Oxiclean and plastic

[worlddivides]

Just wanted to ask about this since there seems to be a lot of contradictory stuff all over. For the entire time I brewed in the US, I used PBW. I already thought it was a bit expensive in the US, but with it more than 10 times more expensive here, I never really considered it an option. Oxiclean seems to be the main thing people use as an alternative to PBW, so I've used that to clean my keg, my brew kettle, and a bunch of other things. However, Oxiclean specifically says "DO NOT use Oxiclean on plastic." But on the other hand, I've seen tons of posts of homebrewers saying they clean their plastic fermenters with Oxiclean. I'm not sure if they say this because ingesting Oxiclean could be really dangerous or because any of it could leach into plastic or what, but I was hoping to hear some opinions and useful info.

Also, it's odd that in the past I've so obsessively cleaned everything, but this time, I didn't even use any "cleaner" to clean my fermenter. I just washed it down thoroughly with water until everything visible was gone, then hit it with sanitizer and soaked it in that for a while. It felt odd and I considered using dishwashing solution, but I've always heard not to use that because it supposedly kills head retention (and homebrewers have claimed you can't completely get rid of all of it, so it will have an effect on head retention no matter what. That seems a little hard to belief, but I've been avoiding using it because so many people say it).

Lastly, do you guys take apart your keg posts and all parts and clean them every time or just every other brew? I'd imagine you at least clean the keg after each time a batch is gone, but I'd wonder whether you take it apart every time.

 

[corncob]

I do disassemble all the keg posts every time. I have always used oxyclean free and a couple drops of dish detergent plus a day or two soak to clean everything, which for me is mostly plastic. I rinse with a lot of warm water. I don't get infections and do have normal head retention.

I've never noticed the "do not use on plastic." I guess that's a little concerning, but hopefully a chemist will turn up in a minute to settle the nerves. The are a few on here and there are a few epic threads on cleaners as well.

 

[doug293cz]

Oxiclean free (unscented version) is just sodium percarbonate and sodium carbonate plus a surfactant and inert polymer. PBW contains sodium percarbonate, sodium carbonate, sodium metasilicate, sodium bicarbonate, tetrasodium pyrophosphate, and possibly a surfactant. If PBW is safe for plastic then so is Oxiclean.

Also, I take apart and clean my keg posts every time I clean my kegs. It's easy to do, and sometimes you find hop matter and other junk in the posts.

Brew on

 

[worlddivides]

Thanks, guys. Mainly what I've been looking for is reassurance. You two long-time homebrewers have already given me reassurance for Oxyclean, and Corncob has given me reassurance for dishwashing detergent. The thing is, I've used dishwashing detergent on TONS of things that aren't brewing equipment but that come in contact with the beers I make (such as the glass jars for making extracts using cacao nibs, vanilla beans, spices, etc.), and I've never had a beer low on head retention (except, of course, for super-sour, long-aged sour ales, which commercial versions also tend to have little to no head).

Also, glad to hear about the keg posts. I've been planning to take them apart each time, but I did want to hear whether that was the norm or not.

 

[worlddivides]

I've never noticed the "do not use on plastic." I guess that's a little concerning, but hopefully a chemist will turn up in a minute to settle the nerves. The are a few on here and there are a few epic threads on cleaners as well.

It's not something I saw on the Oxiclean packaging. It's something I saw in an online FAQ for Oxiclean where the question was "Can I use Oxiclean on plastic?" and the reply was something like "No. Please do not use Oxiclean on plastic." But it didn't have an explanation for why, whether it was just that Oxiclean isn't "designed" to clean plastic or whatever. Then again, I have seen answers on online FAQs for other products that were just wrong, so they might not be subject to review (or at least not to extensive review).

 

[Peebee]

... "DO NOT use Oxiclean on plastic."

Not something I've heard of either, but I use "generic" (unbranded) Sodium Percarbonate so it won't have such warnings.

I imagine it's a warning for the general public? We (as brewers) generally use only "thermoplastics" "softer" plastic, e.g. PVC pipes, will not "glue" together, which would be unaffected. There is also "thermo-setting" "hard(er)" plastic, e.g. ABS pipes, are "glued" together, plastics that could perhaps be damaged? When dealing with the "general public" you don't recite such "complicated" differences, just say "plastic" and let people think "all plastic".

Here's an illustration! The UK discourages oil based paints (because of environmentally damaging fumes). So, paints are usually water-based containing PVA plastic. Water-based paint is a pain in the bum 'cos you can't easily strip it with the paint strippers we're used to. I wash my brewing kit upstairs (including plastic), using an "oxy" cleaner (Sodium Percarbonate), run up-and-down stairs with wet hands (wet with "oxy" cleaner), and ...

... paint-stripper!

