Pinot Noir! Help set me up for success!

[RPh_Guy]

Hi vintners,

SWMBO needs a delicious Pinot Noir. Unfortunately she's been a little spoiled with some really excellent Willamette Valley Pinots. This will be my first grape wine.

I'm looking to make a decent wine, in the $15-20/bottle value range hopefully without spending that much to produce it. It seems like I should be able to make a nice lively but also refined Pinot within this budget.
Time it takes to complete is not an issue. A 5-6 gal batch is preferred.

So I need either some grape juice or a kit. I was looking at this kit. Is that a reasonable starting point? How important is a "skin pack" when selecting a kit? Should I swap out oak powder/chips for cubes? Would it be better to wait for this year's harvest and get fresh juice (or rather, juice concentrate) without using a kit? Oregon grapes are preferred but I haven't found any currently available. Suggestions are welcome.

I need a corker, corks, and bottles. Any recommendation for a corker that will last and won't make me dread bottling day, but not break the bank? This? Are there particular corks I should avoid?
I don't currently have materials to test YAN/FAN (is this done on the homebrew level?), TA, or fSO2. I'm not exactly sure how necessary these items will be, especially if using a kit.
I also need to pick up an degassing/aeration tool for my drill.

My early experience with beer kits really wasn't very good. Low quality ingredients. I had to unlearn most of what they tried to teach. Once I started learning I modified some of them quite a bit just to make them palatable.
So I'm a little wary of getting kits, but if wine kits are generally fine, then great.

I think I hopefully already have a modest understanding of the basics for wine making. The only part that looks unfamiliar is the large variety of fining agents.
If you have a link to good info, I'll happy read whatever might help me in my journey.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Kent88]

Well you've obviously put some thought into this.

I haven't made a straight grape wine yet either. I have made several fruit wines with mixed results.

I have heard that having grape skins is nice, but they might've just been trying to sell me something. I was going to recommend this, but they're out of stock and I don't know about them first-hand, just some favorable reviews.

Corker's like that are nice. I borrowed my brother-in-law's inexpensive corker once, and I was thankful and it worked, but one like what you linked to is just better in almost every way. I recommend synthetic corks, real ones seem nice and authentic, but mine fell apart when I went to open the bottles. Not sure why or if it is a common issue, but I have never had that issue with synthetic.

I'm also a bit puzzled by all the powders and finings, so I usually just follow the recipe. I use wine yeast nutrients in my fruit wines, but that shouldn't be an issue with grape wine. I think that bentonite is usually added in the beginning to help clear it up so it can be bottled "shortly" after terminal gravity is reached. I don't know if pectic enzyme is used in grape wine, I think it helps with clarity. You probably know something about adding acid powders already. I think wine tannin is just added for taste.

Sorbate is used as a stabilizer, but I have heard several things attributed to it, from preventing re-fermentation to preserving flavor.

Hope that helped a little. Good luck.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks!
It's just hard to know what info I might be missing. I hate learning the hard way.

Have you heard much about Cellar Craft vs Winexpert kits?

I'm curious, were your bottles with natural cork stored with wine in contact with the cork?
I've opened some bottles with natural cork. If I take care to drive the corkscrew all the way through while applying pressure before attempting to pull it out, they stay intact. Learned that lesson the hard way.
I saw there are different grades of natural cork for varying years of aging. Something I read hinted at micro-oxygenation being an important part of aging for wine. On the other hand I have no opposition to using synthetic. As long as it works.

Most the floor corkers are twice the price of the one I linked... :/ Seems outrageous.

.... There's something special about red wine; there's no good substitute for it.

Thanks again. Looking for all the help I can get!

 

[Kent88]

The way I'm looking at this is I haven't found any online sources for uncrushed wine grapes. I'm not pressing them myself. Without finding a vineyard myself which would be willing to let me pick grapes, I don't see a way to go a route equivalent to all-grain brewing. That said, I haven't looked very hard. But considering that, I figure that there must be a lot of people making good wine from kits. My brother-in-law used to make grape wine from kits, and they turned out alright (probably even good, it was just many years ago, before I started enjoying wine). Why not try one kit?

I don't typically store my wine with liquid in contact with the cork.

Floor corkers that look like what you've linked to make it so much easier. I also use mine to bottle beer using heavy-duty belgian bottles with big corks. Cheaper corkers can get it done, but using one made me worry I was going to spill and break stuff. I don't worry about that anymore.

As far as what kit brands are good, I don't know. Making some good grape wine kits is certainly on my list of things to do, but between the time required in fermenter, moving, and my desire to make all kinds of other interesting fermented beverages, I just haven't gotten around to researching grape wine kits like I'd like to.

