I do that as well, and just add the total minerals to the keg. I use Tasty McDole's water profiles. Now, if these are supposed to be mash only water additions then the calculations are off. The alternative is to use the Brewers friend app for water, and put in your targets and volume, then add that to the keg to the full volume
PicoBrew Zymatic
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I must add though, that as a BIAB brewer pre-zymatic, I never split my mineral additions - so it seemed more natural for me
There are several of these on ebay with issues. I was about to pull the trigger and show those and dont wanter to waste $2000. I saw one post where a guy had two lemons looks like there are more out there. Anyone have any issues? How is customer support?
Customer service is great, they respond on weekends promptly.
Not sure why anyone would be selling ones w/issues as they sould be under warranty still. If they are not happy with it I'd think they would fix it then sell I'm not sure if the warranty is transferable or not.
I've had mine since January and have done 23 three gallon batches. The best get scaled up to my 12 gallon RIMs.
Not sure why anyone would be selling ones w/issues as they sould be under warranty still. If they are not happy with it I'd think they would fix it then sell I'm not sure if the warranty is transferable or not.
I've had mine since January and have done 23 three gallon batches. The best get scaled up to my 12 gallon RIMs.
I agree - while mine has had no issues - (so no need for customer svc) I have heard nothing but positive things about how quickly and thoroughly the service has been. This seems a bit odd to me.
jtt
Active Member
I was attempting to snag the one on Craigslist. The customer service with picobrew is top notch. Warranty does transfer over, but picobrew confirms with the seller beforehand. They will support you if bought secondhand, but you are on your own making sure the device isn't damaged during shipping.
FuzzeWuzze
I Love DIY
jtt
Active Member
Yeah, i was really taken aback by how awesome the customer service was, especially to a guy trying to buy secondhand.
Physicsbrewer
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Well, after reading through all 57 pages of this thread and some other reviews online, I decided to pull the plug and get a Picobrew tonight!
I've been an all-grain home brewer since '93, heavily into it until around 2007 when running a business and graduate school took over my life. I'm thinking doing smaller batches, more frequently, with less hands-on time will bring back the joy I have always found with this hobby and allow for more recipe experimentation!
I've been an all-grain home brewer since '93, heavily into it until around 2007 when running a business and graduate school took over my life. I'm thinking doing smaller batches, more frequently, with less hands-on time will bring back the joy I have always found with this hobby and allow for more recipe experimentation!
Loodachris
12th man loud and proud!
Just pulled out the credit card and bought one myself just now. AIH had the best deal with free shipping and with the points from this I get $100 in store credit on my next order! Can't beat that. Hopefully it ships out of Seattle and only being 45mins south I should get it in a few days. Can't wait!!
Physicsbrewer
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If you're that close you should run by their place for a visit! I'm on the East coast else I would...
Ran across this new Picobrew review today:
http://www.outsideonline.com/2019301/testing-picobrew-zymatic
http://www.outsideonline.com/2019301/testing-picobrew-zymatic
Physicsbrewer
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Well, this is disconcerting: "The IPA was undrinkablewe nicknamed it Swamp Boot. The Party Porter came out off-flavor, wasnt full-bodied, and didnt taste like a porter. The amber wasnt balanced. The Pico Pale turned out malty and thin without a lot of hop character."
I brewed two extract batches before moving to all grain brewing (way back in the day), keeping yeast on slants, oxygenating my quickly cooked wort, etc, and I have never brewed a bad batch of beer.
I plan to continue those good practices once mine arrives (on Tuesday!). I'm willing to bet the guy who wrote this review just doesn't have a clue, but if I'm wrong, and this "mini RIMS" system doesn't live up to my expectations, I will certainly not hesitate to write a complete review myself!
Rhumbline
Well-Known Member
That touches on most of the concerns that I have with the system. I wish the best for everyone who buys one, but it's not for me.
severum
Member
Totally unfair and a bunch of BS IMO. I am willing to bet the reviewer had no clue what he/she was doing. I've been brewing over 20 years now and the pico turns out just a good a brew as my traditional AG setup.
I'd never go back.
Severum
I'd never go back.
Severum
I'm ok with negative reviews, but this part is silly:
>>But that’s what the Zymatic promised to curtail, and to put it simply, it didn’t. My other big gripe: a lack of regard for fermentation. Fermentation temperatures play a huge role in the outcome of a beer, and the Zymatic leaves you on your own for the whole process.
