Just one point Evan, when you say there's not much acid in the wort.
Your full amount of wort IS acid.
It about how strong an acid it is, not how much.
Your full amount of wort IS acid.
It about how strong an acid it is, not how much.
Oxyclean + Aluminum = Reaction!
- Thread starter Evan!
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brewman ! said:
That is exactly correct. Aluminum is considered by USEPA as a hazardous material. However, it is only hazardous at concentrations at thousands to 10s of thousands of times greater than you would expect to get from drinking a beer brewed in aluminum. ALuminum is one of the most abundant elements on earth. You are exposed to it everywhere you go and everything you do. The amount that you could get from a brewpot is very small compared to your daily background exposure without even taking into consideration the aluminum you get from non-natural sources.
I would never be so presumptuous to tell people that they are not entitled to thier opinion, but in the short month that I have been lurking on this board I have seen this debate several times. I am just trying to provide accurate information to people new to this hobby who have legitimate questions. My profession allows me to provide this information on this very essoteric topic. Please make your own informed decision.
Now I have to rack a really nice porter into my secondary. Cheers!
Jim Karr
Well-Known Member
Can I weigh in on this?
My chiropractor quotes a source that claims Alzheimer's will increase geometrically in the future. Vaccines (like the flu shot) contain preservatives like mercury and aluminum which is directly injected into the body.
The body does a very poor job of filtering metals out, so it collects and concentrates within the organs.
I haven't had a flu shot in years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My chiropractor quotes a source that claims Alzheimer's will increase geometrically in the future. Vaccines (like the flu shot) contain preservatives like mercury and aluminum which is directly injected into the body.
The body does a very poor job of filtering metals out, so it collects and concentrates within the organs.
I haven't had a flu shot in years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Evan!
Well-Known Member
orfy said:
Yeah, what you said. I meant, there's not enough acidity.
BTW, while you guys put my mind at ease WRT whether or not this was unhealthy...I was still a little concerned about boiling my wort in a kettle that had any sort of oxidation residue that may have gotten into the brew. It smelled like rust, which makes sense, and I didn't want that, even if the gray coating is supposedly a good thing. When I scrubbed it with a brillo pad, you could see the gray crap pooling at the bottom, and I thought, if a little scrubbing took that much off, imagine what 60 minutes of boiling would do. So I took a precaution and soaked it in PBW for 30 mins. Cleaned her right up. She's not shiny or anything---still has a bit of gray---but nothing like before. So, there you go.
abracadabra
Well-Known Member
Feel free to jump on me about this too. If you are a Smart Alex don't expect a reply. I've learned my lesson about replying to jerks.
Cooking broccoli for 5 minutes in an aluminum pot with water that has a PH of near 7 (neutral) is one thing. Boiling wort or anything with an acidic or caustic PH for 1-2 hours is something entirely different.
As to the advise for Evan not to scurb his pots, why is Aluminum Oxide safer than Aluminum that has not been oxidized? (retorical question)
Once again I'm not trying to convince any of you aluminum pot heads, just trying to post info for the open minded.
Cooking broccoli for 5 minutes in an aluminum pot with water that has a PH of near 7 (neutral) is one thing. Boiling wort or anything with an acidic or caustic PH for 1-2 hours is something entirely different.
As to the advise for Evan not to scurb his pots, why is Aluminum Oxide safer than Aluminum that has not been oxidized? (retorical question)
Once again I'm not trying to convince any of you aluminum pot heads, just trying to post info for the open minded.
nkonkie said:
Wow, not sure if this was directed at me or not. However, this response is exactly the reason that I made the first post. When people look for an answer to a serious question and they are provided with misinformation they may make thier decisions based on the misinformation. As I've said, my profession provides some insight into this particular question that most people do not have.
The following is a copy/paste from the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR) entry for aluminum. I encourage you to read the entire document.
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts22.html
"What is aluminum?
Aluminum is the most abundant metal in the earth’s crust. It is always found combined with other elements such as oxygen, silicon, and fluorine. Aluminum as the metal is obtained from aluminum-containing minerals. Small amounts of aluminum can be found dissolved in water.
Aluminum metal is light in weight and silvery-white in appearance. Aluminum is used for beverage cans, pots and pans, airplanes, siding and roofing, and foil. Aluminum is often mixed with small amounts of other metals to form aluminum alloys, which are stronger and harder.
Aluminum compounds have many different uses, for example, as alums in water-treatment and alumina in abrasives and furnace linings. They are also found in consumer products such as antacids, astringents, buffered aspirin, food additives, and antiperspirants."
"How might I be exposed to aluminum?
* Virtually all food, water, air, and soil contain some aluminum.
* Eating small amounts of aluminum in food.
* Breathing higher levels of aluminum dust in workplace air.
* Living in areas where the air is dusty, where aluminum is mined or processed into aluminum metal, near certain hazardous waste sites, or where aluminum is naturally high.
