons). 5 gallons for one-off recipes, or tests; 20 gallons for established recipes i know i will want year-round.

I am looking for the highest degree of automation. Ideally the steps i would take are to make water chemistry adjustments, put grain into the mash tun, program a hop schedule. I want the system to automatically hit a series of mash temps, fill boil kettle, bring to a boil, automatically make hop additions. I will take it from end of boil to fermentation myself.

The system should be electric, and should NOT be BIAB."

That said, I do not know of such a system (perhaps other than the Hammacher one linked above). These exist, but are not off the shelf, and if they were, would be fairly expensive!

 

[itsnotrequired]

and even that hammacher one isn't totally complete, the brewer still needs to hops, grains and yeast.

 

[Silentdrinker]

With all due respect to the posters here... many are not answering the OP's request. He wants a turnkey or nearly turnkey automated system:

"I am looking for a system that will allow me to brew batches in various volumes (5-20 gallons). 5 gallons for one-off recipes, or tests; 20 gallons for established recipes i know i will want year-round.

I am looking for the highest degree of automation. Ideally the steps i would take are to make water chemistry adjustments, put grain into the mash tun, program a hop schedule. I want the system to automatically hit a series of mash temps, fill boil kettle, bring to a boil, automatically make hop additions. I will take it from end of boil to fermentation myself.

The system should be electric, and should NOT be BIAB."

That said, I do not know of such a system (perhaps other than the Hammacher one linked above). These exist, but are not off the shelf, and if they were, would be fairly expensive!

Unfortunately what he’s wanting is custom. So he’ll have to build it, have it built, have most built then spend a little time to finish it, or settle for something less automated.

If he wants to pay enough, I’ll build one for him since mine is pretty much what he’s describing.

But I really think he should consider BIAB if he’s looking for easier brew days with automation. Something like this:

http://cobrewingsystems.com/nano-brewer-home-electric-brew-system-20-gallon-kettle/

If he’s really wanting to stay away from BIAB then I believe the best option would be to have a BCS panel built by Ebrewsupply then have his pots built.

That’ll get him close to what he’s looking for. He could then spend a minimal amount of time to add an electric ball valve to auto fill his HLT and he can add some small push-pull magnetic solenoids controlled via the timer to drop his hop additions. If he explains what his plans are to Ryan at Ebrew, he can build the panel to accommodate the solenoids and ball valve(s), so he’ll just have to get them and attach them.

These solenoids would work::

https://m.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-DC5V-6V...851864?hash=item1ec8618018:g:IAkAAOSwtnpXkPDp

Then get a couple of those SS 300 micron dry hop filters for corny Kegs. Each one attached to a solenoid, or he can use a trap door if filtering isn’t a concern.

He can also add a couple more electric ball valves to control the water to his plate chiller and another to control his O2 if he wanted.

That’ll get him what he wants.

 

[Norselord]

Unfortunately what he’s wanting is custom. So he’ll have to build it, have it built, have most built then spend a little time to finish it, or settle for something less automated.

If he wants to pay enough, I’ll build one for him since mine is pretty much what he’s describing.

But I really think he should consider BIAB if he’s looking for easier brew days with automation. Something like this:

http://cobrewingsystems.com/nano-brewer-home-electric-brew-system-20-gallon-kettle/

If he’s really wanting to stay away from BIAB then I believe the best option would be to have a BCS panel built by Ebrewsupply then have his pots built.

That’ll get him close to what he’s looking for. He could then spend a minimal amount of time to add an electric ball valve to auto fill his HLT and he can add some small push-pull magnetic solenoids controlled via the timer to drop his hop additions. If he explains what his plans are to Ryan at Ebrew, he can build the panel to accommodate the solenoids and ball valve(s), so he’ll just have to get them and attach them.

These solenoids would work::

https://m.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-DC5V-6V...851864?hash=item1ec8618018:g:IAkAAOSwtnpXkPDp

Then get a couple of those SS 300 micron dry hop filters for corny Kegs. Each one attached to a solenoid, or he can use a trap door if filtering isn’t a concern.

He can also add a couple more electric ball valves to control the water to his plate chiller and another to control his O2 if he wanted.

That’ll get him what he wants.

Please - no BIAB. Its been mentioned about a dozen times in this thread. I want as much automation "as possible."
I think i will end up building some kind of herms system with keggles. I may use an AB1500 PLC or other to set up some programmable features. With some programming and temperature sensors, a LOT of it can be automated.

Everyone here has provided really good input, and i really appreciate it.

