Please Help w/ Recipe

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tarcrarc

Air Garcia
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I am attempting to put together a recipe for an "October-fest(ish)" style brew. Don't care about the style guidelines (for this one). The overarching goal is to create a very malty version.. Hit a concern when I read Denny Conn say Denny's Fav would be off for such a beer due to the lack of crispness this style of yeast provides. Something along those lines--so with that said I am concerned this could not be that great. I am hoping to post my recipe and hear what thoughts are out there by some seasoned brewers. Plan to mash around 155-156.

Here is the recipe--any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
upload_2018-8-25_16-57-12.png
 
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IMO, drop:

Oats
Carapils
Rice Hulls
Chocolate
Melanoidin

Increase:
Munich

Add:
Caramunich 2

I use lager yeast, so I'm not qualified to get into the "use an ale yeast for a lager" discussion.

About 2% acidulated malt might get you in crisp territory, but crisp and sweet tend to work against each other.

Mashing at 155 sounds a little extreme, unless you want very sweet and malty. 152 is where I imagine you want to be. I go for a drier beer and stay around 149, but that's me.

Hops looks about right (IBU-wise).

My Marzens have Vienna and Munich as the base. Caramunich 2 for color and flavor (add a little Carafa 2 if you care for darker color - you did say guidelines mean zero).

Best of luck!
 
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I second what brewing_clown wrote. Drop everything except for the Munich 1 and Maris Otter.

My (M)Oktoberfest uses:

5.5# Munich 1
5.5# Maris Otter.
1# Crystal 45

I then use Wyeast 1007 German Ale. I know it's not a lager but I don't have the space to lager something for months. It works for me and it's a great beer.
 
I'm going to take it in a different direction...

1. I'd keep the Munich and Maris Otter. Both have a nice mild, but detectable malt flavor.
2. The oats sound interesting, I assume you're adding them for the mouthfeel effect.
3. The Carpils seems a bit optional. Maybe you do this for head retention and it works for you.
4. I like the Melanoiden malt. It has a very strong, notable malt flavor. I think having it in there will add some complexity, but keeping it low like you have it is a good idea.
5. Rice hulls don't seem needed for this small amount of oats (assuming that's why you added them).
6. Chocolate malt seems to be stretching the malt flavor band too broadly. I'd skip it.
7. I've never used Denny's Favorite, but Wyeast description says big mouthfeel and malt flavors, so I'd go for it.
8. With the nice line-up of malt flavors, some of them more subtle, I'd go for a lower mash temperature around 150F, and put your yeast to the test for the mouthfeel. You've got the oats backing that up, too.
9. I'd go with a cleaner hop to give a little sharpness, but definitely stay in the background of your malt. Hallertau I find works well for that. Keeping the IBU in the 15-20 range will make sure you don't have battles between hops and all the malts you've got going on.
 
Marris Otter is very high modified malt and enzymes need to be added to make ale and lager with it. Marris Otter was originally intended to make whiskey with. The malt contains Alpha, saccharification will occur, but conversion won't because Beta is wiped out. The complex sugar required in ale and lager, maltose and maltotriose, will not form. Enzymes are manufactured to make up for deficiencies in malt.
A spec sheet comes with each bag of malt and it is used to determine if the malt is good to make ale and lager with or if it is more suitable for making whiskey with. Extract efficiency, gravity per pound, pH, color, modification level, percentage of protein are a few things listed on a spec sheet.
When a recipe recommends high modified malt, single infusion, no Beta rest, no secondary fermentation, and priming the beer with sugar or injecting the beer with CO2 for carbonation, the beer will be similar to Prohibition style beer.

Check out the recipes on Weyermann Malt website.
Weyermann Pils dark floor malt and some sauer malz is all that's needed in Oktoberfest, along with step mashing. Decoction method would be better because when mash is boiled a type of heat resistant, complex starch called amylo-pectin enters into solution. During dextrinization Alpha releases A and B limit dextrin from the starch which are tasteless, nonfermenting types of sugar responsible for body and mouthfeel. The decoction method produces clean, chemical, sugar and nutrient balanced wort less likely to develop the off flavors associated with single infusion brewed beer.
I use Weyermann dark and light floor malt for making Ale, Lager and Pils with the tri-decoction brewing method. The malt is slightly under modified and low in protein. Under modified malt is rich in enzyme content and low protein means it is rich in sugar.
 
I'm going to take it in a different direction...