* Eating substances containing high levels of aluminum (such as antacids) especially when eating or drinking citrus products at the same time.
* Children and adults may be exposed to small amounts of aluminum from vaccinations.
* Very little enters your body from aluminum cooking utensils."
Please tell me where I am being a 'Smart Alex'? I am, as you mentioned, just trying to provide info for the open-minded. Mine, however, is based in science.
This is a very important consideration for a new brewer. Do I need to spend the extra bucks on that stainless steel kettle or can I use my turkey fryer? If you feel I am being a jerk by providing acurate information rather than conjecture, I apologize, but that was not my intent.
abracadabra
Well-Known Member
jjd said:
Not directed at you. I don't have a problem with people who disagree with me.
It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable. And I certainlly don't have all the answers nor do I claim to.
Aluminum is one of the least toxic metals It however is not Non Toxic
http://www.scorecard.org/chemical-profiles/hazard-indicators.tcl?edf_substance_id=1344-28-1
more
I misspelled BAUXITE
alumina (əlū'mĭnə
or aluminum oxide, Al2O3, chemical compound with m.p. about 2,000°C and sp. gr. about 4.0. It is insoluble in water and organic liquids and very slightly soluble in strong acids and alkalies.
Alumina occurs in two crystalline forms. Alpha alumina is composed of colorless hexagonal crystals with the properties given above; gamma alumina is composed of minute colorless cubic crystals with sp. gr. about 3.6 that are transformed to the alpha form at high temperatures. Alumina powder is formed by crushing crystalline alumina; it is white when pure. Alumina is widely distributed in nature. Combined with silica and other minerals it occurs in clays, feldspars, and micas. It is the major component of bauxite and occurs in an almost pure form as corundum. Alumina is commercially important. A major use is in the production of aluminum metal. It is also used for abrasives; corundum and emery are widely used, as are artificially prepared alumina abrasives. Trade names for alumina abrasives include Alundum and Aloxite. Alumina is also used in ceramics, in pigments, and in the manufacture of chemicals. Clays containing alumina are used in porcelain, pottery, and bricks. Pure alumina is used in making crucibles and other refractory apparatus. Hydrated alumina is used in mordant dyeing to make lake pigments; it is also used in glassmaking, in cosmetics, and in medicine as an antacid.
here's the web site for the above
http://www.answers.com/topic/aluminium-oxide
The important part to remember : very slightly soluble in strong acids and alkalies.
we are not talking about cooking collards here
lostforatime
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't use that pot again. If you are going to use it fill it up with water and boil. If you can see oil on the top of the water, dump out and scrub. I know someone that had to do this 13 times in order to get all of the oil out. Good luck
nkonkie said:
Whew, good.
And a point of clarification, we aren't talking about cooking collard greens but we aren't talking about strong acids either.
Wort pHs in the 5's are pretty weak acids and aluminum tends to begin to solubalize at pHs around 4.5 and increase to a point where solubility actually decreases at very strongly acidic conditions. Coke, served in aluminum cans, tends to have pHs at 3.0 or less.
Darn it, I'm starting to insert my work into my brewing. I can't have that. Time for a beer.
Cheers.
abracadabra
Well-Known Member
brewman ! said:
DDT first is was a Boon to manking then a bane now they are making the case that it's not so bad after all and we should bring it back
Burn injuries put butter on it no don't put butter on it put ice on it no don't put ice on it yes do put ice on it
Just as in food, presentation is an important part too. When people look at ugly oxidized aluminum pots of a brewer or the nice shiny looking stainless steel of another brewer who are they going to think is serious and who will they think brews in the bathtub. Who are they going to think brews in clean sanitary conditions and who will they think brews in nasty unsanitary conditions.
I could go on & on but I'm bored with this.
EvilTOJ
Well-Known Member
I may have Alzheimer's, but at least I don't have Alzheimer's.
Restaurants use stainless steel for the durability factor ONLY. Do you really think they give a hoot about you getting Altzheimer's or not 50 years down the road?
Besides, if there was any kind of definative evidence that Aluminum contributed to the disease, don't you think the Government would have banned it's use by now?
Go ahead and use your Aluminum pot and enjoy your beer.
Besides, if there was any kind of definative evidence that Aluminum contributed to the disease, don't you think the Government would have banned it's use by now?
Go ahead and use your Aluminum pot and enjoy your beer.
OP
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Evan!
Well-Known Member
nkonkie said:
Sounds a bit...vain. No offense, but brewing is not like restaurant presentation. Yeah, if a friend happens to come down to you basement and see that you store your pots in raw sewage, he might think twice about drinking your beer...but really, dude, come on. If you make good beer, who in their right mind is gonna question what you're doing in the brewhouse, as long as it's not overtly disgusting? And correct me if I'm wrong, but who would consider tarnish on the inside of a kettle "overtly disgusting"? It's not as if you're a public brewpub where everyone is watching what you're doing. And even if they were...do you really think anyone, anyone, is gonna look at your aluminum pot and say "oh, look, the inside of his aluminum pot has a light gray tarnish...he must not be serious!" ?
