Please Help ASAP, very low pre boil gravity!

[ywgbrewer]

Hi Everyone, just started a boil, checked the pre boil gravity, only 1.005
I don't know what happened, its my first all grain attempt and all seemed to be going well. The only thing I can think of is I did a two stage mash, I was right on exactly 122 degrees for half an hour, but I couldn't get the mash above 140-145 for the next hour instead of the 153. Could this have affected the conversion?
Now, should I get new grains and mash tomorrow, save the hops and yeast, and call her quits for today? Or is there a chance it will come up through the boil process?
Thanks for any help you can give!
ywgbrewer

 

[EJay]

Hi Everyone, just started a boil, checked the pre boil gravity, only 1.005
I don't know what happened, its my first all grain attempt and all seemed to be going well. The only thing I can think of is I did a two stage mash, I was right on exactly 122 degrees for half an hour, but I couldn't get the mash above 140-145 for the next hour instead of the 153. Could this have affected the conversion?
Now, should I get new grains and mash tomorrow, save the hops and yeast, and call her quits for today? Or is there a chance it will come up through the boil process?
Thanks for any help you can give!
ywgbrewer

Some of these questions may be silly, but bear with me:

Was the grain crushed?
At what temperature did you take the preboil gravity? If it was hot, get a sample, cool the same below, say, 80, and check again.

 

[ywgbrewer]

yes grain was crushed, and it was warm when I check the gravity, 130 degress to be exact. Could it be normal to have this low a gravity at that high a temperature? I was hoping for 1.050, not 1.005.
Oh what to do?!

 

[cpatel479]

Can you provide details about the recipe (grain amounts) and what volumes of water you mashed and spraged with? 1.005 @ 130F is about 1.016 at 68F. Still very low.

 

[grainbill]

Did you check for starch conversion prior to sparging?
I use the old school method of checking a teaspoon of the mash with a drop of iodine.

 

[ywgbrewer]

Im trying to do a witbier,
5 lbs Beligian Pilsner
4.25 white wheat (substituted from wheat flaked as they didnt have any)
1 lb flaked oats
.25 lb Munich light

4.75 Gallon Mash in over steps 122/145 (suppose to be 153)
2 gallon Mashout
2.25 Gallon Sparge

The reason the Mashin was so high a volume I kept trying to get the temp to above 150 but was having trouble.

Thanks
Im just boiling trying to figure out if I should add the hops or start over again tomorrow
And if so what did I do wrong?

 

[ywgbrewer]

Did you check for starch conversion prior to sparging?
I use the old school method of checking a teaspoon of the mash with a drop of iodine.

No I didnt, Its my first all grain attempt, didn't even think of that.

What does everyone think, is it salvagable or redo tomorrow?
What could I have done wrong?

 

[cilestiok]

I would continue the brew as usual. I'm sure that reading has to be a hydrometer error of some sort... Finish your brew day as usual and after cooling take a reading again and post the result. Then we can figure it out from there.


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[flars]

Are you using a refractometer or hydrometer? Temperature will affect the SG reading with both. Both will be inaccurate.
With a hydrometer the best temperature for an SG reading is 60°, if your hydrometer is calibrated to 60°. Your hydrometer may be calibrated to 68°, then the best sample temperature is 68° so that no temperature corrections needs to be applied.
A refractometer needs to be calibrated to 1.000 with distilled water. There is a base adjustment that needs to be applied, but that would not throw your SG reading off by much without the adjustment.
Temperature of the sample may be the reason for your problem reading.

 

[EJay]

I would continue the brew as usual. I'm sure that reading has to be a hydrometer error of some sort... Finish your brew day as usual and after cooling take a reading again and post the result. Then we can figure it out from there.


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Agreed. Between the temp and the (what feels like) an awful lot of water, you may have a reasonable OG post-boil. You may have to boil a lot to get your volume down.

 

[flars]

forgot. Is your thermometer calibrated?

 

[ywgbrewer]

Ive been using a hydrometer and a thermometer, not calibrated but I double check both against another one and they each read the same. Finishing a long boil now, will post the results. About to start the wort chilling. Thanks for any input or comments or suggestions you have...

 

[passedpawn]

A hydrometer will read way off at boiling temps. In fact, it very possibly will be damaged. Chill wort to 60F for an accurate reading.