The system doesn't promise a built in fermentation chamber. If the reviewer is going to slam it for not coming with a fermentation chamber, then you might as well ding the Braumeister, Grainfather, and any mashing system.
>>But that’s what the Zymatic promised to curtail, and to put it simply, it didn’t. My other big gripe: a lack of regard for fermentation. Fermentation temperatures play a huge role in the outcome of a beer, and the Zymatic leaves you on your own for the whole process.
The system doesn't promise a built in fermentation chamber. If the reviewer is going to slam it for not coming with a fermentation chamber, then you might as well ding the Braumeister, Grainfather, and any mashing system.
johnsnownw
Well-Known Member
Well, as far as I'm aware the initial marketing for those products didn't make it seem like you had a perfect glass of beer at the press of a button.
This has been an issue with this system from the beginning, it was marketed as a beer brewing machine, not a wort producing machine. From this prospective, it's a pretty on point review.
Taken directly from their Kickstarter page:
Brew award-winning craft beer at the touch of a button!
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1708005089/picobrew-zymatic-the-automatic-beer-brewing-applia
I really struggled with whether to buy the Pico Brew. I recently opted for the grainfather which has been great and hasn't disappointed me. My biggest gripe was 2.5 gallons and the price. Both are wort creating machines
BentBrewer
Well-Known Member
I set up my Pico 6 days ago, and have run four batches through it. I've had two issues with it. Both issues were, strangely enough, operator induced. Imagine that.
I have no complaints with the machine, and I'm really impressed with the web interface.
For those interested, ArsTechnica has a review up...
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015...ew-appliance-is-not-as-stupid-as-it-sounds/1/
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015...ew-appliance-is-not-as-stupid-as-it-sounds/1/
From the article:
>>Beer competitions have mulled whether to outlaw entries made in a PicoBrew
Really?
1. How would anyone know?
2. Formulating a recipe takes skill.
3. Even if you are given wort, you still need to select the yeast, maintain the right temperatures, cold crash, siphon, bottle/keg it.
4. I suspect that an experienced brewer can make better wort than using the Zymatic. Even if not, I would accept entries produced by the Zymatic.
5. If you ban Zymatic entries then where do you draw the line? Don't allow any machine, such as the Grainfather or Braumeister, etc? Why stop there? Why not ban Malt Extract because the brewer "cheated" and didn't mash it themselves.
6. Do you think that if the gold medal winners at NHC published their recipes, you would equal them using a Zymatic? Maybe if there were 100 entries, one would come out unbelievably well. The others would probably be good, but not gold medal winners.
>>The bad
•For most potential users, beer-brewing is a hobby, not something they want to take time away from.
•The Zymatic still leaves room for user error once the beer has been brewed.
A - I enjoy playing around with ingredients. If I had a house elf (like Dobby) I'd formulate the recipe then tell him to brew it and clean up when he's done.
B - User error possible after the wort is prepared? What more would you like? A temperature controlled fermentation system, plus a yeast monitoring system?
How about: clean and sanitize your equipment, use healthy yeast, maintain reasonable fermentation temperature. (don't put your fermentation container in a sleeping bag in 90 degree weather). If you can't do that, then maybe you aren't really interested in home brewing.
bobbytuck
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That's just flat out assinine if it's true (which I doubt). I've made 65+ batches with my Pico. It's as difficult -- if not more -- to crank out a good batch with the Pico than it was with my old 10 gallon HERMS. There's nothing easy with brewing *good* beer on the Pico. Although, as I've learned, it's pretty easy to brew crappy beer. But the crappy beer is my fault -- not the Pico's.
It's just is a souped up sous vide appliance with a couple of high temp pumps and a precise water spigot. That's all it is. Literally. There's absolutely nothing magical about the Pico's mashing and boiling except temperature control. Sorta like with any brew set up -- electric or propane. (Of course, there's thousands of R&D hours behind it, too -- but in terms of the equipment itself. It's not that different that anyone's electric setup -- just a lot more precise.)
I've brewed my share of bad Pico batches, ruined nearly 10 batches over 3 months due to boil flashing and a potentially flaky pump/PID setup, and brewed easily -- easily -- 20-30 fantastic batches. My successes (to my taste, at least) outweigh my failures -- and my "fantastic batch" batting average is probably a bit higher with the Pico -- but, frankly, not much. If your post-boil process sucks, the beer will still suck. Just like "manual" brewing.
