Hey all, Just a quick question about oxygen source. Im tired of shaking carboys so im moving up to oxygenation. Any suggestions on where to source the oxygen. A lot of people use the Red Bernzomatic tanks, but im worried that they might contain other chemicals or fuels. Medical grade is obviously the way to go, but if the small tanks will work ide rather just do that, Any input is appreciated.
Oxygen, What to use
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Gameface
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Those bernzomatic tanks are pure O2. Welders need pure gasses, too.
I know I could fill medical O2 tanks at the same place I get my CO2, at Airgas. Not sure if they'd sell the tank or if you'd have to get it elsewhere.
illbeerguy44
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As a welder/fabricator I can tell you there can be only pure oxygen in there because otherwise you could not produce the neutral flame needed to cut or weld steel.
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sandyeggoxj
Well-Known Member
The same gas goes into all of those canisters. The difference is if the are certified for medical or not. The industrial stuff might not have the same "certified" clean tank as the medical grade. It will work just fine. I just bought a flowmeter that measures in l/min and goes on my big oxygen tank. Looking forward to using it.
DesignatedDrinker
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You may be dead set on oxygen as i once was. But i decided to save the cash and just build a mixer powered by a electric drill. Like the one sold on NB for $35 used for wine degassing, i built one for $10 from parts at home depot. Run it for about 20-30 seconds and i have a ton of foam on top. Fermentation always starts fast and goes strong. I usually get a point or two bellow beersmiths estimated FG since ive been using this.
sandyeggoxj
Well-Known Member
The limit for o2 in beer is about 8ppm when using any kind of atmosphere such as an aquarium pump with sanitary filter and diffusion stone. Many big beers need much more than 8ppm o2 for adequate yeast health. That is where pure o2 comes in.
DesignatedDrinker
Well-Known Member
There have been many studys showing this true. And many studys showing this false. I have made 1.070+ beers with just using a power drill diy stir bar and have always hit my FG and the beer came out great. I dont believe pure O2 is required based off personal experience. But like everything in this hobby do what makes you happy and what works for you.
Do you care to share any of the studies that show this to be not true? Everything I have read shows that it is true.
Your statement that oxygen using a diffusion stone and O2 tank is not required is correct. It is in fact, not required to make good beer. But by using a diffusion stone and pressurized tank it is undisputable that it's possible to dissolve more O2 in solution than using shaking or stirring methods. This will result in shorter lag times and stronger initial fermentation.
DesignatedDrinker
Well-Known Member
I agree 100%, but is that necessary and worth the cost of O2, not to me? Does a faster ferm give you a better beer? Nope. As a home brewer, are you shooting for faster production or better quality? So why pay for it if its only saving you a few hours and nothing else? Like i said i have done high grav beers with no issue just using a powered stir bit.
sandyeggoxj
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I guess I generally consider high gravity anything starting around 1.09 or 1.1.
DesignatedDrinker
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beergolf
Well-Known Member
In the Yeast book there is a section on oxygen this is very good.
So in my opinion it is worth the cost to use oxygen. My beers are better since I started using it. If Chris White has done the studies, I am inclined to believe them. After all he lives yeast.
I did make a lot of good beers by just shaking, but I did notice a lightly better taste after starting using oxygen. That along with a proper sized starter of healthy yeast and proper temp control make for better beers.
So in my opinion it is worth the cost to use oxygen. My beers are better since I started using it. If Chris White has done the studies, I am inclined to believe them. After all he lives yeast.
I did make a lot of good beers by just shaking, but I did notice a lightly better taste after starting using oxygen. That along with a proper sized starter of healthy yeast and proper temp control make for better beers.
sandyeggoxj
Well-Known Member
Usually mid-1.020s.
This is a good point. I think the "efficacy" of the additional oxygen over the amount you can achieve by shaking is something I'd like to learn more about. It truly may not be worth it for most. I wonder if there are any experiments in this forum where people have done a split, high-gravity batch with and without pressurized oxygen. I certainly noticed that after I started using oxygen in this way, my fermentations started out stronger and took off quicker. To me, that is worth it.
sandyeggoxj
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Our club is doing this right now. I'll report back after the next meeting.
stpug
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There are lots of experiments floating around regarding dissolved oxygen in various liquids and maximum parts obtainable using various methods. Two professionals that come to mind are Wyeast and White Labs:
Wyeast says you can maximumly obtain ~8ppm using a vigorous shake.