 

[RPh_Guy]

One can buy grape juice (e.g. Pinot Noir) concentrates online from various sources.
Kits and grape concentrates themselves seem to get overwhelmingly positive reviews. It's hard to trust random reviews on a retail site (what might they be hiding?). Maybe I'm just being overly cautious.

I suppose I should compare prices vs kits.

Natural corks (maybe agglomerated too?) definitely need wine contact to keep hydrated, though only for still wine. With corked beer or sparkling wines the carbonation keeps it moist somehow.

 

[Darthbrewder]

If I were you, I would start out with a kit. Take note of what fining agents are included and the process. Make the kit, then source your own ingredients and finings.

I’ve never made a ‘traditional’ grape wine before. I would love to try. I have made a few muscadine wines, which are grapes, with pretty good results.

I would also have to recommend the synthetic corks. Not because regular corks are bad, but I think they are probably fool proof. Also you don’t have to worry about getting bits of cork in your wine.

 

[imasickboy]

The corker you linked above is excellent. Worth every penny. After you bottle your wine, keep upright for a couple weeks to let the cork fully re-expand. Then you can lay them down for extended storage.

A solid rule of thumb: The more expensive the kit, the better the wine. The more expensive, the more (un-concentrated) juice.

Also, check with your local homebrew store, they may do juice bucket purchases in bulk at harvest time. Some will do it twice a year, once for northern hemisphere harvests, and once for the southern.

 

[S-Met]

I've not made grape wines, so my info is what I've learned from reading and time spent at wineries.

Regarding the skin pack: oversimplified, but the difference between Cabernet Sauvignon and Sauvignon Blanc it the time spent on the skins. Blancs are usually made in 1-2 years and drank by the 3rd. Cab Sauv can be aged on oak that long and may not be prime for drinking for years.

Pinot noir is almost always one of the Champagne grapes but is usually clear. Pink champagne gets its color from time spent on Pinot Noir skins.

Wines from fruit vs wines from juice are kinda like extract vs ag brewing. Both can produce a produce decent wine, but whole fruit adds depth, complexity and variability that you cannot get from juice alone.

I think the skin-pack is like adding specialty grains or partial mash brewing. Varying the time your juice is in contact with the skins alters the end product. Colors, tannins and probably nutrients and other things are extracted that affect the fermenting and end product.

What I find challenging and intimidating about making some wine is the 1-2 year commitment before it's bottled. Your juice isn't even the same from year to year as so many environmental variables affect the end product. How do you know how and where to improve when you cant sample the end product until months down the road.

I commend you for taking on the task and hope your misses appreciates your efforts.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks for the input guys!

@S-Met
I'd assume the concentrate in the Pinot Noir kit is red. So that means it spent some amount of time on the skins already during processing?
I think juice concentrates are made via boiling. If they left the juice on the skins at boiling temp I think they'd get a lot of flavor extraction quickly. Maybe?

I make sour beer, so the 1-2 year commitment doesn't seem overly long. However I was surprised when I saw that kits are usually ready to bottle in only 1-2 months. The kit instructions are taking shortcuts using fining agents and oak (powder or chips I guess). Maybe other shortcuts too? I don't know. I also don't really know why a traditional wine takes so long to bottle besides clarity and oak unless there were fermentation off-flavors.

 

[Kent88]

I think juice concentrates are made via boiling. If they left the juice on the skins at boiling temp I think they'd get a lot of flavor extraction quickly. Maybe?

I actually recently heard about some methods of concentrating liquid that don't involve boiling that I wouldn't be surprised to find were used to make concentrated grape juice for wine kits.

I don't remember all the details, but one of the methods I found particularly interesting involved spraying a mist of the liquid to be concentrated at the top of a silo, blasting warm air into the silo from below, and then some amount of water evaporates out on the way down.

No idea if grape juice gets concentrated that way, but for things that shouldn't be boiled, something like that makes sense.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Pink champagne gets its color from time spent on Pinot Noir skins.

Well - kind of. In fact with a few exceptions pink champagne is not made by the "saignée" method used for most rosé wine, in which the whole wine is left on red wine skins for a few hours to days. Pink champagne is one of the very few pink wines made by blending actual red wine and white wine. OK, so that red wine may have spent weeks/months on the skins in some cases, but it's considered a different approach to the saignée method.

Just going back to the OP - as someone who love Pinot, it strikes me that this is the equivalent of learning to drive in a racing car - or learning to brew by making helles lager. Everything about Pinot is difficult - from cultivation to working with those delicate, ephemeral aromas. Of course, that delicacy is what makes it so wonderful to drink, but if I was getting into winemaking I might start with something that's a bit more forgiving like merlot (yeah, I know) or grenache or something.