I think measuring your gravity when boiling is an excellent way to always hit your desired OG, but you should do this with a refractometer. $35.

 

[ywgbrewer]

Going to test the gravity soon, and put in into Primary once chilling is done. If gravity its still low should I add corn sugar?
Any ideas?

 

[passedpawn]

Going to test the gravity soon, and put in into Primary once chilling is done. If gravity its still low should I add corn sugar?
Any ideas?

No. You should add extract if you have it. Adding sugar will make a very light flavored thin-bodied alcoholic drink that you probably won't like.

You could probably add stuff to it to get it back to being a beer, but if it requires too much you might just cut your losses, dump it, and start fresh. That's what I'd do if it was under 1.030. Good luck.

 

[ywgbrewer]

Update...
OG became 1.035, so I'm a little relieved, Im glad I didnt toss it like was going to, thanks those of you out there helping me today...
I boiled it down to 5 Gallons instead of 6. Hope that part of it works with the longer boil...
Perhaps this will be a light beer? Yeast is on there munching away now, I just wonder what happened, why it came out so low, anybody have any ideas if I did anything wrong?
Would you still bottle it at 1.035? It was suppose to be 1.053
Hmmmm

 

[IslandLizard]

What are you using to mash in? A converted cooler?

It is very difficult to get a 30°F+ raise in temp in that by adding boiling water, chances are your mash will get too thin too. Each time you add water you also lose a few degrees stirring, and you keep chasing that elusive target.

What I've done is, after the protein rest which I keep quite thick, scoop out the mash with a handled sauce pan and put it in a large pot (2 gallon or larger). Heat that while stirring well so it heats evenly and doesn't scorch. That's very important! When I reach my target sacch rest temp, say 152 or even a few degrees higher, I dump that hot mash on one side in the cooler. Scoop out the cool part from the other side and repeat. Then repeat one more time. It's getting much closer now. Then add boiling water counting on losing another 4 degrees due to stirring while the lid is off.

All that time, keep a layer of aluminum foil covering your mash and keep the lid on as much as possible. Each time I lift the lid I stand to lose 1-2 degrees.

Alternatively you can dump or scoop the whole mash into your boil kettle, and bring the whole shebang to sacch rest temp that way. Then either keep it in the kettle at that temp for the whole hour (put a sleeping bag over and around it) or scoop back into the cooler and add enough boiling water to get to the right temp. If you keep it in the kettle, when the mash is done, dump it back into the cooler and use it as a lauter tun. Rinse out your kettle and lauter, sparge, etc.

Try to keep a water to grist ratio of 1.2-1.5 or even a bit higher (if you must) and it will mash fine.

What did the crush look like? It should not have had any whole kernels in it and the majority of pieces no larger than say 1/16"-3/32".

Particularly wheat (and rye) kernels are small and if the mill's gap is too wide they just won't crush. Let them tighten the mill.

 

[IslandLizard]

Even at 140-145 you should have had better conversion. What did the wort taste like? At 1.005 it is barely sweet, very watery.
Recheck and calibrate that thermometer. Your hydrometer maybe broken, or the piece of paper slipped.

OK I just saw your last post. You went from 1.005 to 1.035 by boiling off an extra gallon? That doesn't add up. You're not measuring things correctly somewhere in that process.

I always measure my first runnings' gravity and volume. At 60-70°F. That tells me what to expect.

 

[cilestiok]

Update...

OG became 1.035, so I'm a little relieved, Im glad I didnt toss it like was going to, thanks those of you out there helping me today...

I boiled it down to 5 Gallons instead of 6. Hope that part of it works with the longer boil...

Perhaps this will be a light beer? Yeast is on there munching away now, I just wonder what happened, why it came out so low, anybody have any ideas if I did anything wrong?

Would you still bottle it at 1.035? It was suppose to be 1.053

Hmmmm

You say "bottle it at 1.035"? Did the recipe say to bottle it at 1.035? I'm not quite sure if you're understanding your process/measurements/recipe guidelines correctly. It is really fogging everyone's ability to help you. No beer should be bottled at 1.035 other than on occasion the heaviest of Russian imperial stouts. Depending on yeast strain your beer should be finishing between 1.000 and 1.010. So bottling would be done within that range, not at 1.035 under any circumstance.