 

[Silentdrinker]

Please - no BIAB. Its been mentioned about a dozen times in this thread. I want as much automation "as possible."
I think i will end up building some kind of herms system with keggles. I may use an AB1500 PLC or other to set up some programmable features. With some programming and temperature sensors, a LOT of it can be automated.

Everyone here has provided really good input, and i really appreciate it.

I understand on BIAB. But I think the BCS route would be the most automation and closest to a turnkey solution as you’ll be able to get. It just wouldn’t be the cheapest route. I built mine for far less sourcing most part from China and they’re exactly the same components ebrew uses just not branded with their logo. I ended up getting a few things from him because I couldn’t find a source at the time, but now I can. It took me about a week during vacation to build. Regardless of how you do it, I’ll give you my opinion that you should consider RIMs especially if you’re wanting easier automation for the mash temps.

 

[thekraken]

I understand that you don't want biab and wont suggest it but I am quite curious now as to why you don't want it?

I would suggest RIMS over HERMS as well.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

RIMS vs HERMS... Flip a coin. They both work fine.

Turnkey + affordable + notbiab + highlyautomated = a lot of peoples dream.

What might be a solution is to turnkey the kettles and controller as best as possible, then only build up the plumbing and a little bit of wiring. Instead of designing, fabricating and building an entire system, become an "OEM integrator" and bring together subassemblies to achieve the goal. There must be some pre-fab kettles somewhere that aren't stupid priced. Maybe buy the elements, tubing, pumps, mating connections separately to fit your needs.

 

[Norselord]

I understand that you don't want biab and wont suggest it but I am quite curious now as to why you don't want it?

I would suggest RIMS over HERMS as well.

I don't want BIAB:
1) I may be doing up to 20gallon batches, that's a lot of weight in grain to be pulling out. I plan on putting an electric brew system in my basement, there is very little head room for a pulley system.
2) I don't like the high water:grain ratio when mashing BIAB. It can make it hard to hit pH values.
3) I want to be efficient in my sugar extraction, BIAB is reportedly much less efficient.
4) I want to make a pilot system that i can scale up, if the need arises. I want to work on a small scale version of the equipment used by large brewers. As far as i know, no commercial breweries do BIAB.
5) God told me in a dream that i should not do BIAB. I have faith in this conviction and no argument based in science or reason will shake my faith in my convictions.

Hopefully this will close out the BIAB portion of this thread.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

I'm sure you have thought of this but... Don't forget some ventilation. 20 gallon batches in a basement may feel like a sauna. Especially if you go 3-vessel and/or attempt rotating batches (boiling one batch while mashing another).

One larger or two smaller cheapo range hoods with a flexi vent tube to the great outdoors, would be golden.

Totally agree on lifting out spent grains from a 20 gallon batch. Personally, I would weld up something for the MLT that would allow tipping into a trash bin. At least allow space to tip the thing forward. Even scooping that much spent grain would peg the suck meter.

 

[Norselord]

I'm sure you have thought of this but... Don't forget some ventilation. 20 gallon batches in a basement may feel like a sauna. Especially if you go 3-vessel and/or attempt rotating batches (boiling one batch while mashing another).

One larger or two smaller cheapo range hoods with a flexi vent tube to the great outdoors, would be golden.

Totally agree on lifting out spent grains from a 20 gallon batch. Personally, I would weld up something for the MLT that would allow tipping into a trash bin. At least allow space to tip the thing forward. Even scooping that much spent grain would peg the suck meter.

Yes - hood vent city for sure.
It is a daylight basement, and the part that has an entrance - i can very likely penetrate and put an exhaust fan on.

Great idea about the tipping - i have seen this feature on brewstands.

 

[Dcpcooks]

Blichmann controllers will allow you to control any and all steps in the mash when attached to a pc with their cable. That can automate your hot side short of telling the valves to open or close.

Plus one on the hood, don’t forget make up air.

5 gallon to 20 is a tough one. Mostly due to the limiting size of a mash tun. Either it’s small enough to brew 5 gallons then it’s too small to brew a high gravity 20 gallon batch.

How about a pico brew for the test batches and a nice electric 20 gallon set up?

I’m running a 30 g mash and bk and a 20 g HLT. I can easily go between 10, 15 and 20 gallon batches.

If I had to do it again I’d size my system for 10 -15 gallon batches.

 

[Silentdrinker]

Blichmann controllers will allow you to control any and all steps in the mash when attached to a pc with their cable. That can automate your hot side short of telling the valves to open or close.

Plus one on the hood, don’t forget make up air.

