PicoBrew Pico users

[thammill]

Quick question --- has anyone else had problems during racking with slow to no flow due to a dip tube that may be to long? My last batch had a ton of trub..... I got about 2/3 of it out of the fermentation keg before it was not go (btw... brewing in using a Pico S with factory keg and dip tube)

 

[jrb03]

Quick question --- has anyone else had problems during racking with slow to no flow due to a dip tube that may be to long? My last batch had a ton of trub..... I got about 2/3 of it out of the fermentation keg before it was not go (btw... brewing in using a Pico S with factory keg and dip tube)

It happens. A good cold crash helps compact the solids. If it plugs pull the dip tube, clear it, sanitize, continue.

 

[Pelikan11]

Just opened my Stargazer IPA and noticed it came with Nottingham ale yeast. This is a PAC NW IPA. Anyone have a theory as to why they would send Nottingham?

 

[jrb03]

Just opened my Stargazer IPA and noticed it came with Nottingham ale yeast. This is a PAC NW IPA. Anyone have a theory as to why they would send Nottingham?

I can't confirm, but my educated observation last few weeks is that US05 might be getting phased out, Nottingham is starting to show up.

 

[pagrider]

Just some observations after about 10 brews. My beers are far better when fermented in a temperature controlled environment. I have primarily used Wyeast 1056. I just tried two batches of stingray IPA. One using the FF method at 75 to 77 degrees room temperature and the other controlled temperature at 62 degrees. The FF beer was drinkable and good the temperature controlled beer was very similar to the real thing and excellent. The Og on both was 1.075. Final gravity after 3 weeks on the FF was 1.013 and 1.010 using temperature control. Take it for what its worth but if you want the best beer from the pico you should ferment like the pros.

 

[pagrider]

Just tapped Autumnator dopplebock its amazing. Followed the traditional lagar fermentation and used the provided dry yeast.

 

[Ewelady]

I can't confirm, but my educated observation last few weeks is that US05 might be getting phased out, Nottingham is starting to show up.

I just brewed Denny's it had 05 and i have an unbrewed Farmer's Tan which also has 05. Both were received last week.

So they are pairing different ones with different beers.

 

[jrb03]

I just brewed Denny's it had 05 and i have an unbrewed Farmer's Tan which also has 05. Both were received last week.

So they are pairing different ones with different beers.

I’ve seen beers that used to ship with 05 ship with BRY97. It looks like a slow rollout. Probably using up stock.

 

[bobbob911]

I've had several beers come with S-04 now. Any thoughts about this yeast in terms of the same aftertaste problems as S-05?

 

[jrb03]

I’ve done several with s04, no issues. Just pitch 1 tsp. There are several yeasts being used now, the only one I stay away from is us05.

 

[Denny]

I've had several beers come with S-04 now. Any thoughts about this yeast in terms of the same aftertaste problems as S-05?

IMO, not the same issues, but different ones. I find S-04 way too bready tasting for me.

 

[Oleary]

I've had several beers come with S-04 now. Any thoughts about this yeast in terms of the same aftertaste problems as S-05?

FWIW, I've been using a 1/2 teaspoon of 04 at 64 F for 10 days then 68 F for 4 days on my last 4 batches. Cold crash for 7 days (thanks JRB) then carbonate at 14 psi for 5'ish days. The first two batches are ready and very tasty (Granite Peculiar and Upslope Brown). I made the mistake of using a 1/2 tablespoon (brain fart I guess) on Annie's London Ale which resulted in a sweetish taste. I had problems with the transfer also so I'm not sure I can blame the yeast on that (my fault completely). The two batches fermenting get stepped up to 68 F tomorrow but if they turn out as well as the last two, I'm going to use that going forward.

 

[Oleary]

For those of you that have Zymatics also, what are your thoughts on it? How much more involved is it compared to the S? Cleaning time? Any other thoughts or advice would be great.