You defy logic. This isn't a beauty contest. I keep my brewhouse clean, and I keep everything that touches my beer post-boil sanitized, religiously. But I don't do any of that in some vain attempt at impressing the friends who come down to see my brew op. I do it because I run a tight ship, and I like to make good beer.
No, no, the brewhouse is nothing like restaurant dish prep. Restaurant dish prep is the final product looking good. The parallel here is the finished beer. And as long as the finished beer is good (or great), I really don't think anyone is going to go traipsing down to your brewhouse and complain about the tarnish on the inside of your pot. I mean...come on!
abracadabra
Well-Known Member
Evan! said:
Just my opinion dude
How can you hope to be a real EAC if you don't take pride in your equipment.
I'm not trying to throw off on your stuff Evan and I feel differently about aluminum after reading the posts on this tread. I'm not quite as concerned about the health effects as I used to be.
I'm here to learn like most folks and want others opinions whether I take their advise or not.
That being said I don't regret going stainless
Think of it this way if you see a nice shiny good looking car and a beat up one which would you think was better maintained?
I know you have to maintain sanitary conditions but everyone doesn't know that
And I'm pretty sure you want your equipment to look nice or you probably wouldn't have scrubed your pot with most everyone advising you not to.
Like I said just my opinion but from what I read of this post you aren't the one with dingy looking pots.
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Evan!
Well-Known Member
nkonkie said:
Actually, I wasn't concerned about how my equipment looked, per se, but more about how it performed. I was most worried that tarnishing would have an effect on my beer...not whether someone would come down and see it. Hell, the bottom of my pots aren't exactly spotless. Do I care? Not a bit. I try to get as much out with PBW as I can, just so that no burned flavors get in my beer. But that's it.
As for the "shiny car" analogy...well...again, my brewing equipment isn't on display. I take my car out and drive it around. Lots and lots of people see it. That having been said, if I had a "homebrew" TV show and people were watching me do my thing, then I'd be a little more concerned with the appearance of my brew kettles. But as far as I can see, I don't think I'll be starring in any teevee shows any time soon.
The way I see it, I still haven't achieve true greatness with my finished product...you know, the beer. I have way, way too many things to concentrate on in order to make my beer better. Until I do that, I'm not really concerning myself with the shininess of my equipment. I keep it clean. I keep it sanitized. Anything beyond that...well...to go back to your car analogy, it'd be like those doofuses that keep everything under the car hood polished and sparkling. I keep my car clean...but not the engine parts.
i could care less what mine or any other persons equipment looks like. my question is - how good of a beer can you produce.
nkonkie nor any detractors of aluminum usage in brewing have yet to produce any scientific data to support their theories. and now i see that we've boiled the ox down to the "shiney presentation" argument. yet there is a ton of evidence that aluminum won't give you alz, nor is brewing with it going to give you an off taste, grow hair on your palms or make you go blind.
sure he points out as others that in high doses it is toxic. dude i can ingest too much water and kill myself. water being the life sustaining liquid that you can't do without. just about everything is toxic in high doses.
bump for page 8 :rockin:
nkonkie nor any detractors of aluminum usage in brewing have yet to produce any scientific data to support their theories. and now i see that we've boiled the ox down to the "shiney presentation" argument. yet there is a ton of evidence that aluminum won't give you alz, nor is brewing with it going to give you an off taste, grow hair on your palms or make you go blind.
sure he points out as others that in high doses it is toxic. dude i can ingest too much water and kill myself. water being the life sustaining liquid that you can't do without. just about everything is toxic in high doses.
bump for page 8 :rockin:
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Evan!
Well-Known Member
brewhead said:
Dude, I know...I've honestly never heard of someone being concerned about how shiny their kettle is. But, hey, at least nkonkle has listened to you guys a little---he said it himself that his mind has been changed about using aluminum. So, consider that a success, and I guess it can't hurt to let him save some face .
abracadabra
Well-Known Member
Hey guys
I was trying to pass along info I thought would help people including you Evan by pointing out to you that your kettle had oxidized when you asked what had happened
I am truly sorry that I bothered
I was trying to pass along info I thought would help people including you Evan by pointing out to you that your kettle had oxidized when you asked what had happened
I am truly sorry that I bothered
The old Aluminium topic is always a hot one.
YOU NEED TO MAKE YOUR OWN MIND UP.
Pointless bickering.
RDWHAHB.
Chill.
YOU NEED TO MAKE YOUR OWN MIND UP.
Pointless bickering.
RDWHAHB.
Chill.
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