So to say that there's something magical or "automatic" about the Pico is crazy -- and uninformed. It's nice to have the precise control (just like any sous vide appliance), it's nice to have it self contained (but my electric BIAB brew day time is nearly identical to a normal Pico batch -- about 4.5 hours), and it's nice to have the rotating sparge arm to drop water in the Pico's hops compartments and the mash compartment. The Pico's precision is nice, I'll admit that. But it means nothing if your process sucks. One thing the Pico doesn't do is save you from yourself.
But -- here's the dirty secret about the Pico: some folks know are not even using the built-in hopping compartments. They're going old-school and letting the Pico do the wort pumping/boiling -- while bagging the hops and hanging them directly in the boil keg during the boil.
Yeah, nothing automatic about that.
But I discovered -- as have several other Pico brewers -- that if you want big, old-school hops flavor (old school as in "pre-Pico" brewing setups), you can't really use the compartments. Or you can use them, but you need to supplement them with additional bittering or late-extract hops bagged and hanging into the keg -- exactly like any electric brewing setup. You need to bag and drape the hops to avoid touching the boil coils in any e-brewing setup -- and here with the Pico you need to bag and drape to avoid clogging up the pump.
And while the Pico's 207F "boiling" temp -- which combined with the pumping -- is perfectly fine for "boiling" and driving off DMS, it doesn't work well with hop extract (such as HopShot) to increase your IBUs for big, hoppy beers. (My experience only -- but I've seen the hop extract clump back out when I clean the kegs, so I suspect it wasn't fully isomerized -- or utilized -- even when adding it at the start of the 60 minute boil phase.)
So, yeah, there are issues with the Pico. That said -- it's a fantastic machine. And it makes great, consistent beer. But it's absolutely no magic bullet. Most of the reviews assume it is -- and then getting bummed out because they're making crappy beer. Nevermind that the reason they're crappy is the brewer and the brew process, not the Pico. (If i hear one more review complain about "foaming" -- I'll lose it. You can't cool the wort for 60 minutes in the Pico. You just can't do it. For the love of god, cool to 95F in 15minutes with a couple changes of tap water in a 5 gallon bucket, then stick it in your ferm chamber to cool overnight. 12 hours later, you'll wake up to perfectly cooled wort. A 12 hour pitching delay freaks people out -- but it's absolutely fine. And you don't get the crazy foam that everybody is talking about.)
My own process now is to the Pico for more malt-forward beers -- I've had 100% luck with every Kolsch batch I brewed with the Pico -- they have been awesome -- but use my eBIAB setup (with Hydra cooling) for anything > 1.075 or so and anything IPA-related.
BTW -- the Pico has other advantages, though -- independent of the beer it cranks out. Support is superb -- absolutely superb. They'll occasionally replace lost batches (which is fantastic -- especially when you're so close to finishing a batch and then something goes sideways). The support is actually pretty unreal.
And the community -- within the Pico's forums and recipe exchanges -- is growing. So it's easy to get tips and recipes and tricks.
But here's another dirty secret about the Pico -- and I suspect this applies to the Grainfather, too -- is that you can't run down to Home Depot for parts and you don't immediately know what's causing an issue (leak, boil flash, on-screen error, etc).
Most of us, I suspect, have had issues during a brew day -- leaking connection and can't find the teflon tape, march pump gives out, washers lose from kettle connections, ball valve messed up, ball valve handle suddenly breaks off ... etc, etc. Well, if your Pico does something weird, you need to go through a process -- contact support, wait for the response, and then try and figure out if the batch can be saved. There's no way to "pause" a batch. There's no way (that I've found) to "restart" the boil. You can drain it into the keg. You can skip to the next step. You can cancel the brew altogether. You can start the recipe again -- and then skip all the steps until you're right back where you are. But (for me, at least) this is always a dicey process. No guarantees. I've done this -- and then still had the same issues (boil flashing, leaking, etc.). Back in the pre-Pico days, you spot a leaky pump head or a misattached hose or quick connect that won't disconnect or whatever, and you can fix it -- or go to Home Depot or the local homebrew store and get the part or pump you need -- and then start back up. It's a pain, but as long as you know your own equipment, you usually know the problem -- and you can pretty quickly figure out a quick-fix to save the batch. The Pico is sort of a black box. The error messages are somewhat cryptic. And sometimes the error messages don't let you start back up immediately.