Once the Brew Unlimited is over I may take the plunge if they don't add more ingredients to the freestyle. On the other hand, if they kickstart something Z-like, I may take the plunge earlier.

 

[pagrider]

Oleary

I prefer the Zymatic I just dont see the time savings when you consider the fact that you are making almost double the wort. They are both hands off once you add the ingredients and cleaning is not that different. The big advantage is you can be creative with the Z and its far cheaper to make wort.

 

[jrb03]

For those of you that have Zymatics also, what are your thoughts on it? How much more involved is it compared to the S? Cleaning time? Any other thoughts or advice would be great.

Once the Brew Unlimited is over I may take the plunge if they don't add more ingredients to the freestyle. On the other hand, if they kickstart something Z-like, I may take the plunge earlier.

I love the Z, but I won’t pretend it’s a comparable product at all. These are totally different machines, with very different intended purpose and target audience. It really depends on what your goal in brewing is, if you want to brew your own creations you need something other than a Pico, whether you need a Z is up to you. I’ll try to compare the two products since that was your question.

The Z is WAY more involved than the Pico. I can brew two Pico batches in less time with WAY less effort and hands on time than one Z batch, and two Pico batches is a little more beer than a standard Z batch. Cleaning the Pico is so much easier and quicker than the Z too. The post brew cleaning routine of rinses and dealing with the bulky step filter are the one pet peeve of mine with the Z. The first time you clean a 5 gallon keg you will appreciate the little Pico kegs you can clean in the sink. Again, these are to be expected with the bigger machine but you asked for direct comparison.

I am going to assume you are a new brewer and don’t have most of the additional equipment needed, because there is additional stuff you will need to brew on the Z. You will need a scale for weighing grain, and a mill for crushing the grain. You will also need a jewelry scale for weighing small amounts of hops and adjuncts. You will want a hydrometer or refractometer, which are pretty pointless for the Pico. Depending on your water source, you may want to use distilled and need to add brewing salts and get a ph meter. Then there’s fermentation chamber, and kegging equipment, and I’m sure some other stuff I’m forgetting. Point is that it’s not as simple as dropping a Pico pack in and pressing go, and the complete package of everything needed is not included like on the Pico.

Then there is storage, may not be an issue for you if you have a dedicated brewing space. I don’t, I can easily store the Pico in kitchen cabinets and toss it on the counter when I want to brew. The Z is much bigger and heavier, I ended up buying a cart that I roll out from the hall closet to kitchen when I brew, my wife really wants that space back. Then the additional equipment needs a home and has to be brought out on brew day. You will also quickly have a grain silo and hop farm, as buying ingredients by the pound creates additional storage. Again this may not be an issue for you, but it’s got me in the middle of a brew shed build I will hopefully finish this decade. The equipment and storage will be there whether you move up to the Z or other brewing method, it’s just a really nice thing about the Pico not needing it.

I find it laughable to talk about price per batch, someone even thinking about dropping $2K for a 2.5 gallon wort maker probably doesn’t care much. Besides, the Z is very inefficient, if cost per batch is a concern there is much cheaper equipment that will use less ingredients, even cheaper batches!

 

[Ewelady]

Opinions wanted... Pico failed again this time it's the thermoblock has gone bad. Anyway the brew failed and the machine is going back to them and they are replacing it with another machine. In the meantime I have Dennys Little RIPA on day 6 of fermenting. Tilt read 1.035 at 65 this morning. I was thinking of putting the hops in tomorrow, giving it a few days until it hits close to 1.018 and then cold crashing for 36 hours. Then I would have to rack the beer. But I am afraid all the shipping is going to delay things and I've never racked without the Pico. Where is the best place to extend the time to drag it out. Before I put the hops in, after the hops, cold crash for longer? Probably going to be over a week before the new machine gets here.

I am glad they are replacing the darn thing. It's been a lemon.