5 gallon to 20 is a tough one. Mostly due to the limiting size of a mash tun. Either it’s small enough to brew 5 gallons then it’s too small to brew a high gravity 20 gallon batch.

How about a pico brew for the test batches and a nice electric 20 gallon set up?

I’m running a 30 g mash and bk and a 20 g HLT. I can easily go between 10, 15 and 20 gallon batches.

If I had to do it again I’d size my system for 10 -15 gallon batches.

I can mash 5 gal with my 20 gal blichmann tun. I made my own temp probes. So in addition to the prob at the exit of the RIMs, I made a portable one that is really long, about 12” or 16” long. I use it inside the tun. I’ll stir with it too but it’s main purpose is to check all around the mash bed for consistency.

Plus the RIMs exit probe controls the mash temp almost always. Sometimes I’ll change it over to the portable one if needed. So since it’s not controlled by a fixed temp probe in the tun, the height of a 5 gal vs 20 gal mash doesn’t make too much difference as long as it can set the bed to filter.

My issue is I use the “ultimate sparge arm.” I’m not a big fan of it for my setup. It doesn’t adjust low enough so the return could be several inches above the bed. I’ll eventually make my own.

 

[BeardedBrews]

5) God told me in a dream that i should not do BIAB. I have faith in this conviction and no argument based in science or reason will shake my faith in my convictions.

Your unshakable faith is awesome. Best reason ever!

Great idea about the tipping - i have seen this feature on brewstands.

Having used a keggle for a while I will say that a straight-walled pot is a better option. You will appreciate the ease of cleaning and lighter weight for moving.

The tippy-dump is a great design concept, I've seen people construct a similar system on their single tier systems as well. I would spend as much time planning how you're going to clean as you do planning the brew day. Personally I always feel like I'm cleaning more than I'm brewing.

 

[kal]

I still want to brew. I just need it to be less of a time-suck; or at the very least have the pauses between activities be highly predictable so that i can schedule other tasks.

Norselord, I was the same boat when I designed my brewing setup back in 2008 (the one I documented on TheElectricBrewery.com). I had two young kids, always busy, but I still wanted to brew. I get asked all the time why I didn't automate things more so here's a bit of a canned response from my FAQ:

Why didn't you add more automation?

At the end of the day, we do not see any added benefit.

Semi or complete automation is actually something we never wanted for our Electric Brewery. Some people have asked if it's because we didn't know how to do it or because we didn't want to spend the extra money, but neither is the case. We wanted to keep things 'simple' with what can best be described as manual dials and controls. We still want to feel like we're doing something on brew day. It's a hobby and we want to be part of it. Having a computer adjust some or all of the controls for us just wouldn't be the same.

We do use automation however: The PIDs we use are automated in that the brewer dials in the temperature and it is automatically maintained. That sort of automation makes sense to us. We let some components maintain certain control aspects of the system where it would be difficult for a human to do it, but for actually controlling the process steps, we want to be pressing the buttons and turning the valves ourselves.

But most importantly, we also feel that the time required to program the automated steps at the start of the brew day could or would likely take just as long as 'manually' changing certain settings when needed. For example, with today's highly modified malts, most times home brewers (including ourselves) are mostly brewing with single infusion mashes (a single mash temperature is used) so no special process steps are needed. On our setup, we simply set the mash temp and then an hour or two later when the mash is done we press the "up" button a few times to go to mash-out temperature. An automated system could automatically do this after the one or two hour period but what exactly is that saving?

Every other operation in a brewery requires disconnecting/re-connecting hoses so we have to go into our brewery for a few minutes regardless. Even this could be automated with valves and controllers but in our opinion that would be a lot of design/implementation/testing (plus added costs) to save only 5-10 minutes of work on brew day. It just doesn't make any sense to us and results in a more complex setup, which means it's just more things that may cause problems or break.

For more information see our 'Control panel with discrete PIDs vs. computer/automation' thread.

After a lot of research the setup I ended up designing and still use now almost 10 years later doesn't include any automation, at least not automation in the way I think you mean. I do lots of complex step mashes but hit that temp "up" button myself instead of trying to automate it. Timing isn't critical either which is important to understand.

The biggest time sucks when it comes to brewing is having a poor process that makes you run around and do things that you shouldn't have to so I made sure to design around that so that my actual brew day tasks are pretty minimal until it's time to clean. (More info in my Brew Day Step by Step).

Which brings me to the next point: Cleaning. That's the biggest time suck, and it's not something that's easy to automate but it can certainly be made simpler which is what I did (most kettles not disconnected, HERMS coil automatically cleaned during sparging, etc).