Long way of saying the Pico is far from the "automatic" brewing appliance. There are issues. Another issue is the way Pico is framing the appliance: as a kind of "automatic brewer". I find it a *precise* brewer -- but not necessarily (or always) automatic. I suspect this is what throws a lot of folks who haven't brewed. I suspect folks don't understand the importance of cleaning out the wort -- rinsing, at the very least -- after each batch. And because the Pico can't really be taken apart, more experienced brewers start to freak out a little. You can't use PBW in it. You can't use StarSan (but don't really need to). But you can use special Pico cleaning tabs (cheap for the tabs, shipping is killer -- please Pico -- make these tabs available at normal homebrew stores with relatively modest shipping!). You can use dishwasher tabs. This, I admit, freaks me out a little bit because dishwasher tabs are so caustic -- but it works (at least, I think it does). You do need to rinse like crazy after a Pico tab or dishwasher tab cleaning. But you can't check hoses and internal connections to make sure that the cleaning worked. I mean, no taking apart the ball valves here to clean out the gunk that even PBW doesn't clean (the Pico doesn't have ball valves, but you know what I mean).
The Pico has the infamous silver tape over one of the back screws reminding you that, yeah, remove this tape, you void your warranty. And that's when you realize: this thing *might* have a limited lifespan -- but there's no way to tell ... for sure. Except when you have a problem, go through support, and then get the directives to do X or do Y.
So, you clean as directed -- rinse after each batch, full clean after every 3 batches -- but you can't check to make sure that the internals are, in fact, cleaned. That's frustrating. Especially when there's a nagging sense that whatever problems you might have *might* be caused by a regular cleaning regimen that's not quite working -- but you can't check to verify.
Despite all this -- the Pico rocks. The precision and consistency are fantastic -- and when it works -- it really, really, really works.
I took the plunge and ordered from the kickstarter. I get the zymatic and the picobrew for about the same price as just the zymatic.
My reason for buying this is that it is difficult to brew in harsh Canadian winters where the avg temp fluctuates 16F to -22F no joke! sometimes colder. So that being said, I need to brew indoors which has its own challenges.
I feel like in the cold winter months I can still brew when I get my Zymatic. I was also looking into the grainfather and Braumeister but this deal came around on kickstarter and seems pretty good.
I look forward to tinkering with this, probably going to do pilot brews and scale them up as well with my outdoor system.
My reason for buying this is that it is difficult to brew in harsh Canadian winters where the avg temp fluctuates 16F to -22F no joke! sometimes colder. So that being said, I need to brew indoors which has its own challenges.
I feel like in the cold winter months I can still brew when I get my Zymatic. I was also looking into the grainfather and Braumeister but this deal came around on kickstarter and seems pretty good.
I look forward to tinkering with this, probably going to do pilot brews and scale them up as well with my outdoor system.
Rhumbline
Well-Known Member
From the article:
>>Beer competitions have mulled whether to outlaw entries made in a PicoBrew
Really?
1. How would anyone know?
...
I'm throwing the bull**** flag. I hate to be the cynical one but this sound like a marketing ploy.
"It brews such good beer that it just isn't fair to the people who do it the traditional way"
We've got some folks on here who are judges, what say you?
Wow. Some manifesto you got there
You're 100% spot on about the Pico. Great write up.
kal
Well-Known Member
Agreed! Great write-up bobbytuck. People should read/listen to the info in that long post. It's right on the money.
Kal
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Oooo...might be the kicker I need for this. Now to see if GF has already bought my xmas present yet.
KPBrews
Well-Known Member
I brew standard 5 gal batches on my stovetop in the kitchen. I get the automation advantages (and disadvantages, as bobbytuck discussed so well), and the geek in me loves the idea of the automatic systems, but currently, I brew indoors, whether it's summer or winter, so I'm curious why you can't brew in the winter even though it's cold outside?
Baja_Brewer
Well-Known Member
I would guess a propane based system- no stovetop equipment? A keggle might be hard to move indoors.
What exactly is the pico? I heard JP and Beardie talk about it on the BN recently, but for the life of me I can't find any info on it. It sounded pretty cool. I guess I just don't know how to navigate kickstarter.
bobbytuck
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Start here:
https://www.picobrew.com/
There are two Picos now -- the Zymatic (which many of us have -- and like) -- and the (still very new) Pico. Which all of us don't yet have -- but many have purchased via Kickstarter.