 

[Denny]

Opinions wanted... Pico failed again this time it's the thermoblock has gone bad. Anyway the brew failed and the machine is going back to them and they are replacing it with another machine. In the meantime I have Dennys Little RIPA on day 6 of fermenting. Tilt read 1.035 at 65 this morning. I was thinking of putting the hops in tomorrow, giving it a few days until it hits close to 1.018 and then cold crashing for 36 hours. Then I would have to rack the beer. But I am afraid all the shipping is going to delay things and I've never racked without the Pico. Where is the best place to extend the time to drag it out. Before I put the hops in, after the hops, cold crash for longer? Probably going to be over a week before the new machine gets here.

I am glad they are replacing the darn thing. It's been a lemon.

Let it ride. You don't want to dry hop until fermentation is complete anyway. At this point I'd raise the temp to 70-72 if you can.

 

[Ewelady]

Thanks Denny, I will see what I can do about the temperature. In between heating and A/C seasons so I might see if it's a little warmer on top of the freezer. To keep a constant temp I brew in the basement. Except in the dead of winter when it comes upstairs to a 68 external temp.

 

[Oleary]

I love the Z, but I won’t pretend it’s a comparable product at all. These are totally different machines, with very different intended purpose and target audience. It really depends on what your goal in brewing is, if you want to brew your own creations you need something other than a Pico, whether you need a Z is up to you. I’ll try to compare the two products since that was your question.

The Z is WAY more involved than the Pico. I can brew two Pico batches in less time with WAY less effort and hands on time than one Z batch, and two Pico batches is a little more beer than a standard Z batch. Cleaning the Pico is so much easier and quicker than the Z too. The post brew cleaning routine of rinses and dealing with the bulky step filter are the one pet peeve of mine with the Z. The first time you clean a 5 gallon keg you will appreciate the little Pico kegs you can clean in the sink. Again, these are to be expected with the bigger machine but you asked for direct comparison.

I am going to assume you are a new brewer and don’t have most of the additional equipment needed, because there is additional stuff you will need to brew on the Z. You will need a scale for weighing grain, and a mill for crushing the grain. You will also need a jewelry scale for weighing small amounts of hops and adjuncts. You will want a hydrometer or refractometer, which are pretty pointless for the Pico. Depending on your water source, you may want to use distilled and need to add brewing salts and get a ph meter. Then there’s fermentation chamber, and kegging equipment, and I’m sure some other stuff I’m forgetting. Point is that it’s not as simple as dropping a Pico pack in and pressing go, and the complete package of everything needed is not included like on the Pico.

Then there is storage, may not be an issue for you if you have a dedicated brewing space. I don’t, I can easily store the Pico in kitchen cabinets and toss it on the counter when I want to brew. The Z is much bigger and heavier, I ended up buying a cart that I roll out from the hall closet to kitchen when I brew, my wife really wants that space back. Then the additional equipment needs a home and has to be brought out on brew day. You will also quickly have a grain silo and hop farm, as buying ingredients by the pound creates additional storage. Again this may not be an issue for you, but it’s got me in the middle of a brew shed build I will hopefully finish this decade. The equipment and storage will be there whether you move up to the Z or other brewing method, it’s just a really nice thing about the Pico not needing it.

I find it laughable to talk about price per batch, someone even thinking about dropping $2K for a 2.5 gallon wort maker probably doesn’t care much. Besides, the Z is very inefficient, if cost per batch is a concern there is much cheaper equipment that will use less ingredients, even cheaper batches!

Thanks JRB. You answered my questions completely.
Yeah, I'm definitely a new brewer (2 extract, 4 BIAB and 12 pico's). I do have most of the equipment though (just ordered the new Tilt also). Initially at least, is it possible to brew smaller batches in the Z? My thought was to use the 1.75 gallon kegs until I upgrade to a few 5 gallon kegs.
One of the first threads (in the beginner section) I read when I joined here said if you're here to save money on brewing, you're in the wrong spot/have the wrong hobby. Probably true for most hobbies.
Thanks again. Very informative.