 

[RPh_Guy]

What's hard about driving a race car?

Pinot is what she wants? Pinot is what she gets.

 

[bob1852]

Get a kit in the ~$150 range and follow the instructions exactly as written and you'll be rewarded with some good wine comparable to the ~$15/bottle stuff.

I've had good luck with Eclipse brand.

Wine kits are far superior to beer kits in my experience, especially the slightly more expensive ones.

They make 6 gallons, so you'll need a ~7+ gallon fermenter and a 6 gallon carboy for final aging/clearing.

Yield will be approximately thirty 750mL bottles.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

What's hard about driving a race car?

Pinot is what she wants? Pinot is what she gets.

I adore Pinot - but that means I'd far rather have good grenache than bad Pinot.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks AZ, good to know I'm on the right track! Eclipse is the premium line from Winexpert. Their Pinot kit has California grapes unfortunately, so we'd rather give the New Zealand grapes a chance. The NZ kit ("Selection") looks like middle tier.

I adore Pinot - but that means I'd far rather have good grenache than bad Pinot.

What you're saying makes complete sense, but it's the allure of Pinot that's justifying the expense of the new equipment. So I'm going to roll with it and hope for the best.

Hoping I'll have the right combination of knowledge and luck to pull this off the first time. It helps that I'm not expecting $60/bottle quality.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I obviously was in no hurry as I just finally purchased this Pinot Noir kit:
https://morewinemaking.com/products/winexpert-vintners-reserve-pinot-noir-wine-recipe-kit.html
On sale for $70 this week and lots of great reviews. Also RC212 yeast for it.

Thanks again everyone. Next year I'll let you know how it is

 

[DoctorCAD]

That first Pinot kit is less than $100 at Southern Homebrew...

 

[RPh_Guy]

That first Pinot kit is less than $100 at Southern Homebrew...

The New Zealand must? Yeah the place I linked definitely doesn't have the best price on that particular kit.

I did end up finding some whole grapes not from Oregon, but from Washington. Pretty expensive though.
I decided to go with the cheapest kit. The favorable reviews swayed me.

 

[passedpawn]

That first Pinot kit is less than $100 at Southern Homebrew...

That place _might_ be a bit of a ripoff. They list great online prices for wine kits, but then jack up the shipping. I've bought direct (in store) twice -- first time, they honored the online price, which was amazeballs. Second time they told me no way, that price is only if you pay the exorbitant shipping. Maybe it works out for you guys, but just be aware.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'm drinking a glass I just pulled out of the fermenter when racking (prior to adding sulfite and the Super-Kleer).

Deviations to the instructions: RO water to reconstitute. I used RC212 and added nutrients, 2 additions of Fermaid O at 24h and the 1/3 sugar break as suggested by Scott Labs. I'm not adding sorbate to it because that seems silly. I also reduced the amount of sulfite because the amount they provided is absurd. It has been in primary for about a month before racking.
It's fully dry at 0.993, ABV is 12.7%, and pH is 3.37.

It is pretty good overall. It's almost completely opaque; deep purple.
Yay!: It's jammy with great fruit aroma. Berry, blackcurrant, and apple with subtle spice, leather, and rose petal. The alcohol dryness is present but there's also a lingering sweetness. Medium to heavy body. Smooth mouthfeel. At ~$3/bottle it's hard to complain.
Nay: The acidity is a little too much for my taste. I think I would prefer some oak; maybe I'll add some. I don't know which characteristics were added by the fruit and which were added by the yeast.

For the secondary I bought a 5 gal PET carboy which I filled to the brim and have it under airlock. Tomorrow I'll add the chitosan.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Update:
- 9 days under 2oz unboiled Stavin med toast French oak cubes was plenty of time for the hint of oak that I wanted with good vanilla.
- The acidity seems lower, presumably from degassing.
- It's noticeably more smooth.
- It's brilliantly clear from the Super Kleer. Still a dark deep purple but I can see through it now.
- I measured TA and it's approx 5.6g/L tartaric. It tastes good now with respect to the acidity so I left it alone.

It has definitely improved with the oak and fining, and is now on par with quality commercial Pinot Noir. It's really good right now as-is. That's a pleasant surprise since I only started this in mid October.

Got 22 bottles with good racking technique and then 3 more with the "bottom of the barrel" that I didn't want to waste.
I used green Bordeaux style bottles with colmated corks, and I have shrink wrap sleeves for the top.

Thanks again everyone for your help!

 

[JAReeves]

I have appreciated your advice on sour beers and so I am going to bookmark this thread for my knowledge base.

