partial grain practical question

[Monk]

I just brewed my first batch of extract + grain pale ale. I ran into a small problem, though. When trying to steep the crushed grains (which were tied up in a sock thingy) in the hot water, they sunk to the bottom and were sitting on the hot metal bottom of the pot. I didn't think this was good, so I rigged the grain bag up to hang fromt the stove fan above the pot with the bag just submerged. Is it normal for the grain bag to not float? Did I do something wrong?

 

[El Pistolero]

Grain is heavier than water, so no it won't float. You didn't do anything wrong...just went to a little extra work. Next time just warm your water up before putting your grains so you don't have to worry about burning the bag.

 

[Monk]

thanks. So it's okay that the grain bag sits on the bottom for steeping?

 

[Walker]

yeah, that's fine. as long as it's in the water, the steep is good to go.

 

[jeffg]

I always used to tie my muslim bag off of one of the brewpot handles--worked like a charm.

 

[Monk]

Thanks a lot, guys. That makes me feel much better!

 

[Lou]

I always used to tie my muslim bag off of one of the brewpot handles--worked like a charm.

heh....i believe you mean muslin.....

 

[Janx]

If you are directly applying heat, you really don't want the grain on the bottom. I never apply heat to my mash tun. You should be able to achieve the desired temperatures using infusions.

Really, though, what you're doing is steeping. Don't count on getting much in the way of yield if you're using a grain bag and just sort of wringing it out. A proper sparge is the most important aspect of grain brewing. You need to allow a grain bed to form and slowly sparge it properly. What you're doing is fine for adjuncts like crystal, chocolate, but it's not a way to do a mash IMO.

 

[El Pistolero]

Really, though, what you're doing is steeping. Don't count on getting much in the way of yield if you're using a grain bag and just sort of wringing it out. A proper sparge is the most important aspect of grain brewing. You need to allow a grain bed to form and slowly sparge it properly. What you're doing is fine for adjuncts like crystal, chocolate, but it's not a way to do a mash IMO.

He said he was steeping in his first post.

I guess that does mean he's in the wrong forum tho...should we shoot him?

 

[Janx]

He said he was steeping in his first post.

I guess that does mean he's in the wrong forum tho...should we shoot him?

Nah, no need to shoot. I was unclear on whether he was trying to mash or not. For some reason it read to me like he was trying a partial mash. Probably because of the forum.

Maybe I need to be shot

Cheers

 

[El Pistolero]

Nah, no need to shoot.

Dang...I've been dying to shoot someone.

I was unclear on whether he was trying to mash or not. For some reason it read to me like he was trying a partial mash. Probably because of the forum.

IMHO, about 99% of us are confused about the diff (between steeping and mini-mash) when we first come on here, and I'm still 50% convinced I'm 75% wrong.

 

[Walker]

I'm still 50% convinced I'm 75% wrong.

Man, I just wish I was half as sure of myself as you are, EP.

-walker

 

[Monk]

Whoa whoa whoa...no shooting is required of anybody, right?? I'm a total newby and (this is embarrassing) I didn't know there was a difference between mashing and steeping. OOps!

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Don't worry, it's just a kneecap the first time (if El P's wearing his specs, that is).

 

[El Pistolero]

Don't worry, it's just a kneecap the first time (if El P's wearing his specs, that is).

Nope, this is Texas...one warning shot in the back.

 

[Walker]

Whoa whoa whoa...no shooting is required of anybody, right?? I'm a total newby and (this is embarrassing) I didn't know there was a difference between mashing and steeping. OOps!

Don't worry. The only damn difference is in the amount of water you use to steep and whether/how you rinse the grains after steeping.

-walker

 

[Drunk Monkey]

I have a question along this line. When I am steeping grains, it says to dunk it up and down like a tea bag. Do I really need to do this for 45 minutes. I have been, but it sounds like from some of the posts on here that i can just let it sit in the water (but not on the bottom)

BTW, I buy mini-mash kits and steep the grains, so I am just as confused as to what i am doing.

 

[Janx]

Don't worry. The only damn difference is in the amount of water you use to steep and whether/how you rinse the grains after steeping.

-walker

To any newbies reading the above, Walker is kidding...

...I hope.

 

[Walker]

i can't gauge whether you are kidding or not, but I am most definately not kidding.

-walker

 

[Kaiser]

If you rely on enzymatic activity to convert/extract sugars from the grains, you are mashing. If you are just extracting something from the grain with hot water, you are steeping.