 

[pagrider]

To continue on with the Z comparison. They are both great machines. If you looking to expand your knowledge and either find new recipes online, get creative with your own recipes or get into whirlpooling or other advanced techniques. Take the plunge. Its also nice to be able to make a trip to the local home-brew shop when you want to brew rather then waiting 2-3 weeks for a pico pack, sometimes longer. I don't understand the hands on. The Z is totally automated once you add your ingredients you can walk away and it does its thing. It can be more difficult to clean because the keg and step filter are bigger but thats to be expected its a larger batch. The process is very similar though in terms of cleaning.

The best feature Time Delay. This is a major benefit. I load the Z in the morning and start it three hours before I am home from work. Its a breeze.

 

[jrb03]

There is no reason to sugar coat the Z process. There is absolutely considerably more hands on time to setup a recipe, weigh and crush grains, weigh out hops, make water additions and so on. He asked for a direct comparison on time required and it’s a valid concern. I would brew on my Z more often if it wasna quicker process, honesty I don’t save any time over my old 5 gallon system. That’s why my Pico gets such a workout, and I don’t wait anywhere near 2-3 weeks for a Pico pack. But I do love the Z when I’m able to use it.

 

[pagrider]

I hope no one is discouraged from purchasing a Z it is very easy to brew with. Please watch the videos on the pico brew website to get info on the brew process. Its not hard

 

[pagrider]

JRB03 there are plenty pf post on here about paks taking two to three weeks. Depends on where you live if you live on the west coast then i can see the time being much shorter

 

[jrb03]

I hope no one is discouraged from purchasing a Z it is very easy to brew with. Please watch the videos on the pico brew website to get info on the brew process. Its not hard

Nope not hard at all, who said it was hard? Actually all grain brewing couldn’t be any easier. But it is more time consuming which is the question that was asked and the answer I gave. You need to work on reading comprehension.

 

[jrb03]

JRB03 there are plenty pf post on here about paks taking two to three weeks. Depends on where you live if you live on the west coast then i can see the time being much shorter

Nope live in Texas. It takes 4-5 days to arrive to me once shipped. If it’s in stock it ships next day. I don’t order stuff out of stock and expect it quick though, I only order packs in stock.

 

[pagrider]

You realize you have posted about long wait times in this very thread. I am not going to get into name calling I will leave that to you.

 

[jrb03]

Your right, I’m living in the now. You said Pico packs take 2-3 weeks to ship, and that’s just not true. There were some hiccups earlier this year where no one was receiving packs, growing pains. They redesigned the order system this summer where you can now see what’s in stock. I thought you were a Pico owner and assumed you knew this. That’s what I was talking about above, I’ll have to explain things better for you.

There is a lot of us on brew unlimited right now and it’s working great. If anyone has one not ship in the time promised contact support and they will take care of you.

 

[jrb03]

Thanks JRB. You answered my questions completely.
Yeah, I'm definitely a new brewer (2 extract, 4 BIAB and 12 pico's). I do have most of the equipment though (just ordered the new Tilt also). Initially at least, is it possible to brew smaller batches in the Z? My thought was to use the 1.75 gallon kegs until I upgrade to a few 5 gallon kegs.
One of the first threads (in the beginner section) I read when I joined here said if you're here to save money on brewing, you're in the wrong spot/have the wrong hobby. Probably true for most hobbies.
Thanks again. Very informative.

Sorry I missed this post. No, unfortunately you wouldn’t be able to use 1.75 gallon kegs for brewing with the Z, 2.5 gallons is the minimum batch size, and it starts with 3.5+ gallons in the keg. You can use the Pico kegs to serve your Z batch, I have split a batch between two Pico kegs since I have so many of them and only 2 3 gallon kegs. You can also use the Pico keg to deep clean, which I do since it’s so much easier to clean than a 5 gallon keg.

You will need at minimum one 5 gallon keg to run the brew cycle, then you can ferment in the keg, or transfer to another vessel like bucket or better bottle if you need the keg free to brew another.