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[ywgbrewer]

Hi Island Lizard,

Yes I used a converted cooler, the reason why I couldn't keep up with the temperature makes total sense, because what you described is exactly what I was doing. Wort was watery and tasted a little sweet. And thanks for sharing your procedure, very interesting, I have a lot to learn. Today was my first attempt at all-grain.
And yes I did go from 1.005 preboil and ended up with an OG of 1.035 at 75F. I figured part of it was boiling off that extra gallon, but the 1.005 was also my sparge water at 130F. I didn't think that would be that far off from the first run off? I checked the SG right from the boil at halfway and it was 1.015

Thanks for mentioning the grains... Yes they still looked like whole grains, I had the malted grains crushed for me and they did look like they were largely still whole after they went through the mill. I had questioned them and they said that's normal, as all they have to be is "cracked open" Is this true?

Hi Cilestok,
Thanks for your comment, I'm fairly new so I got lost in terminology, I indeed meant should I bottle a batch that has an OG of 1.035 depending on what I get as a FG? Is 1.035 too low to continue is what I meant?

 

[IslandLizard]

Hi Island Lizard,

Yes I used a converted cooler, the reason why I couldn't keep up with the temperature makes total sense, because what you described is exactly what I was doing. Wort was watery and tasted a little sweet. And thanks for sharing your procedure, very interesting, I have a lot to learn. Today was my first attempt at all-grain.
And yes I did go from 1.005 preboil and ended up with an OG of 1.035 at 75F. I figured part of it was boiling off that extra gallon, but the 1.005 was also my sparge water at 130F. I didn't think that would be that far off from the first run off? I checked the SG right from the boil at halfway and it was 1.015

Thanks for mentioning the grains... Yes they still looked like whole grains, I had the malted grains crushed for me and they did look like they were largely still whole after they went through the mill. I had questioned them and they said that's normal, as all they have to be is "cracked open" Is this true?

Hi Cilestok,
Thanks for your comment, I'm fairly new so I got lost in terminology, I indeed meant should I bottle a batch that has an OG of 1.035 depending on what I get as a FG? Is 1.035 too low to continue is what I meant?

Your first runnings contain most of the sugar, and that gravity is the highest, typically higher than the OG of your recipe. You don't want to lose more than a drop of that. Sparging is "washing" the grains to get more sugar out. If you sparge twice with half the sparge volume each, the 2nd runnings will be around 1.020-1.035. The 3rd runnings around 1.008-1.020. But the real numbers depend on recipe's intended OG, of course.

Milled grain:
No there should be no whole grains in it and don't buy into that age-old myth they should be just cracked open. Although most of the husk (the fibery tan shell) should remain intact, the starchy body needs to be broken into smaller pieces so the water can penetrate them, activate the enzymes, and convert the starch to sugars within reasonable time and get them into solution. The larger the pieces the harder it is to get the starches and sugars out of the center. People who do BIAB mill their grains very fine, almost to a coarse stoneground cornmeal consistency. In turn, they also use a very fine voile fabric filter to prevent those small bits from getting into their wort.

Although you could ask them to run it through twice, it helps a little, you may need to find another brewshop to get your grains from. Or buy them unmilled and mill your own or perhaps you know a homebrewer friend who can mill it for you. A knock-off Corona mill can be had for $25, and made into a great grain mill with a little ingenuity (Google, HBT). There are real roller mills out for around $100, new, or the better built ones, like Monster Mill for around $150. You can build your own hopper. You do need a powerful drill or a hand crank. Gives you good muscles, so you can skip the gym.

My best advice:

• Buy "How to Brew" by John Palmer (new or used copies abound) or read the online (first) edition of How to Brew.
• Read the stickies and other threads of interest on HBT to get up to speed.

 

[govner1]

Hi Everyone, just started a boil, checked the pre boil gravity, only 1.005

I don't know what happened, its my first all grain attempt and all seemed to be going well. The only thing I can think of is I did a two stage mash, I was right on exactly 122 degrees for half an hour, but I couldn't get the mash above 140-145 for the next hour instead of the 153. Could this have affected the conversion?

Now, should I get new grains and mash tomorrow, save the hops and yeast, and call her quits for today? Or is there a chance it will come up through the boil process?