Today I'll often brew during a work day and it isn't until after the kids are in bed and the boil's started that I spend any amount of time in the brewery, and that's mostly because I'm cleaning. Before that it's down in the brewery for 30 seconds every once and a while to flip a switch.

Lots of good points already mentioned here but I think SoCal-Doug really hit the nail on the head with this comment:

As a 25 year robotics and automation engineer, i'll say this... Yes, there is probably an automation solution to just about everything if you have the time, space and money to dedicate. But, the more you automate, the more failure points and complexity you add. You can also cause process limitations by over automating.

This is exactly what I realized when I designed my setup. Why spend 100+ hours designing something that'll save you 30 seconds on brew day, cost more, be proprietary and hard to maintain in the future, and not make better beer? As an electrical/computer engineer I spent 10 years on a plant floor designing setups that got used 20+ hours/day. When you have to maintain them too, you start to realize what works and what doesn't You want things to be simple to use and equally important, you want them to be easy to maintain (both short term and long).

Whatever way you end up going, I wish you luck!

Kal

 

[Silentdrinker]

This is exactly what I realized when I designed my setup. Why spend 100+ hours designing something that'll save you 30 seconds on brew day, cost more, be proprietary and hard to maintain in the future, and not make better beer? As an electrical/computer engineer I spent 10 years on a plant floor designing setups that got used 20+ hours/day. When you have to maintain them too, you start to realize what works and what doesn't You want things to be simple to use and equally important, you want them to be easy to maintain (both short term and long).

Whatever way you end up going, I wish you luck!

Kal

I understand you’ve build an empire around your panel and have a faithful crew of Kal Clone missionaries, but this logic doesn’t hold in my mind. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with your panel. It’s great for what it is, but your views are far too biased.

Budweiser and other mecca breweries have automated systems. They’re controlled via a control room. I imagine they get ran 20+ hours a day too. So obviously they’re saving time with automation since time is money.

A PID panel and a BCS panel are hardly different in terms of design, components or cost. Saying 100+ hours more designing a BCS vs PID panel is exaggerating. Saying it’ll cost a lot more is inaccurate too. How much did your total panel cost you from start to finish? If I were to source the parts via your website and compare the cost to what I paid to build mine, I wouldn’t be surprised if I spent less. My box isn’t as pretty with the black heat sink and laser cut panel, but that saved me money. I admit I did spend time sourcing my parts and it took longer than norm but keeping costs down was my priority. It took me longer to acquire the parts than it did to build the panel.

A BCS panel can operate 100% identical to a PID panel. So saying the PID is more simple is far fetched. The BCS can be as simple or complex as you want.

Operating a PID panel may be easier for one to wrap their head around, so there may be a slight less learning curve involved. That’s where I feel majority of the “PID is more simple” mindset comes from.

Automating processes and having remote access allows you to save a lot of time if and when needed. Start the strike water before you get off work so you can mash in once you get in the door; that saves you an hour right there.

Loading your recipe settings via a file saves more than 30 seconds.

Have the ability to monitor everything while not in the room can save a lot of time too. For example, you’re giving your 1 year old a bath. You’re not getting up to make a temp change manually until you’re done; You got side tracked while mowing the lawn and 20min goes by before you realize it; You had to run to the store to grab the wife some tampons; You have to make a run to pick up Chinese food; Your kid needs to be bailed out of jail; You dropped your vile of yeast or broke your hydrometer and have to run to the LHBS...etc. Temp changes will have to wait if it’s not automated or accessing remotely.

You may spend a little more for the BCS vs 3 PIDs, but you get more PIDs in a smaller package. Plus the panel can moonlight as a ferm chamber controller and benefit from the automation and remote monitoring/access.

 

[kal]

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with your panel, but your views are far too biased.

My views are indeed biased to how I want to brew. I can only present my logic for choosing what I did. It's up to everyone to do their own research and decide for themselves what's best for them. That's why I wrote my Control panel with discrete PIDs vs. computer/automation article, to let people understand what I chose what I did, to let them decide for themselves what pros and cons work for them.

Budweiser and the Mecca breweries have automated systems. They’re controlled via a control room. So obviously they’re saving time with automation since time is money.

I don't think that's a fair comparison. As someone else stated in this thread comparing to what large breweries use doesn't always make sense. They have to be automated given the scale and the fact that they'd have to otherwise train dozens to run it. Automation becomes cheaper when the scale gets to a certain size.

