Pint is a legal measure and not subjective.

[Whelk]

Though usually I would also let something like this slide, I happen to agree with Nostrildamus. I probably wouldn't have done the penny tip, since that's reserved for when they spit in my food, but I might have given her 10% instead of my usual 20. She doesn't get to make any decisions, like some people have pointed out, so it's not -exactly- her fault, but she should have handled it better. She should have just apologized and asked if they wanted to see the manager. Canada might be a gray area, since apparently they use US and Imperial pints, but still, it's the principle of the thing. If either the waitress or the bartender (who really ought to know better) said "We're really sorry, we don't have bigger glasses to serve you in and we can't come down on the price or our manager will strangle us, but we'll change the board", I would have been fine with that. But they didn't do that, they argued with the guy. I feel like that shouldn't happen in a restaurant.

 

[Bobby_M]

She probably spit in both pints from 8 feet away after that episode. You waitress arguing folks are pretty brave souls. That should really be the reason you don't go back.

 

[zoebisch01]

I tried to stay out of this thread.... its just so damn funny. They need to make a Senfield episode about this. George will go on and on about .473 liters and Jerry will hum and haw while throwing his arms up in the air. Kramer will slide in w/ stogie and interrupt saying, "Jerry, a pint is .473 L not .400", then slide out. CLASSIC!!!

George: "Why do I always get the small pint?!"
Jerry:"Small pint.....small...Man?"

Enter Kramer. Kramer is given a pint overflowing by the bartender on the house.

Kramer makes a clicking noise, winks and says: "Gidddyeaap!"

 

[Whelk]

She probably spit in both pints from 8 feet away after that episode. You waitress arguing folks are pretty brave souls. That should really be the reason you don't go back.

Seriously.

 

[desiderata]

I guess I don't get it. If a pint is .473 of a liter and the glass was .4 of a liter, then the difference that you were making such a fuss about was only 73 THOUSANDTHS of a pint? Can you even measure that? What is that.. a drop? They were probably glad to see you go.

But, the amount in question is not the issue here. Even if you are making a case about it being a miniscule amount, the same goes for the tavern. If it's such a small amount, why don't they just make it a true pint?

I agree for the most part with the OP here. As a customer, you should be free from false advertising and scams such as this. He has every right to bring it up with the employees. No, they themselves didn't set the policy, but at the same time, by giving him more beer or a discount and acknowledging his point, they wouldn't lose anything. It's not like the business will charge employees for how much beer is consumed.

The employees should have just said, "you know, I didn't know that, but you're right, I'll let the manager know, and in the meantime, I'll knock some off the price (or whatever, but something)" and then bring the issue up with their supervisors or management.

If you reread the OP's posting, he uses exclamations in the waitress's responses, indicating rudeness. Even if the employee is frustrated with the customer, it is their job to be professional and correct the situation. If not, then they assume the risk of not being tipped well or at all. That being said, I wasn't there, so I'm just going with the way I perceived it to have occured.

My 2 cents.

Edit: whether you agree or not with his decision to leave a lousy tip, i'm sure we'd all appreciate getting a true pint from the bar if we were to frequent there. They wouldn't have changed the policy without him bringing it up.
"The crying baby gets the milk"

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

The term used for glasses that are not legal pints and are above "glass" size is "Sleave". The bars in Vancouver know this. Most call them sleaves, but some insist on making them seem bigger than they are by calling them "Pints".

In fact it is supposed to be illegal to call it a pint if it is not a pint. At least it used to be. Then again, I have never seen that actually enforced.

 

[Cheesefood]

This reminds me of a drug dealer that gives small bags.

You can buy 'em, or you can walk away and bitch about the quality. In the end, if you want it you'll buy it.

 

[homebrewer_99]

OCD much???

Drink the "pint", don't tip well, and don't come back. No need to piss on the waitress or bartender. Its not their fault the establishment uses glasses for "pints"...

IMHO, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

You're missing the point (pint?)...It's their ignorance he's attacking.

In Europe they specify the size of the glass with the corresponding price for that glass (0,3l or 0,5l etc.) (Those numbers represent 3 centiliters or tenths of a liter and 5 centiliters of half a liter).

It's the principle!!

Like when I was in OK...Shiner (from TX) is an import...really....? ? ? ?
IDIOTS!!!!

 

[homebrewer_99]

This reminds me of a drug dealer that gives small bags.

You can buy 'em, or you can walk away and bitch about the quality. In the end, if you want it you'll buy it.

It's not the size of the bags...it's the weight you're paying for...

 

[Whelk]

Like when I was in OK...Shiner (from TX) is an import...really....? ? ? ?
IDIOTS!!!!