White Labs says you cannot obtain more than about 3ppm using a vigorous shake.
If you believe Wyeast then you're golden. If you believe White Labs then you're not. Oh, ignorance IS bliss!!
Additionally, there have been several experiments done using DO meters by various homebrewers with findings ranging the gamut. I think a large part of the discrepancy amongst the findings is procedural and methodology. It simply a matter of you determining what works for you - in your system - for the beer you like.
If you find you like shaking and you don't think you can make your beer better then there's no use for an O2 setup.
If you, like me, find that you're body hates you sometimes and you need to remove as much strain on yourself as possible then O2 might be for you.
If you find that after using O2 for a while you are seeing improvements in your beer and the only thing you can attribute it to is O2 then keep on it.
After reading Yeast, it really seems like the moral of the story (in regards to sufficient oxygenation) is the health of the yeast towards the end of fermentation and successive batches. Basically a 1-2 point difference in final gravities AND how well that yeast will perform when reused. I do A LOT of reusing yeast so it's critical that my yeast is in optimum health for the next batch, and that I can rely on my expectations of the yeast.
DesignatedDrinker
Well-Known Member
Well said stpug, it all depends on what your doing, what works for you and if you can weigh the cost to the benifit.
I wouldn't consider an O2 system (if a simple regulator and a disposable O2 tank could be called a system...) a necessary part of the homebrewers equipment until a few other things are in place. But, for about $50-60 it's not a terribly expensive upgrade either. A welding tank and fancy gauged regulator can be had for under $150 for those who like to spend more.
I've been using mine for a few batches now, and although I made good beer in the past without it, I find it easier to use than shaking and/or pouring, and the science behind it is pretty solid. Of course there will be naysayers, but I'd trust yeast experts (Who would have ZERO reason to try to convince people to spend money and effort on doing this) who say it's better for the yeast.
I've been using mine for a few batches now, and although I made good beer in the past without it, I find it easier to use than shaking and/or pouring, and the science behind it is pretty solid. Of course there will be naysayers, but I'd trust yeast experts (Who would have ZERO reason to try to convince people to spend money and effort on doing this) who say it's better for the yeast.
sandyeggoxj
Well-Known Member
http://www.bvrgelements.com/product/Oxygenator-Kit/
That is $165 for everything you need for measurable o2 infusion. About 500 batches worth of o2. That means the average cost per batch is $0.33. That is pretty cheap in the long run.
If you are okay with making good beer then don't bother. If you want to make great beer it is something to consider.
That is $165 for everything you need for measurable o2 infusion. About 500 batches worth of o2. That means the average cost per batch is $0.33. That is pretty cheap in the long run.
If you are okay with making good beer then don't bother. If you want to make great beer it is something to consider.
DesignatedDrinker
Well-Known Member
That is a steel tank so internal rust is inevitable unless you take measures to prevent internal rust. Rust formation eats oxygen at roughly 5% a month. So a non reusable tank may be a better option for the average homebrewer who knows nothing about cleaning dive gear. Most diving o2 bottles are serviced every 6-12 months for this reason. The o2 would dissipate before you used it all
That is good research and points. You touched a little bit on the question I am trying to actually get at.
I think a lot of people underestimate the importance of O2 and how dramatic of a difference it can make in your beer.
DesignatedDrinker
Well-Known Member
A dramatic difference in health of reusable yeast sure, but as far as finished quality of beer its more minuscule then anything. I be willing to bet that the majority of your favorite craft beers, the brewery doesnt even use pure O2. Most of mine dont.
Hardin66
Member
Good discussion. I'm looking forward to trying a Ten Fidy recipe, and I'm thinking O2 will help with the high OG. Has anyone posted a build for an O2 system using the red Benzomatic disposable tanks?
Gameface
Well-Known Member
Yes.
Buy this
http://www.williamsbrewing.com/WILLIAMS-OXYGEN-AERATION-SYSTEM-P699.aspx
and screw it onto the bernzomatic tank
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