I've not purchased the smaller machine. Not sure I'm interested in something even smaller and more contained and automated than the Zymatic (which I have -- and, for the most part, like -- see my rant above). The Zymatic actually prompted me to go (slightly) bigger -- electric BIAB -- and less "black box". I love the Zymatic, but, as I say above, I grew tired and annoyed with the inability to tinker and fix it. I ended up getting a BIAB system from High Gravity to complement my Zymatic. It uses a custom High Grav control panel (which is solid and fantastic and feels more solid than the Zymatic, strangely enough), but the rest of the stuff from the BIAB system is easily purchased either via any online or brick and mortar brew store (Blichmann Boil Coil and Chugger pump) or from Home Depot (connections, tubing, ball valve, paint strainer bags, etc.)
Here's the system I ended up getting when the Zymatic glitches drove me bonkers:
http://www.highgravitybrew.com/store/pc/BIAB-Electric-Brewing-System-120V-269p4647.htm
This right here. Propane. Keggles. Space. Immersion chiller equipped for garden hose. There are quite a few reasons and I feel at this point time and effort to make an indoor system that I like would cost just as much as getting a Zymatic. Plus, I can just throw the keg outside for an hour of two to chill, so maybe there is one advantage to extreme cold.
honestly, its so cold and miserable to brew in the dead of winter all of a sudden a hobby that is amazingly fun is dreadful.
bobbytuck
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Having brewed through one frigid Chicago winter on a 3-vessel, 10 gallon HERMS on my driveway, I agree 100%. I'd do it again maybe for a special occasion -- hey, it's -10F, let's all go outside and try a brew -- but I'll never do it again on a regular basis. (And I'd probably do an extract batch -- not AG).
I remember a couple episodes of the old BrewingTV where Michael Dawson and Chip Walton did a couple of near-zero or below-zero brews. It's cool to watch on video -- and cool to see the 'Scotchie' they made from hot wort and Scotch whisky (delicious, BTW) -- but do it a couple times in any kind of Great Lakes cold and wind -- and you're close to giving up the hobby.
That's one -- if not the single -- reason I got the Zymatic.
(And how I miss the old BrewingTV ...)
KirkMN
Well-Known Member
Speaking of Brewing TV and Chip Walton. I invited him to shoot an episode of Chop and Brew using my Zymatic. He's pretty busy but I wanted to give him options if he wanted it.
My Zymatic has been great. I wouldn't have got back into brewing if it wasn't for the time savings it has provided me. I still get to mess with recipe formulation, fermentation, packaging, etc... The community around Picobrew has been very positive too. A lot of people sharing and discussing how to better their brew.
As others have said, the Zymatic isn't a beer making machine, it's a hot wort making machine and you still have to do a lot to get good beer.
Our Facebook group almost has 200 members now. It's pretty much open, just request to join and you'll get an invite.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/picrobrewers/
Picobrew has the best customer service of any company I've ever dealt with, by far.
I was about to brew and I wanted to update the firmware of my Zymatic but their flash utility only supported Windows and I have a Mac. I saw one of the admins mention on the forums that they were working on a Mac version but it wasn't complete yet.
I submitted a support ticket asking if i could try it out. Within 5 minutes, they sent me the beta Mac utility and instructions on installation, which went perfectly.
This is one company that truly does customer service right.
I was about to brew and I wanted to update the firmware of my Zymatic but their flash utility only supported Windows and I have a Mac. I saw one of the admins mention on the forums that they were working on a Mac version but it wasn't complete yet.
I submitted a support ticket asking if i could try it out. Within 5 minutes, they sent me the beta Mac utility and instructions on installation, which went perfectly.
This is one company that truly does customer service right.
bobbytuck
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Wow -- I was going to invite Chip down to Chicago for the same thing -- a brew day with Zymatic. I haven't done it yet -- but keep us posted if Chip films a Chop-and-Brew with the Pico!
Chip's ChopAndBrew is awesome. About as good (and as close) to BrewingTV as possible. Love it when Michael Dawson is on, too. I've watched a couple of those old NorthernBrewer BrewingTV vids 5, 6 times. Wish they'd had a chance to do more.
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