I just bought my wife a Viognier kit for Christmas. Other than the details you included in this thread, is there anything else you would add regarding doin ha your 1st wine kit? It will be our first wine kit as well.

 

[RPh_Guy]

These are my recommendations for techniques to make the best of a kit and avoid off flavors. I obviously don't have a lot of experience with grape wine kits specifically, but I'm really into the science and I do a lot of research. I realize my process is fairly advanced and isn't for everyone, but if you take shortcuts YMMV.

Managing the fermentation:

• First, I use Fermonsters with spigots and highly recommend them. 7gal is best for a 6 gal kit.
• Use RO or distilled water for reconstitution.
• Properly rehydrate preferred yeast with Go-Ferm (proper temp, proper timing, don't stir, hold temperature if possible, attemporate slowly). This is probably the most important step in the whole process in my opinion and should not be taken lightly. Healthy yeast makes a healthy fermentation.
• Aerate must thoroughly. I use a Vortex drill attachment for aeration and stirring.
• Pitch the yeast and stir.
• Control fermentation temperature at the low end of the yeast's range.
• Cover with a towel for the first few days, rather than an airlock/blow-off.
• With proper yeast handling you will see fermentation begin within 12-24 hours. At that point add the first addition of Fermaid O at the recommended rate (4.8g for 6 gallons). Dissolve it in warm/hot water.
• At 24 hours, add 3g/gal bentonite after degassing. Adding it dry is fine. Stir it and add it slowly because it will foam like crazy if it's not fully degassed.
• Degas and aerate at least daily until the 1/3 sugar break (assume FG around 0.993). Be gentle at first unless you like cleaning up wine off the floor.
• Add the second and final dose of Fermaid O at the 1/3 sugar break.
• Add an airlock or blow-off tube. I recommend a blow-off tube so it doesn't suck in oxygen when you swirl the fermenter to degas.
• Allow fermentation to complete and then degas by swirling repeatedly over the course of several days, but only if you can avoid pulling in air.
• If you were keeping it cold, allow the temperature to increase to room temp.

Racking, fining, oaking:

• Measure FG and pH.
• Optional: Measure sulfite level.
• Optional: Measure TA.
• Adjust acidity if desired, and re-measure pH.
• Calculate the sulfite addition (based on pH). Target molecular SO2 around 0.8-1ppm and free SO2 around 70-100ppm. Use FermCalc.
• Add the first stage of clarity fining (kieselsol) to the secondary.
• Rack to secondary; I really like the 5gal PET vessel (no spigot) for this but glass is fine too.
• Degas gently if still needed.
• Add the sulfite. Dissolve it in some water. I recommend fresh sulfite, not what game with the kit.
• If any H2S is detectable, use an appropriate dose of a copper product.
• Add oak cubes if desired (chips aren't good). I would recommend the Stavin cubes I've used. Although limited experience, I have better and faster results by not boiling them.
• Make sure the vessel is filled to the very top with just room for the stopper.
• Apply stopper and airlock.
• Add the chitosan after 24 hours and gently stir. (Remove some wine to make room)
• Taste periodically. I used 2oz of the Stavin medium toast French oak and it was ready after 9 days in secondary.
• If you aren't oaking, just give it 1-2 weeks before bottling.

Bottling:

• Optional: Measure sulfite level and calculate additional dose if needed.
• Use good racking technique to avoid sediment in the bottling bucket.
• I love my Portuguese floor/table corker. It's a great value.
• I highly recommend the Acquamark colmated corks from MoreBeer/MoreWine.

The result is a good quality table wine even with a cheap kit. It's drinkable immediately but it should age gracefully as well, gaining complexity over time from the micro-aeration.

I'm happy to explain any of these steps in more detail or discuss my choices for processes or equipment. I have just recently purchased an aeration-oxidation method sulfite test kit, which completes my wine lab and will eliminate guesswork for sulfite levels.
Testing YAN (nitrogen) is possibly not be worth the expense IMO, depending on your budget.

I love how relatively easy and inexpensive it is to make good wine and I'll definitely be making a lot more.

Best of luck to you!

 

[Brooothru]

Hi vintners,

SWMBO needs a delicious Pinot Noir. Unfortunately she's been a little spoiled with some really excellent Willamette Valley Pinots. This will be my first grape wine.

I'm looking to make a decent wine, in the $15-20/bottle value range hopefully without spending that much to produce it. It seems like I should be able to make a nice lively but also refined Pinot within this budget.
Time it takes to complete is not an issue. A 5-6 gal batch is preferred.

