Oxygenating - Bad for hoppy beers?

[hanuswalrus]

So I'm brewing up a hoppy pale ale right now. I have oxygen and a diffusion stone, which I usually only use for imperial stouts/barley wines etc. I've always been hesitant to use it in hoppy beers for fear of reducing the hop character in the final beer. Oxygen is detrimental to hop flavor/aroma, but I'm wondering if, at this point in the process, oxygenating will decrease the hop character.

Anyone out there noticed any negative effects of oxygenating their hoppy beers prior to pitching yeast?

 

[Double_D]

Yeast needs oxygen regardless of style. Oxidation during packaging and transferring is really the problem you're trying to avoid.

 

[LBussy]

Use the O2. Happy yeast is more important than anything else. I've never heard that O2 is bad for hoppy beers at this point in the process, but if it is that's just too bad because your yeast needs O2.

 

[Natdavis777]

+1 for oxygenating the wort. Oxygen +wort = happy yeast. Oxygen + ETOH = Acetic acid (vinegar). I would be more concerned with light affecting your hop-forward beers.

 

[govner1]

Oxygenate well then pitch your yeast (per Papazian).

 

[badmajon]

I put pure o2 into all of my brews. Don't neglect this step or you will get unhappy yeast which will ruin your beer!

 

[squaremile]

Have you actually done a beer without doing the oxygen step before? If so, how did it turn out? I always add oxygen, but I love testing some of the things that will "ruin" "your beer. It has led me to 20m mashes, no boil, etc.

 

[m1k3]

Have you actually done a beer without doing the oxygen step before? If so, how did it turn out? I always add oxygen, but I love testing some of the things that will "ruin" "your beer. It has led me to 20m mashes, no boil, etc.[/QUOTE

Yes, I have pitched without oxygenating the wort (not even air or shaking)... it will not "ruin" a beer -- in it's self.

In fact, when I am repitching and I have a ton of healthy yeast I will skip the O2 and the batch will start fermentation quickly and turn out great.

I would add O2 for: Lower pitching rates and Higher OG

Temp control will have a MUCH bigger effect on your finished beer than if you add O2 or not.

 

[squaremile]

Very interesting. I may experiment with this soon. I've wondered if enough oxygen gets into the wort just from the transfer of the beer into the fermenter. Thanks!

 

[wobdee]

If using dry yeast, no need to oxygenate

 

[dlaramie08]

If using dry yeast, no need to oxygenate

Wrong. If using dry yeast, there is no need for a starter, but the yeast will still reproduce and will require oxygen to make more cell wall.

 

[wobdee]

oxygenations from Dr. Clayton Cone at Danstar/Lalleland/Lalvin, a leading manufacturer of dry yeast, that I found pretty interesting. Basically he says that dry yeast come packed with the amount of lipids needed to triple the yeast cell count. After those lipids have been used up, additional oxygenation is required for healthy cell growth. For brewing a 5 gallon beer between 3% and 5% alcohol, no additional yeast or oxygen are needed apart from what is available in a single 11g packet. For higher alcohol content beer, you either need to pitch additional yeast or oxygenate to allow for yeast growth. I’m not sure what Danstar considers a proper pitching rate, so that is something I will have to investigate. I do know that Jamil recommends pitching about 10g of yeast on average for an average gravity 5 gallon batch in Brewing Classic Styles."

 

[lumpher]

I make beers in the 1.045 to 1.055 range, and i always use dry yeast. I don't oxygenate, and my only stuck fermentation was from a liquid yeast several years ago. No off-flavors, no stuck ferms, etc. That's enough convincing for me.

 

[squaremile]

If using dry yeast, no need to oxygenate

Why is that?

 

[NoIguanaForZ]

I just bottled a 1.112 OG wheat wine that I forget to pump-aerate before pitching, using US-05. It fermented to 1.020, 12.3% ABV in around 3 weeks (it was still going, slowly, up to the day before I bottled it, but I needed the fermenter so once the readings stabilized, the bubbles stopped, and it started to clear a bit I went for it).

Now, I used two packs of US-05 in a 2.75 gallon batch (estimated 360 billion cells, 200 billion needed according to Beersmith), my wort transfer technique (aggressive pouring through a china cap strainer nested in a large funnel) does tend to aerate fairly assertively compared to, say, siphoning out of the kettle, and I was consciously trying to produce fruity esters in this recipe (fermented at ambient) but it's not as simple, even for big beers, as "no oxygenation will ruin your beer." I don't even bother pump-aerating except in some cases for big beers.

 

[dlaramie08]

If you are trying for a healthy, clean ferment, pitching the right amount of healthy yeast after aerating is best practice. If you want to cut corners, want ok beer, or want esters then do t aerate, whatever. Giving the advice that one should never need aeration, because, it works well enough for me is not good practice.

 

[squaremile]

If you are trying for a healthy, clean ferment, pitching the right amount of healthy yeast after aerating is best practice. If you want to cut corners, want ok beer, or want esters then do t aerate, whatever. Giving the advice that one should never need aeration, because, it works well enough for me is not good practice.

Have your ever NOT aerated?

 

[dlaramie08]

Yes. I make consistently better beer aerating. The evidence of aerating greatly outweighs not aerating. Why not do this easy task to give the yeast the best possible environment for a clean ferment.

 

[squaremile]

Yes. I make consistently better beer aerating. The evidence of aerating greatly outweighs not aerating. Why not do this easy task to give the yeast the best possible environment for a clean ferment.