1lb crystal malt in 155F water is steeping because there are no enzymes left in the malt.

1lb crystal and 1lb pale in 155F water is a mash because you have enzymatic activity.

That's how I see the difference between mashing and steeping so far. One could also argure that steeping is a superset of mashing but not the other way around.

Kai

 

[Janx]

OK, well, there's a LOT more difference between a steep and a mash than what you state, Walker. A LOT.

A mash is a complex chemical reaction where various starches convert to various sugars depending on temperatures, pH and other factors. A sparge is a lot more than just rinsing off a bag of grain.

Steeping is just like making tea. You aren't generating sugars, just getting the ones that are already there. Dunk ground adjunct grains in hot water for a while and then pull them out. That's all there is to a steep.

Seriously...they're very different things.

 

[El Pistolero]

To any newbies reading the above, Walker is kidding...

...I hope.

I'm sure glad you're here...I didn't make any headway on this issue last time it came up. Of course I didn't have a gun at the time.

 

[Walker]

OK, well, there's a LOT more difference between a steep and a mash than what you state, Walker. A LOT.

A mash is a complex chemical reaction where various starches convert to various sugars depending on temperatures, pH and other factors. A sparge is a lot more than just rinsing off a bag of grain.

Steeping is just like making tea. You aren't generating sugars, just getting the ones that are already there. Dunk ground adjunct grains in hot water for a while and then pull them out. That's all there is to a steep.

Seriously...they're very different things.

I beg to differ, and I'm doing so in a friendly manner. I'll put a smiley to re-inforce that friendly part.



there... smiley inserted. Now, on to the disagreeing part.

If I take some 2-row and put it into 155°F water (1 qt for every lb of grain) and let it sit there for an hour or so, I will convert starches in the grain into sugar. It doesn't matter whether I did this in a mash tun or a kettle. I had the water (assume Ph is OK) and I had the grain and I had proper temperature.

Now, it's a matter of getting the sugar out of the grain. If I don't do anything at all to facilitate this (just remove the grain bag and let it drain) a lot of sources will state that you get about 40% efficiency (ie; 40% of the sugar was extracted).

I can stop here. This is a dirt-simple grain steep.

I can go a step further by taking the grain and putting it into a strainer and slowly pouring 170°F water over it to rinse more of the sugar out.

I can stop here. Is this a steep or a mash? We are getting into a grey area if you ask me.

I could strictly control the rinsing of sugar with special equipment and make it take a very long time to extract the optimal amount of sugar from the grain... up into the 70% to 80% range.

Now you would call this a mash.... or a very controlled steep and rinse.

Please, correct me where I am wrong, but I've gone over this time and time again and I can't see what the difference is.

one more smiley to show that I am being good natured about this:

-walker

 

[El Pistolero]

OK, well, there's a LOT more difference between a steep and a mash than what you state, Walker. A LOT.

A mash is a complex chemical reaction where various starches convert to various sugars depending on temperatures, pH and other factors. A sparge is a lot more than just rinsing off a bag of grain.

Steeping is just like making tea. You aren't generating sugars, just getting the ones that are already there. Dunk ground adjunct grains in hot water for a while and then pull them out. That's all there is to a steep.

Seriously...they're very different things.

I feel like playing devils advocate today.

They are two different things, but if you take your steeped grains, and toss in some two-row, than technically you're mashing...or am I wrong about that? Depending on your sparge technique you may get pretty crappy efficiency, but still if there's base malt in there then it's a mash.

Further, if you take your grains bag out, and put it in another pot of water, then combine the two...isn't that kind-of batch sparging?

So really, in Walker's defense, the diff between a steep and a mini-mash really is just does come down to diffs in time, temp, and sparge technique, and the presence of some base malt. Or am I totally off base here?

 

[Walker]

I'm with EP on this one. (and we posted pretty much the same thing at the same time.)

Some people seem to immediately think that steep == adjunt grains only, but there is nothing to stop me from using 2-row in my steep.