So I need either some grape juice or a kit. I was looking at this kit. Is that a reasonable starting point? How important is a "skin pack" when selecting a kit? Should I swap out oak powder/chips for cubes? Would it be better to wait for this year's harvest and get fresh juice (or rather, juice concentrate) without using a kit? Oregon grapes are preferred but I haven't found any currently available. Suggestions are welcome.

I need a corker, corks, and bottles. Any recommendation for a corker that will last and won't make me dread bottling day, but not break the bank? This? Are there particular corks I should avoid?
I don't currently have materials to test YAN/FAN (is this done on the homebrew level?), TA, or fSO2. I'm not exactly sure how necessary these items will be, especially if using a kit.
I also need to pick up an degassing/aeration tool for my drill.

My early experience with beer kits really wasn't very good. Low quality ingredients. I had to unlearn most of what they tried to teach. Once I started learning I modified some of them quite a bit just to make them palatable.
So I'm a little wary of getting kits, but if wine kits are generally fine, then great.

I think I hopefully already have a modest understanding of the basics for wine making. The only part that looks unfamiliar is the large variety of fining agents.
If you have a link to good info, I'll happy read whatever might help me in my journey.

Thanks for your help.

These are my recommendations for techniques to make the best of a kit and avoid off flavors. I obviously don't have a lot of experience with grape wine kits specifically, but I'm really into the science and I do a lot of research. I realize my process is fairly advanced and isn't for everyone, but if you take shortcuts YMMV.

Managing the fermentation:

• First, I use Fermonsters with spigots and highly recommend them. 7gal is best for a 6 gal kit.
• Use RO or distilled water for reconstitution.
• Properly rehydrate preferred yeast with Go-Ferm (proper temp, proper timing, don't stir, hold temperature if possible, attemporate slowly). This is probably the most important step in the whole process in my opinion and should not be taken lightly. Healthy yeast makes a healthy fermentation.
• Aerate must thoroughly. I use a Vortex drill attachment for aeration and stirring.
• Pitch the yeast and stir.
• Control fermentation temperature at the low end of the yeast's range.
• Cover with a towel for the first few days, rather than an airlock/blow-off.
• With proper yeast handling you will see fermentation begin within 12-24 hours. At that point add the first addition of Fermaid O at the recommended rate (4.8g for 6 gallons). Dissolve it in warm/hot water.
• At 24 hours, add 3g/gal bentonite after degassing. Adding it dry is fine. Stir it and add it slowly because it will foam like crazy if it's not fully degassed.
• Degas and aerate at least daily until the 1/3 sugar break (assume FG around 0.993). Be gentle at first unless you like cleaning up wine off the floor.
• Add the second and final dose of Fermaid O at the 1/3 sugar break.
• Add an airlock or blow-off tube. I recommend a blow-off tube so it doesn't suck in oxygen when you swirl the fermenter to degas.
• Allow fermentation to complete and then degas by swirling repeatedly over the course of several days, but only if you can avoid pulling in air.
• If you were keeping it cold, allow the temperature to increase to room temp.

Racking, fining, oaking:

• Measure FG and pH.
• Optional: Measure sulfite level.
• Optional: Measure TA.
• Adjust acidity if desired, and re-measure pH.
• Calculate the sulfite addition (based on pH). Target molecular SO2 around 0.8-1ppm and free SO2 around 70-100ppm. Use FermCalc.
• Add the first stage of clarity fining (kieselsol) to the secondary.
• Rack to secondary; I really like the 5gal PET vessel (no spigot) for this but glass is fine too.
• Degas gently if still needed.
• Add the sulfite. Dissolve it in some water. I recommend fresh sulfite, not what game with the kit.
• If any H2S is detectable, use an appropriate dose of a copper product.
• Add oak cubes if desired (chips aren't good). I would recommend the Stavin cubes I've used. Although limited experience, I have better and faster results by not boiling them.
• Make sure the vessel is filled to the very top with just room for the stopper.
• Apply stopper and airlock.
• Add the chitosan after 24 hours and gently stir. (Remove some wine to make room)
• Taste periodically. I used 2oz of the Stavin medium toast French oak and it was ready after 9 days in secondary.
• If you aren't oaking, just give it 1-2 weeks before bottling.

Bottling:

• Optional: Measure sulfite level and calculate additional dose if needed.
• Use good racking technique to avoid sediment in the bottling bucket.
• I love my Portuguese floor/table corker. It's a great value.
• I highly recommend the Acquamark colmated corks from MoreBeer/MoreWine.

The result is a good quality table wine even with a cheap kit. It's drinkable immediately but it should age gracefully as well, gaining complexity over time from the micro-aeration.

I'm happy to explain any of these steps in more detail or discuss my choices for processes or equipment. I have just recently purchased an aeration-oxidation method sulfite test kit, which completes my wine lab and will eliminate guesswork for sulfite levels.
Testing YAN (nitrogen) is possibly not be worth the expense IMO, depending on your budget.

