Please help me tweak a kit

[pig140]

I need a little help personalizing a mini mash kit that I got. It's an English Pale Ale kit made up of Maris otter LME and light DME. The specialty grains are caramel 60L and the hops are Kent Golding and Fuggle. I have on hand some nugget hops and plenty extra caramel 60L, but I don't mind ordering whatever else online.

I'd like it to finish as more of a solid english bitter than just an EPA. I want some biscuit/breadiness to come out. I'm thinking like Cains Finest or Bluebird Bitter. Biscuit malt maybe? Challenger hops?

Any suggestions?

Side note... In my town we have a syrup mill that's been making fresh ribbon cane syrup for over 100 years. Thought it would be cool to add that in somewhere. I know some people don't like it, but I was raised on it and I love the stuff... maybe save that for another recipe...Lol

 

[badlee]

Go with the syrup at 10% of fermentables. That is a very English thing to do.
I find that even in small beers( 3%) it helps the other ingredients to shine.
You could also dry hop or flame out hop with something like Northdown, a beauty of a hop for stouts and bitters.

 

[pig140]

Thanks! I was hoping to hear something like that! What about biscuit malt? Do I need to change or add anything as far as hops? I want it keep it from being an ESB but I'd like it a little more lively than a Bass Ale... if any of this makes sense.

 

[mmb]

Can you define what you believe the difference to be between English Pale Ale and Bitter? Are you thinking OG, ABV%, or something else?

The reason I ask is because Bitter and Pale ale are two names for the same style category of beer, an ale that was not a mild, stout, or porter. Pale Ale was what the brewery called it to differentiate between beers those beers. Bitter is what the customer ordered at the pub.

 

[unionrdr]

Any biscuity malt would be cool. But I never use more than 1/2lb of crystal malts in the mash. Use roasted malts &/or other "color" malts to adjust the color of your beer. It can take very little of them for that. I liked nugget in the first IPA I did. But English?...idk...

 

[pig140]

I guess bitter isn't the right word. I know they're all English pales, but it just seems beers like Bluebird Bitter and Cains Finest don't fit in the same category as Bass Ale or Fullers Pride Nothing against Bass and Fullers, I like both.

I guess you could say they're just on different ends of the spectrum in the same category and I want THAT end. Lol

 

[mmb]

So you want an Ordinary bitter in the 3.5%-4% range instead of something in the 5%-6% range. That's understandable, two of my favorite styles are Mild and Ordinary Bitter.

How much LME and DME are in the kit? You might just leave out the DME to lower the gravity and if you want bluebird bitter, they use all challenger hops. The biscuit malt flavor comes from the Maris Otter malt they use. Bluebird bitter is Maris Otter malt, a bit of a medium crystal, and challenger hops with a light ester english yeast.

 

[pig140]

ABV at 4-4.5 would be ideal. Here's the link to the kit recipe:

https://store-y7swsih.mybigcommerce.com/content/1006 2013 English Pale Ale Recipe.pdf

A nice copper color, good bready malt, more hops than Bass but not an ESB. And I don't mind ordering extra ingredients. Challenger hops added to the list already. A mix of challenger and one of the other two hops would be good to help personalize.

 

[mmb]

Use Challenger as a 1:1 sub for the Fuggles in that recipe. I'd sub the fuggles for the Goldings in that recipe too, not sure why one would waste Goldings in a 60 minute bittering charge and use Fuggles for flavor/aroma at the end of the boil.

I'd also replace the DME with more Maris Otter LME.

 

[pig140]

Thanks! That's the kind of help I'm after!

 

[unionrdr]

Here's a shot of the final product of the Morebeer ESB E/SG kit;

Bittered with Northern Brewer & EKG at 10 & 5 minutes, respectively for that great flavor & balance. The beer was very clear, but it was hot that afternoon & the glass fogged a little.

 

[pig140]

Nice color on that ESB!

So more like this...

5.8 lb Maris Otter LME
0.5 lb Caramel 60L

1 oz Challenger
0.5 oz Challenger
1 oz Goldings

Nottingham yeast

If I wanted to add in a little of the ribbon cane to add a little local "touch" (still debating that), where and when...? Would that ferment out and add flavor? Or leave residual sweetness - which I don't want...

 

[unionrdr]

Here's the recipe list for the ESB;
7lbs ultra light malt extract
8oz Crystal 40L
8oz Honey malt
4oz Special roast
1oz Northern Brewer hops @ 60 minutes
1oz EKG @ 10 minutes
1oz EKG @ 5 minutes
I used half the extract in a 3.5 gallon boil to do hop additions. The remainder at flame out. 1/2 Whirlfloc tablet @ 5 minutes. Rehydrated S-04 pitched at 71.6F & allowed to cool a bit. Fermented out & cleared in 10 days flat!

 

[pig140]

Nice! I thought about honey malt, and I thought about toasting some crystal 60L but I don't want it to be too nutty. I'm a beer brewing noob tho so....

 

[unionrdr]

Just follow the recipe & it'll be great. I really like this one. A bit of crispness when fresh & cool.

 

[mmb]

Nice color on that ESB!

So more like this...

5.8 lb Maris Otter LME
0.5 lb Caramel 60L

1 oz Challenger
0.5 oz Challenger
1 oz Goldings

Nottingham yeast

If I wanted to add in a little of the ribbon cane to add a little local "touch" (still debating that), where and when...? Would that ferment out and add flavor? Or leave residual sweetness - which I don't want...

Add it as you would the LME. It's going to ferment out and it will leave the burnt, dark flavors like molasses or dark candy sugar.

 

[pig140]

Can you define what you believe the difference to be between English Pale Ale and Bitter? Are you thinking OG, ABV%, or something else?

The reason I ask is because Bitter and Pale ale are two names for the same style category of beer, an ale that was not a mild, stout, or porter. Pale Ale was what the brewery called it to differentiate between beers those beers. Bitter is what the customer ordered at the pub.

After doing a little more research, I think I can answer this question a little better. I'm after a premium/special/best bitter that listed as 8B in all the "guidelines". ABV around 4.0 - 4.2.

I'm thinking of keeping the light DME and adding biscuit malt, then doing the hop schedule as you said. Probably end up leaving out the ribbon cane, worried about the boil bringing off flavors out of it. After doing gallons and gallons of mead, it seems better to just add it to the primary without boiling. I just really want to avoid any nut brown flavors.

We have really soft water here, wondering if I should add some gypsum...?

 

[unionrdr]

Soft water seems to be good for most ales, but something to bring out the hops would be good.

 

[pig140]

How does this look...?

 

[mmb]

Maris otter isn't converted and needs to be mashed. All you'll steep from it is grain dust and starch.

Or, hold it at 154F for 60 minutes with the other steeping grain and you'll have done your first mini-mash.

 

[pig140]

So, the other two can be steeped, but the maris otter should be mashed and not steeped? If I do it as a mini-mash, how will that change my fermentables?

 

[unionrdr]

It depends on mash temp lower is more fermentable. higher is less. But I mash the base grains like MO with the crystal etc together.

 

[pig140]

How about these...?

 

[unionrdr]

Can't expand it to be able to read it...