The handrail fittings are factory-painted in oil-based/"enamel" paints. And totally resistant.


Conclusion: Don't worry about "oxy" cleaners damaging your plastic bucket!

Oxiclean free (unscented version) is just sodium percarbonate and sodium carbonate plus a surfactant and inert polymer. PBW contains sodium percarbonate, sodium carbonate, sodium metasilicate, sodium bicarbonate, tetrasodium pyrophosphate, and possibly a surfactant. ...

There go ... for the worried PBW users. Sodium Metasilicate is a powerful degreaser BTW, that is used instead of the environmentally disasterous Trisodium Phosphate ... but Tetrasodium Pyrophosphate!!!!!

Okay? It's for something different and perhaps isn't Trisodium Phosphate on steroids! Still, it doesn't half make "Trisodium Phosphate" sound a bit pathetic.

Interesting (?) side fact (brewing related ... roughly!) that I came across very recently: "Phosphate" and "Silicate" (think "sand") seem worlds apart? I didn't even think "silicate" could be soluble. But they are both anions that contribute Alkalinity! ("Carbonate/Bicarbonate" is just the commonest by far). Perhaps everyone here knows and I'm showing my ignorance? Just an "interesting" fact to share ... I do NOT recommend using "water glass" or toothpaste to adjust alkalinity in your mash!

[EDIT: Another "side-fact": Don't clean you "Tilt" hydrometer in "oxy" type cleaner. Or most other floaty hydrometer thingies. The "oxy" can damage the shell. Except for RAPT "Pills", and they gloat that their hydrometer is made of better stuff (they're just not as good for other reasons ).]

[EDIT2: Remove "Thermosetting" and "Thermoplastic" references 'cos I was getting it wrong! See later posts.]

 

[corncob]

The was a recent thread on here about the kegland pet kegs in which a guy from kegland cautioned against the use of pbw on pet for an extended soak. The sodium metasilicate pretty readily causes crazing and cracking, apparently.

Oxyclean didn't have that ingredient, which is one reason people prefer pbw.

Personally, I find that my stuff just doesn't get that dirty, I guess.

 

[worlddivides]

Personally, I find that my stuff just doesn't get that dirty, I guess.

Then why soak it for a day or two? (which is what I see most people saying how long they soak their brewing equipment in PBW or Oxiclean) I think the longest I've ever soaked a kettle was 1 hour and the longest I've soaked a fermenter was 2-3 hours. And those were both cases where there was some particulate matter that had hardened to the point where I couldn't get it off normally. In my most recent brew, I used Oxiclean on the kettle and got it sparkling clean with only about 20-30 minutes of soaking and I didn't even use anything other than water to clean my fermenter (though followed up by StellarSan sanitizer solution, which I soaked it in for 15-20 minutes) and it looks very clean to me. Maybe I'm supposed to use Oxiclean or PBW for a relatively clean brew like that to hopefully get rid of anything I can't see? But even then, why days of soaking?

Personally I'm thinking I might just clean my fermenter with dishwashing solution since that seems the easiest solution, especially if there's nothing really difficult to get rid of (which then I'd probably want to use Oxiclean) and if it doesn't actually hurt head retention as so many online claim it does.

 

[Brewdog80]

A couple of points from above. Pvc and Abs are BOTH thermoplastic compounds. If heat will deform a plastic, it is THERMO i.e. Heat deforming plastic. A thermoset plastic is melamine or urea and it sets permanently when heat is applied. It will degrade when heated but not deform or become plastic...
Soaking metal parts is worthless unless you have hard sediments but just use scrubber as just soaking doesn't get it all..... and really, unless you are dry hopping, taking apart keg valves often only leads to the need to replace the parts sooner.... and I've eliminated as much plastic material as possible. Ferment in SS ....

 

[Peebee]

Then why soak it for a day or two?

Won't do any harm (as long as the item is unaffected by highly alkaline solutions!).

But you are right ... the percarbonate decomposes and has gone in two or three hours. It decomposes to "washing soda" (sodium carbonate) which is used as a cleaning compound in itself. But the other item it decomposes to it hydrogen peroxide. And it decomposes further into "free radicals". And any muck that thinks it's safely stuck on, thinks twice when a bunch of these fizzy so-soes get at them.

Do remember this happens on a scale you can't see! You can't see bacteria, etc., and you usually can't see the dirt it hides under.

Hydrogen Peroxide will also disrupt cells, and is a very effective steriliser (more so than bleach). But perhaps not at the concentration percarbonate kicks out (although you can use percarbonate at much higher levels if you want to be dangerous). I'm messing with hydrogen peroxide as a "no-rinse" sanitiser, but it has disadvantages: It looks, smells and probably tastes, exactly like water. You don't know it's there until you do something ... I put some down my sink, when it came in contact with fatty grime it erupted into fizzing bubbles! It doesn't care if it's a nasty bug, or your lilywhite skin cells ... it'll dive into the attack (in the UK they've stopped using it in NHS - health - centres ... it's more hazardous than bleach). If it gets in your eyes ...