1. I'd keep the Munich and Maris Otter. Both have a nice mild, but detectable malt flavor.
2. The oats sound interesting, I assume you're adding them for the mouthfeel effect.
3. The Carpils seems a bit optional. Maybe you do this for head retention and it works for you.
4. I like the Melanoiden malt. It has a very strong, notable malt flavor. I think having it in there will add some complexity, but keeping it low like you have it is a good idea.
5. Rice hulls don't seem needed for this small amount of oats (assuming that's why you added them).
6. Chocolate malt seems to be stretching the malt flavor band too broadly. I'd skip it.
7. I've never used Denny's Favorite, but Wyeast description says big mouthfeel and malt flavors, so I'd go for it.
8. With the nice line-up of malt flavors, some of them more subtle, I'd go for a lower mash temperature around 150F, and put your yeast to the test for the mouthfeel. You've got the oats backing that up, too.
9. I'd go with a cleaner hop to give a little sharpness, but definitely stay in the background of your malt. Hallertau I find works well for that. Keeping the IBU in the 15-20 range will make sure you don't have battles between hops and all the malts you've got going on.

Hey Micraftbeer-appreciate the way you broke it down per ingredient---very helpful. That was what I was looking for. Gordon Strong says have an end goal in mind and then do everything you can to make that happen in your recipe. That is what I am doing here.

A couple follow-up questions if I may:
1. In my recent brews I have mashed around 150 and keep fermenting lower than I want. Used to have the opposite problem! Regardless, I want to keep some residual sweetness. Still think I should aim for 150? No matter how much I read on it I'm still confused on how beer can be dry/dryer yet sweet.
2. My biggest weakness as a brewer is hop related. Don't know the flavors/aroma/etc. I have a big bag of Magnum in the freezer...should I just go with that?

Thanks again!
 
My goodness man . You sound like an old chemistry teacher from high school lol. Very informative . There is so much to brewing . I am glad I found this site as it is full of knowledge and advise .

Ok so the post from hopalong is a bot?
 
A couple follow-up questions if I may:
1. In my recent brews I have mashed around 150 and keep fermenting lower than I want. Used to have the opposite problem! Regardless, I want to keep some residual sweetness. Still think I should aim for 150? No matter how much I read on it I'm still confused on how beer can be dry/dryer yet sweet.
2. My biggest weakness as a brewer is hop related. Don't know the flavors/aroma/etc. I have a big bag of Magnum in the freezer...should I just go with that?

1. My thought of being "in the middle" of the sacch. rest range was twofold: 1) Going at the low end seems to work with hoppy beers in my experience, not malty ones. 2) The high end gives you more mouthfeel, but again I think the malts you have could get muddled and you wouldn't be able to detect the subtlety's as much. This works with stout/porter/brown ales, but I'm not sure it would work with this recipe. By all means you could try, though.
2. Experience with hops I've found is 90% personal experience/taste. I'll reference the flavor profiles if I'm looking for something different than I've had before or if I want to try something new. But once I've used it, I mentally know how it behaves for me and where I can use it again. I'm sure everyone has a different palate. Magnum can provide a "clean" bitterness, but in my experience it works better with more hop forward styles. Hallertau also provides a clean bitterness, but I find it does a good job of staying in the background.
 
The grain deparment looked okay...except for the chocolate malt.. It’s alright to experiment!
Me personally, I’d stick with noble hops and a lager strain of some kind.
I’ve seen Denny’s Fav used in bourbon oak porters and the like...not so much a yeast i’d pick for a crisp malty lager. I’m makin an oktoberfest in a few weeks and got a purepitch pack of wlp820 oktoberfest maerzen in the fridge. I’m a bit of a traditionalist tho, so brew what you want and let us know how it turns out! :rock:
 
IMO it's a little late to use a lager yeast if you're wanting an Oktoberfest beer for late September / early October. I would try a Imperial's Stefan which is a Kolsch yeast that imparts a lot of the same character as German lager yeasts if you keep it around 63°F. It also drops crystal clear after a month in the keg.

Personally I would go with a combination of Munich, Vienna, and Pilsner malt with a small touch of caramunich. If you skip the decoction 1/4 lb of melanoidin malt can help replicate similar flavors and aromas. I would only use acid malt to impact your mash pH.

153°F is probably a good target for single infusion. In my opinion an Oktoberfest should have some sweetness and body without going overboard in either aspect.
 
Also seriously consider a different hop choice. Something Noble or an American hybrid (Liberty, Mt. Hood, Sterling, Crystal, etc.) are all good choices for brewing to style.

I enjoy a small dose (7-14g) of hops towards the end of the boil to provide an extra, subtle layer of aroma and flavor.
 
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