It seems my opinions on the Z hurt some people’s feelings. Just want to make sure you understand I’m giving honest UNBIASED opinions and experiences in this thread. Let me know if you have anymore questions. I do enjoy using the Z, and I’m sure you would too.

Let me know how that new model tilt works, especially through the metal keg and keg lid, if you FF. My only issue with my old tilts has been poor reception at times through the keg and lid.

 

[Oleary]

Sorry I missed this post. No, unfortunately you wouldn’t be able to use 1.75 gallon kegs for brewing with the Z, 2.5 gallons is the minimum batch size, and it starts with 3.5+ gallons in the keg. You can use the Pico kegs to serve your Z batch, I have split a batch between two Pico kegs since I have so many of them and only 2 3 gallon kegs. You can also use the Pico keg to deep clean, which I do since it’s so much easier to clean than a 5 gallon keg.

You will need at minimum one 5 gallon keg to run the brew cycle, then you can ferment in the keg, or transfer to another vessel like bucket or better bottle if you need the keg free to brew another.

It seems my opinions on the Z hurt some people’s feelings. Just want to make sure you understand I’m giving honest UNBIASED opinions and experiences in this thread. Let me know if you have anymore questions. I do enjoy using the Z, and I’m sure you would too.

Let me know how that new model tilt works, especially through the metal keg and keg lid, if you FF. My only issue with my old tilts has been poor reception at times through the keg and lid.

Thanks again. You gave more to think about.

I'll let you know on the Tilt. I don't think they've shipped yet, but should be soon. I don't FF, but I'll test it and let you know. I'm hoping it will go through the kegerator if I leave an old iPhone on top. If not, I can run the charging cord through the C02 hole in the back.

 

[Thorrak]

Sorry I missed this post. No, unfortunately you wouldn’t be able to use 1.75 gallon kegs for brewing with the Z, 2.5 gallons is the minimum batch size, and it starts with 3.5+ gallons in the keg. You can use the Pico kegs to serve your Z batch, I have split a batch between two Pico kegs since I have so many of them and only 2 3 gallon kegs. You can also use the Pico keg to deep clean, which I do since it’s so much easier to clean than a 5 gallon keg.

Although I agree that you really need a 5 gallon keg to brew/ferment in, I think the Zymatic has a maximum design capacity for 2.5 gallons of finished beer -- but can produce less if you want. I was thinking of doing an RIS in the near future and due to the grain hopper capacity was going to scale down the batch size to get it to fit.

Headspace is critical though. I can't see any reasonable batch size that would be likely to brew/ferment properly in a 1.75G (or even 2.5G) keg.

 

[Oleary]

I hope no one is discouraged from purchasing a Z it is very easy to brew with. Please watch the videos on the pico brew website to get info on the brew process. Its not hard

FWIW, I didn't find his answer discouraging. It seemed to contain a realistic look at the differences which is what I was looking for.

The videos on their website are designed to sell the product. Don't get me wrong, they're great videos and I've learned a lot about both the S and the Z but I really wanted a direct comparison from someone who owned both.

All that to say, I'm still interested in buying a Z, but now I have a firmer grasp of what's involved.

 

[pagrider]

If you pull the trigger try heady thumper Easy to brew although it requires whirlpooling. Great IPA. Lots of other great recipes on the pico site as well

 

[jrb03]

Although I agree that you really need a 5 gallon keg to brew/ferment in, I think the Zymatic has a maximum design capacity for 2.5 gallons of finished beer -- but can produce less if you want. I was thinking of doing an RIS in the near future and due to the grain hopper capacity was going to scale down the batch size to get it to fit.

Headspace is critical though. I can't see any reasonable batch size that would be likely to brew/ferment properly in a 1.75G (or even 2.5G) keg.

Actually you can brew more than 2.5 gallons, I’ve done 3.5 gallons without any problem. Your limitation is the 9lb of grain, you can’t do 3.5 gallons of high gravity. I asked support about minimum batch size and was told 2.5 gallons or you would suck air in the keg and cause a lot of foam. I’ve never tried anything smaller though, I usually brew 3 gallon batches.