There's an Italian restaurant in my town where they list Sam Adams in the "Specialty and Imported Beer" section of the menu. I'm not sure which they consider the Boston Lager to be (they didn't specify which Sam Adams beer on the menu, but that's what they brought me), but either way....

 

[dibby33]

We have people in the U.K. paid to do just that (weight and measurements dept or something) maybe thats why we get a full pint .

My Aunt used to do that. She and another woman used to go into pubs and order a pint and a shot. Then they say who they were and order one of each spirit to check that it had not been watered down. I would have loved that job!

And yes, if the board says a pint then a pint you should get. As for tipping and not tipping I was not there and cannot comment as I do not know the full picture.

 

[Tony]

I understand the principle of the original point. Some bar and restaurants post "Pints" on their draft bills, and think they can try to bring back some of that ole world charm, but it falls flat. I mean unless you have some bar wench lugging pints and quarts around, and marking her totals on slate with a chunk of coal, and such...well, then they are still in the 21st Century. I know, kind of a stretch, but I hate bars that try to be ole world cool, and have video jukeboxes, electric dart boards and all kinds of new age junk.

But, I have seen many a bar that serves drafts and bottle selections in different glasses. Drafts served in actual pint glasses, while bottle beers are served with 12oz pilsner glasses. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to see their logic, as the 12s would look a bit short and get some complaints.

I love the bars and restaurants who, when you order a draft, ask if you want a 16 or 22 ounce. Precise and to the ounce, which is fine with me.

I also see the other points made in regards to the treatment of the staff. For myself, when I find a place that understands less than me about serving methods, attitudes, etc... I use it as an example of why not to frequent the establishment, or know my options are limited. True, kindness can get you many places that anger will not. But blatent disregard for the customer and their questions does indeed suck. But remember, all bars and restaurants have the right to have you tossed out or have you removed at ther disgression. Even if it is something they are completely wrong about.

 

[Mikey]

Alright look at it this way. What my friends received was closer to a bottle than a pint (.038 litres when a bottle is .033 litres). If you ordered a pint, and in Canada outside of Quebec we use Imperial pints (.568 litres) more often than US pints, and you instead received a bottle would you pay the pint price and not bring it to the servers attention?

Umm not so fast. Official measure in Canada for liquid volume has been the metric system since the 1970s, so the term 'pint' has no official standing. The smaller US pint never had legal standing here.

When was the last time you saw gasoline sold in gallons. Milk in quarts? Beer labelled in pints OR quarts? It's been metric for decades.

What was the bar supposed to do- offer a '40 centiliter glass' on the menu?

I don't know where you got your facts, but Quebec is no different in this respect than the rest of Canada. Glasses of beer in Quebec bars are commonly a 'pint' if you're English speaking, or a 'buck' or 'bock' if you're french speaking. Or the other way around if you're blingual. They're actually anywhere from 300 to 500 ml.

I guess you guys on the left coast don't have important things to occupy your day..............

Be a nice guy and go back to the bar and apologise to the waitress.

 

[Fingers]

The method may not be right but it's simple if you have paid for a pint you should get a pint.

I'm afraid if I was in there I'd of tipped the waitress but paid $4.50 - 15% for the pint - 15%

This would be my stand. The tip is for the service. You pay for the product.

In addition to this, if I felt as strongly (I'm too laid back to really bother), I'd petition the alcohol regulation authority in your province. If it's anything like mine, you would see instant, dramatic overreaction.

A pint is in fact a unit of measure and if alcohol is being dispensed on a regular basis under a measure that does not conform with Canada's standards of measure, an infraction is being committed with regards to provincial law. To sell a pint that is less than a pint is no different than selling a 40 ouncer that is 50 ounces. Can you hear the MADD members screaming over that? No competition is encouraged with regards to alcohol in Canada.

 

[Fingers]

Umm not so fast. Official measure in Canada for liquid volume has been the metric system since the 1970s, so the term 'pint' has no official standing. The smaller US pint never had legal standing here.

Oh, come on, Mikey, of course it does. That's like saying the Japanes yen has no standing because we use a dollar. Look at your jerry can. It's measured in gallons and it has separate measurement marks for both US and UK gallons. We do a lot of businiss with the states. BOTH measures have official standing. In fact, weights and measures have standards neither of us have even HEARD of, but they are official nonetheless. If you don't specify one or the other, you could probably defend serving the lesser of the two, but certainly not some other arbritary quantity.

 

[Whelk]

Umm not so fast. Official measure in Canada for liquid volume has been the metric system since the 1970s, so the term 'pint' has no official standing. The smaller US pint never had legal standing here.

When was the last time you saw gasoline sold in gallons. Milk in quarts? Beer labelled in pints OR quarts? It's been metric for decades.