I love how relatively easy and inexpensive it is to make good wine and I'll definitely be making a lot more.

Best of luck to you!

Agree with virtually everything you suggest. I've been making wine since the 1970s (much longer than beer BTW), and have done everything from canned concentrates to bulk juices bought at the source, but haven't used anything but kits for at least the last 8-10 years. The higher end kits like Wine Expert Eclipse or RJS En Premier are worth it for quality and simplicity. We've been enjoying the same Selection NZ Pinot you made for the last couple of years. 2017 kit vinted in the Northern hemisphere summer of 2017, bulk aged for 11 months, first served at Thanksgiving 2018. Met with rave reviews from a number of Pinot snobs, and is definitely one of our favs as well.

My wife and I are quite fond of Pinot and have spent several months in the last five years in Santa Barbera, San Luis Obispo, Sonoma and the Willamette Valley looking for the best. This one approaches the upper tier. Our cellar has over 500 bottles of quality domestic and foriegn wines, and we are not afraid to serve this one in comparison to guests.

The only differences I have with regards to your process involve sulfites and degassing. I degas only once after fermentition has completed before stabilization and clarification steps. This is usually sufficient, although in fairness I rack and filter under vacuum before bulk aging and also vacuum fill during bottling, so it is also degassing any residual CO2 during those processes.

Which leads to the sulfite additions. IIRC, you are sensitive to sulfites, as is my wife, so I'm 'concerned' with excess SO. I don't measure for sulfites but a few years ago I did cut way back on the amount I added, especially the additional dosing recommended if bulk aging. Sadly that resulted in a number of wines that were terribly oxidized and ended in dumping more than a few cases.

My experience has been that the sulfites recommended are not excessive and dissipate with aging. In fact they are necessary to protect the wine. If the wine seems too high in sulfites when opened, decanting and aerating causes it to diffuse rapidly.

Your processes and procedures are solid and thorough, and I've tried most of them at one time or another. I eventually came to the conclusion that, at least as regards kit wines, I was overthinking the process.

Start to finish making wine takes a lot longer than brewing beer, but the process is much less involved. I spend most of my time tinkering with beer brewing and let the wine take care of itself.

One last thought: if you haven't tried oak spirals, I think they are slightly better than cubes. Definitely don't like chips, and detest oak 'sawdust'. Cheers.

Brooo Brother

 

[RPh_Guy]

We've been enjoying the same Selection NZ Pinot you made for the last couple of years.

I ended up going with a different kit that I mentioned in a later post, the Vintner's Reserve with no specified region or vintage.
It's definitely a good table wine on par with average commercial quality, but not amazing by any stretch. Maybe it'll improve with age. We've been drinking it so I don't know how long it'll last.

It is actually surprising how good it it after being concentrated somehow, pasteurized somehow, and then left to sit in a warehouse unrefrigerated for probably at least 6-12 months.

I'm not sensitive to sulfites. Part of my personal goal is to minimize sulFATE because I don't care much for overt dryness and it comes across as a bit harsh on my palate. Certainly it is possible I'm overly concerned with aeration. This batch could definitely have tolerated more sulfate because it still is a bit sweet tasting, despite it being fully dry. I'll keep this in mind as I move forward.
The other thing is that I expected to be drinking it young once I tasted it, so I knew I wouldn't need a high sulfite level for aging.

Do you degas by stirring?
I think my method of degassing in primary without opening the fermenter is reasonable; there's no carbonation in the bottled wine and I don't think I added much oxygen in the process.
A vacuum pump on a glass carboy would definitely be a good option. I personally have no interest in glass vessels, however.
Sitting under airlock for >5 months works too in my limited experience.

Questions, if you don't mind:
Do you have a favorite yeast for Pinot Noir?
What's your go-to brand/nationality/toast level for oak spirals? I'm mainly looking for soft tannins and vanilla, with a little smoke and gentle wood flavor. A cinnamon note is ok as well. I don't want toffee, sap, coconut, or strong wood/lumber flavor.
What are some of your favorite kits?

Thanks, I appreciate all your thoughts!

 

[bob1852]

Try a kit with grape skins. The difference is noticable, in my opinion. And I'm not a super taster.

Consider 71b-1122 for pinot. And consider messing around with MLF. MLF and 71b can do some nice subtle things.

I haven't tried them yet, but I wonder if the stable of fermentation tannins listed in the Scott's lab fermentation manual would work well with wine kits.....FT rouge, opti-red, etc...

 

[bob1852]

But, I don't drink much wine, so I don't make much...