I'll keep working with it. Get the strength down to 3-4%. Sort out some indication that it's there! Hydrogen Peroxide also has another use ... oxidiser in rocket fuel! And loony bomb making! Hence concentrations you can buy are quite low (you don't want them higher!).

 

[Peebee]

A couple of points from above. Pvc and Abs are BOTH thermoplastic compounds. If heat will deform a plastic, it is THERMO i.e. Heat deforming plastic. A thermoset plastic is melamine or urea and it sets permanently when heat is applied. It will degrade when heated but not deform or become plastic. ...

Yeap, hence my prolific use of quotation marks. My posts get long enough without trying any more explaining. ABS does seem to be half-and-half (you can "glue" it)? But thanks for making the clarifications

[EDIT: But ... I was wrong! So, I've hopefully edited out the misdemeanors.]

 

[worlddivides]

Don't get me wrong. I've soaked brewing equipment for an hour or two plenty of times, but I think three hours really is the longest I've ever soaked anything and several days is just something I don't get. And from what I've read and heard, there doesn't seem to be any real reason to do it that long other than you might be too busy with other stuff to get to removing it and it's not going to hurt anything by soaking it.

 

[James Silver]

I think that the Oxiclean warning is put out there in an over abundance of caution. As mentioned in an earlier post Oxiclen aka sodium percarbonate will hydrolyze in water and break down into sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide. Hydrogen peroxide being a very strong oxidizer can react with plastisizers in plastics causing embrittlement. This would mainly be a concern for flexible parts like tubing and gasket materials. That said, as long as exposure times aren’t excessive I wouldn’t be all that concerned. With more rigid plastics like PET and ABS used in some fermentation equipment I really wouldn’t be worried about it.

 

[hotbeer]

I never have soaked my beer making equipment for a day or two. I rinse it off when I'm through with it. Let it dry, and then come brewing day and bottling day, I sanitize it, let drain and use it.

There has never been a time with things were filthy with clingy stuff that I could get off with a wipe of a brush or dishcloth.

The only time I've soaked anything for beer longer than 1 - 2 hours is when I got some bottles from the tavern, and put them in a bucket with laundry detergent and let them soak till the next day to get the labels and adhesive nice and soft.

PBW, IMO is really for those that need to clean their entire brew house including floors, walls and ceiling. That'd ruin my kitchen.

Oxyclean hasn't seemed to ruin any of my plastic stuff. Even a clear spray bottle of it I mix up every now and then.

I like the idea another posed, that if Oxyclean made a statement about it, it was just the it is not made to clean stains in plastic.

 

[corncob]

"loony bomb"

Damn...

 

[fluketamer]

its hard not to respond to this thread, a lot of us use and swear by oxyclean free. and a lot of use plastic but as satred above most of us use PET which i think is fine with oxyclean.

from kegland:

"Just to be specific it's not so much the "sodium percarbonate" itself as this particular chemical is fine. The issues is that many of the formulations that use Sodium Percarbonate also use an additional agent called "sodium metasilicate". Sodium Metasilicate is the specific ingredient that is the issue.

If you use just sodium percarbonate then you can leave that in the tank indefinitely but sodium metasilicate degrade PET and also many other plastics too especially when in contact for extended periods. So any product that contains sodium metasilicate we would recommend contact time of 15min or less.

To be honest after more than 15min there is really no point to use these types of oxidizing cleaners as they they are mostly decomposed already after 15 min so you are not really getting any benefit from a cleaning point of view to leave the cleaner in for longer than this anyway."

i think oxyclean is just percarbonate definately no metasilicate. so it should be fine on plastic (at least PET plastic)

 

[corncob]

Why do people soak so long? I have no idea, and I always do. This is from 15 minutes ago:

That krausen ring is the worst I can get. I did two fermentations in a row in that guy without cleaning, then served the second beer from the fermenter for 2-3 weeks. That's one squirt of dish detergent and about 2tbsp of oxyclean free in 8gal. We'll see how long it really takes....

 

[ncbrewer]

[EDIT: Another "side-fact": Don't clean you "Tilt" hydrometer in "oxy" type cleaner. Or most other floaty hydrometer thingies. The "oxy" can damage the shell. Except for RAPT "Pills", and they gloat that their hydrometer is made of better stuff (they're just not as good for other reasons ).]

I'm guessing you're not talking about a standard glass hydrometer - correct?