Interesting. This was with dry yeast? First generation? And what were the differences you noticed?

 

[LBussy]

I love these arguments. Nobody I've ever wanted to emulate took shortcuts. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[JonM]

Read "Yeast." It was written by a guy with a Ph.D. in yeast biochemistry who runs a pretty successful yeast company, alongside a pretty successful Brewer. They explain in detail why yeast need O2 and, in case you're curious, it's a little more detailed than "I tried a beer with O2 and without and they were both fine."

 

[CUrchin]

I love these arguments. Nobody I've ever wanted to emulate took shortcuts. I'll just leave it at that.

I agree. Oxygenate your wort for peat's sake. It's simply good practice and will reduce off flavors. Period.

 

[khillian]

What of whirlpooling with lots of hops? Wouldn't bubbling pure oxygen quickly oxidize all those hop oils?

 

[Natdavis777]

What of whirlpooling with lots of hops? Wouldn't bubbling pure oxygen quickly oxidize all those hop oils?

Again, oxygen is bad for beer, not wort. You dont want oxygen mixing with the ethyl alcohol. Light is hops nemesis. Regarding whirlpools, your whirlpool port should be below the surface, thus not causing any bubbling.

 

[hobomoto]

Oxygen IS bad for hops and hop oils even before its in fermented beer. Thats why we vacuum seal our hops and keep them in the freezer, to prevent oxidation. I've noticed a huge improvement in my ipas since I started kegging and taking steps to avoid o2 as much as possible .

The thing with oxygenating your wort is I think the oxidative process takes longer to occur than the time it takes the yeast to gobble up the o2 you introduced.

In other words, the o2 probably gets used by the yeast in a matter of hours before any significant oxidation of the hop oils takes place.

Just my theory, I could be totally wrong!

 

[wobdee]

I know a guy that hooked up an O2 stone and bubbled in air with a pump while measuring his wort with a dissolved O2 meter. The yeast was gobbling up the O2 as fast as he could give it. I can't remember the exact readings but I think his meter never went over 4ppm. It's probably better to pitch your yeast before aerating so it sucks up the O2 before it has a chance to ruin the wort.

 

[hanuswalrus]

I ended up oxygenating this batch prior to pitching my yeast back when I brewed it a week ago. Fermentation took off and it still has a nice hoppy aroma coming out of the airlock. For most of the IPAs I've brewed in the past, I did not use pure O2, but I did stir like crazy to aerate prior to pitching. For the most part, they have turned out well and attenuated down to where I wanted them to. Of course, that doesn't mean that they couldn't have turned out even better had I pumped pure O2 prior to the yeast pitch. We'll see how this batch turns out in a couple weeks once it's carbonated.

Thanks for responses, guys.

 

[MT2sum]

All good info here, Thanks for all the contributions. I use ONLY dry yeast .... the two times I used liquid yeast, (that stuff in tubes), I had to kick it in the pants with dry yeast to get it going after 3 days of not working. I can usually get almost instant results with dry yeast (usually within a few hours) - somewhere I still have those crummy liquid yeast tubes laying around in a box or something. I was going to mail them back to the manufacturer with a harsh note, but didn't. The LHBS in TN told me it was my fault they wouldn't work because I lived 35 miles from them & they probably warmed up in the car. Here in Montana, I live 110 miles from the nearest LHBS - I'm taking no chances!

But thanks anyways for all the OXY info. I have an older medical oxy machine that puts out about 75% pure oxygen, so that's what I use now.

 

[dlaramie08]

All good info here, Thanks for all the contributions. I use ONLY dry yeast .... the two times I used liquid yeast, (that stuff in tubes), I had to kick it in the pants with dry yeast to get it going after 3 days of not working. I can usually get almost instant results with dry yeast (usually within a few hours) - somewhere I still have those crummy liquid yeast tubes laying around in a box or something. I was going to mail them back to the manufacturer with a harsh note, but didn't. The LHBS in TN told me it was my fault they wouldn't work because I lived 35 miles from them & they probably warmed up in the car. Here in Montana, I live 110 miles from the nearest LHBS - I'm taking no chances!



But thanks anyways for all the OXY info. I have an older medical oxy machine that puts out about 75% pure oxygen, so that's what I use now.

They didn't work well, most likely, because you needed to make a starter. The lhbs owner should have informed you.

 

[NoIguanaForZ]

They didn't work well, most likely, because you needed to make a starter. The lhbs owner should have informed you.

I've found that for normal strength beers the "ready to pitch" claims of Wyeast and White Labs are accurate for a single packet/vial which is before its expiration date and handled according to the package instructions (IE, activation).

 

[MT2sum]

They didn't work well, most likely, because you needed to make a starter. The lhbs owner should have informed you.

Yeah, I had never used liquid yeast before, so I wasn't aware of starters. but they assured me that it was just like pitching my dry yeast, except you didn't have to re-hydrate. That was in Tennessee a few years back. The beers were just low alcohol (5 +%) porters, but the dry yeast did the job - twice!. Unless I move to somewhere close to an LHBS, or start re-using my yeast, I'll stick to re-hydrated dry yeast, I've never had it fail me over the on and off 45-50 years of brewing wine and now beer.
I'm too old to move again anyways, I'm 110 miles from any big city, so my yeast will come thru the mail - probably from Love2Brew in NJ, or HBX from Oregon - between them they seem to give me the best deals on grain, hops and yeast, even tho I have to put a $75 order together to get the free shipping.

Just my 2 centavos ......