 

[RPh_Guy]

Try a kit with grape skins. The difference is noticable, in my opinion. And I'm not a super taster.

Consider 71b-1122 for pinot. And consider messing around with MLF. MLF and 71b can do some nice subtle things.

I haven't tried them yet, but I wonder if the stable of fermentation tannins listed in the Scott's lab fermentation manual would work well with wine kits.....FT rouge, opti-red, etc...

I was wondering if it was worthwhile adding things like Booster Rouge. I decided against it because I don't know what the kit making people already added; it lists tannins among the ingredients.

You've used 71b in a Pinot Noir? That's definitely an interesting choice. I haven't yet used it for anything (I like sour!).
I had considered D254 before settling on RC212.

Do you have a recommended MLF culture or do you just introduce wild microbes?

But, I don't drink much wine, so I don't make much...

Bummer.

 

[Brooothru]

I was wondering if it was worthwhile adding things like Booster Rouge. I decided against it because I don't know what the kit making people already added; it lists tannins among the ingredients.

You've used 71b in a Pinot Noir? That's definitely an interesting choice. I haven't yet used it for anything (I like sour!).
I had considered D254 before settling on RC212.

Do you have a recommended MLF culture or do you just introduce wild microbes?

Bummer.

I would say that K.I.S.S. is the best approach wrt kit wines. The makers have gotten most of the science down. The rest is simply following their mostly simple instructions, keeping freelancing to a minimum. The biggest differential is in the quantity of must and inclusion of grape skins in the kit. 18L is descernably better than 16L. Sometimes you can find 23L kits, but they are rare and expensive, and not significantly better than 18L. The more expensive kits are also more likely to be exclusively sourced from a single vineyard or AVA rather than a blend of the same varietal from multiple sources.

The best metaphor I can think of in using wines kits is baking a cake. You can source all the ingredients or you can buy Betty Crocker. Of course you can discern the nuances if you're a master pastry chef, but most of us just want a tasty dessert. The wines I make are quite satisfying and very approachable. They allow us to serve and enjoy quality table wines on an almost daily basis without breaking the bank, and to compare them with commercially produced wines we've discovered in our travels. Generally they stand up well.

As to yeast, I find it hard to beat Lavlin EC-1118 for all around versatility and application. I always reconstitute even though directions in kits generally advise not to. For oak spirals, any good wine supply house will have wide varieties of options. I'd recommend MoreWine or Presque Isle as sources.

When I want to get creative I will blend different varietals by only botting portions of finished wines and reserving the rest for combining with a complimentary wine. Or buy must at the source and put together your own "kit" with your own list of ingredients. Either way you can really produce some quality wines that can be vinted to your own preferentially tastes at a fraction of the cost.

Brooo Brother

 

[Brooothru]

I would say that K.I.S.S. is the best approach wrt kit wines. The makers have gotten most of the science down. The rest is simply following their mostly simple instructions, keeping freelancing to a minimum. The biggest differential is in the quantity of must and inclusion of grape skins in the kit. 18L is descernably better than 16L. Sometimes you can find 23L kits, but they are rare and expensive, and not significantly better than 18L. The more expensive kits are also more likely to be exclusively sourced from a single vineyard or AVA rather than a blend of the same varietal from multiple sources.

The best metaphor I can think of in using wines kits is baking a cake. You can source all the ingredients or you can buy Betty Crocker. Of course you can discern the nuances if you're a master pastry chef, but most of us just want a tasty dessert. The wines I make are quite satisfying and very approachable. They allow us to serve and enjoy quality table wines on an almost daily basis without breaking the bank, and to compare them with commercially produced wines we've discovered in our travels. Generally they stand up well.

As to yeast, I find it hard to beat Lavlin EC-1118 for all around versatility and application. I always reconstitute even though directions in kits generally advise not to. For oak spirals, any good wine supply house will have wide varieties of options. I'd recommend MoreWine or Presque Isle as sources.

When I want to get creative I will blend different varietals by only botting portions of finished wines and reserving the rest for combining with a complimentary wine. Or buy must at the source and put together your own "kit" with your own list of ingredients. Either way you can really produce some quality wines that can be vinted to your own preferentially tastes at a fraction of the cost.

Brooo Brother

Just realized the pinot we've been drinking lately came from an RJS En Premier Australian kit. Really nice wine. I've also got a few bottles of Eclipse Sonoma Pinot from '14, also on par with some of the better wines you'd buy at the winery.

If you live on the east coast or SE U.S., Southern Homebrew has about the lowest prices and best selection online, but you'll pay the shipping, which for me is still a few bucks lower than anywhere else. Their service is also prompt and courteous.