What was the bar supposed to do- offer a '40 centiliter glass' on the menu?

I don't know where you got your facts, but Quebec is no different in this respect than the rest of Canada. Glasses of beer in Quebec bars are commonly a 'pint' if you're English speaking, or a 'buck' or 'bock' if you're french speaking. Or the other way around if you're blingual. They're actually anywhere from 300 to 500 ml.

I guess you guys on the left coast don't have important things to occupy your day..............

Be a nice guy and go back to the bar and apologise to the waitress.

Well, they did advertise it in a pint, so they should have served a pint. And like some others have already pointed out, in Europe they do advertise .33 liters, .5, 1, and so on, with the line right on the glass. They do the same in the UK with half-pint, pint, and whatever the metric amount of wine they serve as a 'glass'. Same with spirits. Not to shove a stick in anyone's wheel, but I don't think he was really being that rude--it's not like he was screaming or anything. He has the right to not leave a tip if he feels that he was not served well. Think about it a different way--what if they advertised pints of imported beer for 4.50$ and listed a few beers. Your friends all got pints of whatever, but you got your Stella in a smaller glass. I'd be pretty irritated, especially if they argued with me saying that the smaller glass was a pint too. The customer is always right, trite as it sounds, especially when the customer really is right.

 

[Mikey]

Oh, come on, Mikey, of course it does. That's like saying the Japanes yen has no standing because we use a dollar. Look at your jerry can. It's measured in gallons and it has separate measurement marks for both US and UK gallons. We do a lot of businiss with the states. BOTH measures have official standing. In fact, weights and measures have standards neither of us have even HEARD of, but they are official nonetheless. If you don't specify one or the other, you could probably defend serving the lesser of the two, but certainly not some other arbritary quantity.

The Japanese yen is not official tender in Canada- only the Canadian dollar is.

Jerry cans may be marked in US, Imperial, metric and furlongs per fortnight if that still exists. None of them are certified as being legal for trade, just like your bathroom scale.

Yes we 'recognize' US dollars and Japanese yen, and I still go to the store 'for a quart of milk'. But I can't complain when the store keeper sells me a litre of milk and the tourists don't have a legal complaint if a local merchant won't accept US dollar or offers a crappy exchange rate.

The original post was titled "Pint is a legal measure and not subjective" which is true in the UK and maybe the US, but not in Canada.https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=240472#post240472

Talk about a tempest in a (metric) teapot................

 

[Fingers]

The original post was titled "Pint is a legal measure and not subjective" which is true in the UK and maybe the US, but not in Canada.https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=240472#post240472

Talk about a tempest in a (metric) teapot................

Well, I strongly disagree, Mikey. We do need to deal with countries that use these measures so we absolutely have to have a legal definition for them. Without common ground there can't be any trade. Using those measures domestically does not invalidate their legal definition.

Anyway, your tempest in a teapot comment indicates that you don't want to discuss this any further so I guess I'll let it go but I remain unconvinced.

 

[Ivan Lendl]

I cant believe somebody actually said in normal conversation, "0.473"

You should have just light sabored the waitress' head off!

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

Umm not so fast. Official measure in Canada for liquid volume has been the metric system since the 1970s, so the term 'pint' has no official standing. The smaller US pint never had legal standing here.

When was the last time you saw gasoline sold in gallons. Milk in quarts? Beer labelled in pints OR quarts? It's been metric for decades.

What was the bar supposed to do- offer a '40 centiliter glass' on the menu?

Hmmm. Since the building codes in Canada are still in inches and feet then I guess they aren't legal either then??

It's misrepresentation. A glass is a glass if called a glass... see the logic here? Doesn't matter what the official system is.

I will say though, that I wouldl have brought this up with management not the poor bar staff who are just doing what the management says.

 

[Mikey]

I specifically and deliberately said 'liquid volume'- in the post that you quoted. I also gave only examples using liquid measure.

Originally posted by Fingers
Anyway, your tempest in a teapot comment indicates that you don't want to discuss this any further so I guess I'll let it go but I remain unconvinced.

Not at all- you've gone off on a tangent regarding international trade which has nothing to do with the original subject.

 

[Pumbaa]

I turned the glass so that the line (which the untouched beer level was below) and 0,4 were facing her and said, "No, you see right there it says these are 0.4 of a litre and a pint is 0.473 or just over half a litre so these are glasses."

I'm gonna have to side with Nostrildamus on this one in principle but not in his methods. I would be pissed too if I bought what I was told was a pint but then found out not only did they short me (no matter how much it was) but they thought I was so freeking retarded that they could serve me in a glass clearly marked short of what I was paying for then short poured me too boot.