A PID panel and a BCS panel are hardly different in terms of design, components or cost. Saying 100+ hours more designing a BCS vs PID panel is exaggerating.

Sorry, I may have confused the issue. My 100+ hours was to completely automate with automatic valves, automatic hop additions, or whatever else you want to do to truly 'automate'. It has nothing to do with BCS. BCS can automate some things like step mashes, but it can't automate turning valves, adding hops, and so forth. Lots of equipment (and programming) is required for that. That's the value I (and others) question as being an actual time savings.

A BCS panel can operate 100% identical to a PID panel. So saying the PID is more simple is far fetched. The BCS can be as simple or complex as you want.

Agreed, in operation. I mention this is in my Control panel with discrete PIDs vs. computer/automation article. But BCS, or any other 'computer' based setup is going to be more complex for most folks. Because of the flexibility, computers based setups have a greater learning curve and you need to know a bit more about low voltage electronics and programming/coding if you want to fully harness the power of what they can do. None of these was a factor for me as an Electrical Engineer (I'm comfortable with this stuff), but the same may not be true for others so it should be taken into consideration when designing your setup.

Automating processes and having remote access allows you to save a lot of time if and when needed. Start the strike water before you get off work so you can mash in once you get in the door; that saves you an hour right there.

I find that an inherently dangerous thing to do, but that's just me. More below.

Have the ability to monitor everything while not in the room can save a lot of time too.

If a system needs to be constantly monitored, it's not properly designed. I'm going to quote myself from my article to give my feedback on this and the last comment:

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Remote control or monitoring

"One feature that some of the computer based solutions are known for is that you can view your controls from anywhere using a web browser. Maybe it's just me, but to this day I still don't understand why I'd want to do that on a properly designed and implemented system. I know how my system behaves so I have no need to monitor it. I have timers with alarms to let me know when something needs to be done. That said, most of the steps in the hot side of the brewery (the wort creation process) are not timing critical. For example, because of the way the enzymes are converted as we mash, a brewer always moves from lower to higher temperatures. Temperatures need to be held for a minimum amount of time for enzymes to convert. There is no maximum time. If enzymes are properly converted after 2 hours but you did 3, it won't make a difference (good or bad). Up until the boil, timing is not overly critical in any of the steps. When an alarm goes off, you usually don't need to be on top of it immediately. For everything prior to the boil I'm usually not in the room and will often let steps run long. Boiling is the exception as I want to add hops at the right times (more or less). Even here, missing a hop addition by a few minutes will not result in a difference that is noticeable. By the time boiling is on, I'm in the room for good as I'm first stirring and watching for boil overs, then cleaning up the mash tun, cleaning fermenters, etc. All the things that require human intervention.

If a system needs to be monitored because there's a fear that the system isn't going to run right then it probably isn't designed right to begin with. Implementing controls as a web server over port 80 like this makes perfect sense of course (you can basically get this feature for 'free' with any PC based setup). I just think this is one of those 'cool' features that is neat the first time you see it but adds little value at the end of the day.

Some brewers also like to be able to remotely control their brewery. This is something I was never interested in as I feel it's dangerous to remotely control something as powerful as a brewing setup. You might turn a pump on remotely but not realize that (a) it isn’t primed properly and you’re killing it, or (b) you didn’t hook the hoses up right and near boiling water is now splashing all over the room (what if someone else was walking by?), and so forth. I have friends “pocket dial” me on their smartphones all the time because they forget to lock it. Could you imagine mistakenly turning on your brewing setup heating elements from across the country via smartphone and not realizing it until the fire department calls you? Brewing setups are inherently powerful and dangerous. I think there’s something to be said about always being in front of them to press buttons, change settings, and so forth. Usually when I want to change something on the control panel, I have a quick hose swap or valve adjustment to do as well, so being able to make a change to the control panel remotely doesn’t help me as I need to be the room anyway."

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At the end of the day there's certainly more than one way to make beer. If using automation (this is different from BCS) works for you, go for it.

Cheers,

Kal

 

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comparing a hobby where a brew day is once every few weeks against a multi-national commercial giant that is brewing 24/7/365 is a stretch. that being said, pid or bcs seems fine to me. both do the job, it just depends on your interests. i have a pid setup and there are times where i say 'man, i wish i could be tracking this on my phone in the other room' but at the end of the day, it isn't like i am annoyed having pids. automation can be a challenge in itself and if that is your bag, go for it! i'm in the kal camp where i don't want brew day to be me pushing a button and coming back 6 hours later to wort in a fermenter. what's the fun in that?