Brooo Brother

 

[RPh_Guy]

I would say that K.I.S.S. is the best approach wrt kit wines. The makers have gotten most of the science down.

That's what I figured. I didn't add much.

However some things did bother me:
- Why the hell would they include sorbate? It's unnecessary and potentially detrimental.
- No oak? That's a little weird.
- The TA was definitely on the low side for Pinot, below what I see generally recommended.

I'm going to measure the sulfite level in the bottled wine after a few months to see whether my guesstimation was correct.

The biggest differential is in the quantity of must and inclusion of grape skins in the kit. 18L is descernably better than 16L. Sometimes you can find 23L kits, but they are rare and expensive, and not significantly better than 18L.

Hah, this one I made was 10L!

I find it hard to beat Lavlin EC-1118 for all around versatility and application.

I like EC-1118 for ciders. I agree it is a very well behaved workhorse.
I'm surprised you didn't pick a strain specifically suited for reds, like one that enhances varietal character (with beta glucosidase activity) or produces complimentary esters.

 

[Brooothru]

That's what I figured. I didn't add much.

However some things did bother me:
- Why the hell would they include sorbate? It's unnecessary and potentially detrimental.
- No oak? That's a little weird.
- The TA was definitely on the low side for Pinot, below what I see generally recommended.

I'm going to measure the sulfite level in the bottled wine after a few months to see whether my guesstimation was correct.

Hah, this one I made was 10L!

I like EC-1118 for ciders. I agree it is a very well behaved workhorse.
I'm surprised you didn't pick a strain specifically suited for reds, like one that enhances varietal character (with beta glucosidase activity) or produces complimentary esters.

True, there are a plethora of very varietal specific liquid yeasts available, notably from White Labs among others. You can truly craft your own unique wine by using them. But I'm satisfied by the simplicity and consistency of just using the dry yeast (reconstituted and proofed) that comes with the kits. It's usually EC-1118, and occasionally a double-pitch with a packet of Champaign yeast as well. A beta gluco yeast would really help to dry out a big red like a Cab however.

Brooo Brother

 

[bob1852]

That's what I figured. I didn't add much.

However some things did bother me:
- Why the hell would they include sorbate? It's unnecessary and potentially detrimental.

Many of the kits include backsweetening pouches, hence the sorbate....

Probably easier for the company to just have the same stuff (sorbate and kmeta) tossed into all the kits, rather than risk not packing sorbate in the backsweetened kits.

 

[bob1852]

And the lack of oak (or sometimes just oak powder for the primary) is a bit odd.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'm satisfied by the simplicity and consistency of just using the dry yeast (reconstituted and proofed) that comes with the kits.

That's fine. I might try splitting batches with different yeasts to see what each strain brings to the wine, and maybe blend at bottling or in secondary. I think that's the only way to learn what I like.

There are tons of dry wine yeasts on MoreBeer/MoreWine that sound really interesting.

A beta gluco yeast would really help to dry out a big red like a Cab however.

From my understanding, beta glucosidase isn't about drying out a wine, it's about liberating bound terpenes, which enhances varietal character. Seems to be more useful for white wines.

Does that yeast characteristic result in a lower the FG? Not sure about that.

Many of the kits include backsweetening pouches, hence the sorbate....

Probably easier for the company to just have the same stuff (sorbate and kmeta) tossed into all the kits, rather than risk not packing sorbate in the backsweetened kits.

If that's true then they're just lazy. This 16L dry Riesling kit I have on hand has the sulfite and sorbate mixed together, so I have no idea how much of each is in there. That doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[Seamonkey84]

This is all very good information as I get ready to do my first kit (cellar craft sterling Cabernet) after the New Years.

 

[Brooothru]

This is all very good information as I get ready to do my first kit (cellar craft sterling Cabernet) after the New Years.

I've had good luck using Cellar Craft kits over the years. Enjoy!

Brooo Brother

(BTW, what paaaaht of Maine you from, neighbaaah? Usta' live there myself many moons ago. Sure do miss it, but not the six months of wintaaah).

 

[Seamonkey84]

I’m in Souther Maine, in Portland. I love ice fishing and the cold keeps the nastier critters away.

 

[JAReeves]

I've had good luck using Cellar Craft kits over the years. Enjoy!

Brooo Brother

(BTW, what paaaaht of Maine you from, neighbaaah? Usta' live there myself many moons ago. Sure do miss it, but not the six months of wintaaah).

Lol. I'm from L.A. where people have no accent ( and that is so a$$holey of me to say).

 

[MT_Keg]

I have made a few kits that were drinkable and aged well. On my next batch, a Pinot Noir for my wife, I was going to try this:

http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/extended.asp

MT