Thanks for any help you can give!

ywgbrewer

All other questions considered , I think you have a serious issue with your mash temp. If you never got above 144-145°F you may have affected your extraction of sugars significantly.
What mash in temp was called for in the recipe? Did you batch sparge? What temp?


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[ywgbrewer]

Govner1,
I batch sparged and I even did a second sparge to try and get as much sugar as I could to try to save it. The recipe called for a starting temp off 122 for first step, and 153 for second step. I had trouble reaching the 153, it settled around 145 after peaking at about 150. Since I'm using a modified cooler, wondering if I should have just used a single step mash, even though the recipe called for 2 step with the temp increase?

Anyone know what the consequence would be if I went right to the 153 and skipped the 122? I could prob hold the temp better I'm learning if I didn't have to step it up.
And if I did re do it that way, should leave it in for the 60 mins or the whole 90?

Island Lizard,
Thanks alot for taking the time to give me all that info, I'm going to check out the place I got the grains and have a talk with them, and I'll probably start going elsewhere to get them, and since there's not an abundance of places to get grains in this city, I may have to grind my own, I just need to figure out the best option for me. I already have the book you suggested, I just have to open it.
I might even try this batch again, it's in the primary now and it is fermenting just with the low gravity, the only question this time should I redo with a single step mash?

 

[govner1]

You're probably better off doing a single mash step. If you have software like BeerSmith it will calculate the temps for you for a step mash but moving a large volume 30+ degrees is difficult to accomplish if you're unfamiliar with your equipment and not had experience w/ step mashes.
I'd definitely take Island Lizards advice & DEFINITELY read Palmer and anything else you can get so that you're comfortable w/ all the steps ion the process before you begin.
Also, if you're not confident in the crush then ask to have it double milled.

 

[ywgbrewer]

Thanks Govner 1. I'm going to follow your guys advise, and also I think I'm going to redo the batch soon. One more thing? Any consequences to the single step?
And should I mash for 60 or 90 mins?
The recipe called for 30 at 122 then 60 at 153. Should I just do 90 at 153?

 

[govner1]

I've not had problems w/ single step mashes & batch sparging.
Do you have a software program that you can use to set up your recipe?
There are several free or you can get BeerSmith for less than $20. They'll help you get the correct volumes, temps , etc.
you should be ok w/ a 60 min single step mash but w/ the pilsner is definitely boil for 90 minutes.
Again, the software will help you calculate the correct volumes for mash, sparge, pre & post boil.
Good luck!


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[ywgbrewer]

No software program yet, but I will be in search for a good one. Btw, with the OG of 1.035 the krausen is rising well and yeast are dancing away, and it's only day 2, so I remain optimistic! Appreciate all the good advise!

 

[IslandLizard]

No software program yet, but I will be in search for a good one. Btw, with the OG of 1.035 the krausen is rising well and yeast are dancing away, and it's only day 2, so I remain optimistic! Appreciate all the good advise!

I vow for BeerSmith, is under $20 (look among the sponsors on HBT) but the program can be overwhelming having a convoluted, non-intuitive interface. You need to get used to it and "play" with it for a few hours to see for yourself. You can get a free, fully functional trial for a month (I think).

There are free recipe designers online, although some require a subscription to save your data

There are many calculators online and I use a lot of them.

Here's a good mash calculator and they have many more under their "Tools" section.
BrewersFriend

For calculating my strike temp I use this:
Brew365 Mash & Sparge Calculator
Then I add 4° for reasons I mentioned before.

The protein rest is not mandatory, but it helps to convert the proteins from malted and raw grains (wheat, oats, rye, etc.), and boosts the FAN levels your yeast needs.
For your first mashes, keep it simple, nail your temps and gravity numbers, so you get the hang of what's needed and involved.
Then later start to experiment with multi-step rests. If you want you can do a wheat decoction schedule, that takes 3.5 hours to complete.... That's before the 1-2 hours of lautering and sparging, and the boil, of course. That's a day's worth of hard work!

Are you sure that's wheat malt you got, not (raw) wheat berries?
Wheat is very hard and needs to be milled quite fine to get good and speedy conversion. I mill mine at 0.025" now (0.028" before). Add a few handfuls of rice hulls in case the mash plugs up into a solid slab.