 

[pagrider]

Oleary

Here is a video done by a private user thats pretty detailed. It may be helpful in your decision making.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LECtRV0llGg[/ame]

 

[tommyk421]

Actually you can brew more than 2.5 gallons, I’ve done 3.5 gallons without any problem. Your limitation is the 9lb of grain, you can’t do 3.5 gallons of high gravity. I asked support about minimum batch size and was told 2.5 gallons or you would suck air in the keg and cause a lot of foam. I’ve never tried anything smaller though, I usually brew 3 gallon batches.

With LME or other added fermentables you can get to 4.5Gal or above. You just need to add them at the boil stage and use some Fermcap to avoid foaming or boilover.

I've done a 1.070 and above 4 Gal seasonal/split-test batches this way.

 

[Ewelady]

Nope live in Texas. It takes 4-5 days to arrive to me once shipped. If it’s in stock it ships next day. I don’t order stuff out of stock and expect it quick though, I only order packs in stock.

They don't always ship next day and for us on the east coast it's a minimum of a week in transit. My last order was on the 5th and it wasn't shipped until the ninth but that was due to weekend, but definitely not shipped next day. And I won't receive it until the 16th. I think they need an east coast distribution center. There are more brewers here.

Still don't have my replacement machine either.

 

[bobbob911]

I just thought I'd share an update on my last couple of batches.

I tried using wyeast 1968 on a couple of hoppy beers (half Squeezed and a three Floyds gumballhead clone I freestyled) at ambient temp (70ish) and they turned out awful, straight drainpours.

Then I tried them again with wyeast 1318 , and I tried the wet towel / swamp cooler trick to lower ambient ferment temp, and the results are *astonishingly great*. Just night and day different!

My takeaways for now are:

- 1318 is going to be my house yeast for the foreseeable future. I tried a batch earlier with it and it turned out great as well. It's a remarkably clean strain. I read this is actually Boddington's yeast but it's also widely used in NE IPAs.

- Even with the fast ferment valve there is clearly an improvement to lowering ferment temps into the ideal range.

I have two questions:

1) I am now strongly considering a fermentation fridge. Ideally a wine cooler since they typically have digital controls to a higher range (as high as 68F from my research). Anyone have any recommendations?

2) I am going to try to save and repitch the yeast. What I did was, after racking, I sanitized a mason jar and spoon, and scooped out the sludge from the bottom. I ended up with about half a cup worth, which is about the same amount of liquid I have been getting from commercial liquid yeast paks (much thicker though). Can I just pitch this next time same as a commercial pak liquid?

 

[bobbob911]

One other thing - I've been relatively unhappy with the dry hop nose from the hop sachels. So I purchased some 400 micron stainless steel mesh, wrapped it around the bottom of the dip tube, and pitched the hop pellets directly into the serving keg (i.e. I cut open the hop sachels and poured the pellets out). Two days in the results are clearly superior, and I have not had any clogging or residue in my glass. I'll update once the keg is kicked if experience any problems or not.

 

[jrb03]

If you saved all of the yeast cake, pitch about 1/4 of it in your next batch. If your next batch is 4 weeks after pitch half. If it’s over 2 months pitch the whole thing. I wouldn’t go past 2 months. I’ve done up to 3 months and it was a pretty slow start.

I normally save about half the yeast cake and split it between 2 batches. If you leave the hops loose and the keg lasts over a week, don’t freak out when your last couple pours looks like a kale smoothie, it will still be drinkable.

If you fermented at 70 and had a dumper something else was going on.

 

[bobbob911]

I can't say I got all the yeast cake - I got about half of it and that was about half a cup worth of beige sludge I'll be repitching it shortly into 2 more batches.

I've been reading that 1968 yeast is kind of finicky, not sure. I'm really happy with 1318 though.