-walker

 

[Kaiser]

If I take some 2-row and put it into 155°F water (1 qt for every lb of grain) and let it sit there for an hour or so, I will convert starches in the grain into sugar. It doesn't matter whether I did this in a mash tun or a kettle. I had the water (assume Ph is OK) and I had the grain and I had proper temperature.

this is a mash. It doesn't even matter how much water you add or what the exact temp/PH is as long as there is enzymatic activity that is conmverting starches

Now, it's a matter of getting the sugar out of the grain. If I don't do anything at all to facilitate this (just remove the grain bag and let it drain) a lot of sources will state that you get about 40% efficiency (ie; 40% of the sugar was extracted).

sepetating the solids from the extract is a sparge

I can go a step further by taking the grain and putting it into a strainer and slowly pouring 170°F water over it to rinse more of the sugar out.

still a sparge, with better efficiency though.

I could strictly control the rinsing of sugar with special equipment and make it take a very long time to extract the optimal amount of sugar from the grain... up into the 70% to 80% range.

still a sparge, may be called lautering now since you are using the husks for filtering.

Now you would call this a mash.... or a very controlled steep and rinse.

It was a mash (which requires steeping the grains) with sparging.

Just my 2c to this.

Kai

 

[Janx]

Walker, you're playing semantic games, and I don't think you really know what you're talking about. I know a lot of experienced brewers and no one would agree with your grey area argument...

If I take some 2-row and put it into 155°F water (1 qt for every lb of grain) and let it sit there for an hour or so, I will convert starches in the grain into sugar. It doesn't matter whether I did this in a mash tun or a kettle. I had the water (assume Ph is OK) and I had the grain and I had proper temperature.

Now, it's a matter of getting the sugar out of the grain. If I don't do anything at all to facilitate this (just remove the grain bag and let it drain) a lot of sources will state that you get about 40% efficiency (ie; 40% of the sugar was extracted).

I can stop here. This is a dirt-simple grain steep.

No, it's a mash...a half-assed mash. You are trying to generate sugars by mashing. It's a mash. We're not talking rocket science here.

I can go a step further by taking the grain and putting it into a strainer and slowly pouring 170°F water over it to rinse more of the sugar out.

I can stop here. Is this a steep or a mash? We are getting into a grey area if you ask me.

Well, you're wrong. It's still a mash. Seriously. No grey area, my friend. We're clearly out of your area of expertese, am I right?

I could strictly control the rinsing of sugar with special equipment and make it take a very long time to extract the optimal amount of sugar from the grain... up into the 70% to 80% range.

Now you would call this a mash.... or a very controlled steep and rinse.

No, it's a mash.

I feel like you're trying to get the rest of us to agree with your invented definitions of these terms. Not gonna happen. Brew for a while and you'll come to a greater understanding of these things. A mash is not a steep.

A steep does not have as a goal generating fermentable sugars. When your goal is to generate fermentable sugars, it's a mash. That's a fact, and playing word games doesn't change it. Equipment has nothing to do with it.

Grains typically used in steeps, like crystal malt, already have soluble sugar in the grain. It's almost like adding unfermentable extract. But nothing complicated. It's like tea. Other grains, like chocolate, contribute other flavors that are present and soluble without need for a mash.

Seriously, I can see you're trying to play a bit of a word game here, but you don't know what you're talking about. A steep adds some flavors to your beer and is a great way to make extract beers taste better.

A mash generates primary fermentable sugars for your beer.

Very straightforward, really.

 

[Janx]

I'm with EP on this one. (and we posted pretty much the same thing at the same time.)

Some people seem to immediately think that steep == adjunt grains only, but there is nothing to stop me from using 2-row in my steep.

-walker

Walker, you really need to learn more about this stuff.

Sure you can throw 2-row in your steep, but unless you mash it to generate sugars, it contributes almost nothing to the brew.

If you mash it, then it's a mash.

This is incredibly silly, and you are flat-out wrong.

 

[Janx]

So really, in Walker's defense, the diff between a steep and a mini-mash really is just does come down to diffs in time, temp, and sparge technique, and the presence of some base malt. Or am I totally off base here?

Yeah, you're off. The difference is whether you are trying to generate fermentable sugars or to just extract some flavors from grains that already have soluble sugars (and other flavoring agents),

And you say the "only" differences are time, temp and sparge technique??? Those are pretty big differences.

 

[Kaiser]

Sure you can throw 2-row in your steep, but unless you mash it to generate sugars, it contributes almost nothing to the brew.

I'm with Walker on this and I'm starting to dislike how the discussion is going.

If the water happens to be around 155F, the steep will become a mash since you will generate sugars from the starches in the 2-row. You can call it a partial mash since you don't get all your fermentables from these grains. But it is still a mash. To me there is not much of a gray area here, only a difference in efficiency.

Kai