Honestly I wouldnt have not paid for it and would have walked out. Sure it's not much of a difference but imagine if you got screwed 15% at the gas station . . . there would be freeking Congressional hearings

 

[Monk]

why in the world would anyone order stella artois

Have to say...this was my very first thought when I read the OP! I think I would've counted myself lucky by getting less.

 

[aseelye]

Lol, I see your point fiery. But there are standards for a reason. As for the McD's they specifically call out it is a pre-cooked weight. The bag contents are packed by weight. But you're right, anything can be taken to the n-th degree and causing fights over it isn't worth it. On the other hand I think it is our responsibility as a consumer to keep companies honest.

Of course, you can imagine how upset I was recently to find that when I ordered (3) 1 lb bags of hops from these guys, they put WAY too much into the bag, and I came out with about 4.5 lbs between the three bags. Gotta tell you people, if this happens again, I might just have to take it up with the management.

 

[aseelye]

I just went to my local home brew store and bought 6.6 pounds of LME for my next beer.. once I got home I found out I was close to a pound short...

Oh well... I guess it's ok to get shorted I will just have to make less beer.

Yeah, but I would mention something next time. You're probably paying around 2 dollars/lb, you just made a donation to their beer fund, and while they hopefully didn't intend it, they should have it brought to their attention.

 

[aseelye]

Honestly I wouldnt have not paid for it and would have walked out. Sure it's not much of a difference but imagine if you got screwed 15% at the gas station . . . there would be freeking Congressional hearings

Exactly what I was thinking, except people would probably riot and burn the station down. Not that I agree with the methods taken, but I'd love to see what starbucks drinkers would do if the 20 oz megafrappyblasticcino came out at 18 oz.

 

[zoebisch01]

Of course, you can imagine how upset I was recently to find that when I ordered (3) 1 lb bags of hops from these guys, they put WAY too much into the bag, and I came out with about 4.5 lbs between the three bags. Gotta tell you people, if this happens again, I might just have to take it up with the management.

Lol, I usually say something in that case as well. My LHBS sent me an extra pack of yeast once and I told him about it. He chalked it up to his mistake...guess the point is if people know they are not getting screwed and others aren't out to screw them it makes for a much more cohesive society. People are hard enough to understand/get along with without all the extra crap that goes on. :cross:

 

[zoebisch01]

The Japanese yen is not official tender in Canada- only the Canadian dollar is.

Jerry cans may be marked in US, Imperial, metric and furlongs per fortnight if that still exists. None of them are certified as being legal for trade, just like your bathroom scale.

Yes we 'recognize' US dollars and Japanese yen, and I still go to the store 'for a quart of milk'. But I can't complain when the store keeper sells me a litre of milk and the tourists don't have a legal complaint if a local merchant won't accept US dollar or offers a crappy exchange rate.

The original post was titled "Pint is a legal measure and not subjective" which is true in the UK and maybe the US, but not in Canada.https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=240472#post240472

Talk about a tempest in a (metric) teapot................

Devil's advocate here........I wonder if I weigh the same in Canada (actually this is probably the worst example lol because it really isn't equivalent..but I can't think of a better one atm)? Point is that any measurement can be converted from one system to another. In fact there really is no absolute way of measuring something. But if you adapt a terminology it is defined somewhere.

 

[Mikey]

Posting this on a US-based web site is bound to get lots of sympathy because the US still uses the pint, quart, gallon measure as it's only recognized system. If the event had happened in the US, I would lean more to agreeing with the poster.

I'm pretty sure that the bar tender and waitress in question weren't even born when Canada dropped the above measures and started adopting the metric system.

Most people under 35 today wouldn't know that a pint used to be a legal measure, the same as they don't have a clue about temperature measured in Fahrenheit.

I bet they're still laughing about the crotchety geek that got bent out of shape over a name.

 

[zoebisch01]

Posting this on a US-based web site is bound to get lots of sympathy because the US still uses the pint, quart, gallon measure as it's only recognized system. If the event had happened in the US, I would lean more to agreeing with the poster.

I'm pretty sure that the bar tender and waitress in question weren't even born when Canada dropped the above measures and started adopting the metric system.

Most people under 35 today wouldn't know that a pint used to be a legal measure, the same as they don't have a clue about temperature measured in Fahrenheit.

I bet they're still laughing about the crotchety geek that got bent out of shape over a name.

You're arguing over legality. I am arguing over the principle

It has nothing to do with where I live. If they want to redefine the pint to the "Whatever" Pint that is their perogative. But they need to define it. Measurements are accepted or rejected based on several factors. One of the main reasons people use measurements is because they are standards.

I don't see your point with Fahrenheit. °F = 9/5 °C + 32. What is there to have a clue about?

Personally every nation should have gone to the metric system long ago. It just makes more sense.