 

[fluketamer]

I'm guessing you're not talking about a standard glass hydrometer - correct?

no he means the plastic encapsulated electronic ones. like tilt rapt or ispindel.

Why do people soak so long? I have no idea, and I always do. This is from 15 minutes ago:
View attachment 857239
That krausen ring is the worst I can get. I did two fermentations in a row in that guy without cleaning, then served the second beer from the fermenter for 2-3 weeks. That's one squirt of dish detergent and about 2tbsp of oxyclean free in 8gal. We'll see how long it really takes....

im interested to know how long that soak takes also. when i ferment and seve in the oxebars i get a nice dried up kreusen ring like that. last time it took a pbw rinse and an a few hours oxyclean soak but i suspect the soak would have been enough

 

[corncob]

Two hours, and it looks like we're nearly there. The gunk might all be soft enough to rinse off by now, but I'm still soaking.

 

[corncob]

It's pushing 4 hours and I'm pretty sure that if I rinsed aggressively now, , I would have a clean fermenter. But I'm going to let it sit overnight anyway.

I think the mystery is solved: people soak overnight because the cost is zero and the benefit might be a clean vessel that would otherwise have a little something still hanging on.

 

[worlddivides]

I thought it might be something like that. I'll also add that it's a lot easier to clean a plastic bucket or Spiedel-style plastic fermenter than a glass or plastic carboy (largely due to the carboy having such a tiny opening which requires you to use a brush, and I've always found those brushes hard to use). And I'll also say that the worst krausen rings I ever got were always back when I used glass carboys, though I was able to get them to dissolve within 1-3 hours in PBW dissolved in warm to slightly hot water.

But if you don't know if it'll take 20 minutes, 60 minutes, 2 hours, or 3 hours, I guess it might be easier to just wait until the next day.


EDIT: Soaked the fermenter in Oxiclean for 90 minutes and the keg in Oxiclean for 120 minutes. One thing I do wonder is just how much water to use to rinse after dumping out the Oxiclean. I've done 3 rinses so far, but I feel like it's a pretty excessive use of water, so if just 1 rinse is fine, I'd want to switch to that. I do want to make sure all the Oxiclean is gone, though. With PBW, I only rinsed the fermenter, kettle, etc. 1 time with water and no more than that. For some reason, in my head "PBW = safe, but Oxiclean = potentially dangerous."

 

[Peebee]

A couple of points from above. Pvc and Abs are BOTH thermoplastic compounds. If heat will deform a plastic, it is THERMO i.e. Heat deforming plastic. A thermoset plastic is melamine or urea and it sets permanently when heat is applied. It will degrade when heated but not deform or become plastic...

I shouldn't have even mentioned that subject! Some deep seated "worm" from my early school days (over half a century ago). Sorry.

I was trying to make a comparison of plastic most understood ... ABS and PVC are common pipe materials for households, but aren't compatible (you glue one, the other won't glue so must use O-ring seals). But "gluing" is not a division 'tween thermoset and thermoplastic.

I'm in disgrace ... I'll go stand in this corner for a while ...





But: The "misinformation" I was passing on was to do with the hazards of using Percarbonate for cleaning. Seems it wasn't Percarbonate, but Metasilicate added to the cleaning compound (percarbonate) as an inorganic (such as machine oils used during manufacture) grease remover. It's found in PBW (not in Oxiclean Free but some posts seem to be mixing the two brands up?). But all the worry was being aimed at PET containers, whereas I was worried by electronic floaty hydrometers such as "Tilts" (polycarbonate shell).

Tilt seemed to have changed their advice from percarbonate generally, to ...

From Tilt Hydrometer Web site:

Q. How do I sanitize and/or clean my Tilt?

A. The polycarbonate container and washers/o-rings are safe with StarSan, which is our recommended sanitizer. Use warm water and dish soap for cleaning. Do not use a scrubber or soak in PBW for more than a few hours, this can cause hairline cracks in the polycarbonate.

"PBW" again! And the suggestion of people soaking them for hours! So, the hairline cracks are caused by the Metasilicate not Percarbonate? That's a relief. I'll use Percarbonate to clean my Tilts again (I use "generic" pure Percarbonate). And I won't soak more than 15 minutes anyway (if that!). I was never happy cleaning the Tilt in soap.

 

[mashdar]

PBW is technically superior (the best kind of superior). But I switched to oxiclean free a long time ago because it seems adequate for my uses, and I can buy it at the grocery.

For equipment I can get a hand in, I use soap and a soft rag. No fancy stuff needed. Occasionally I nuke it for added measure.

The lids etc that have complex surfaces get oxiclean every time. And gaskets get removed and individually cleaned. (Wth is up with the fermzilla lid geometry? Honeycomb on the outside, please.)

I used to soak for 24 hours, but per input on HBT, I just do a few hours now and it's been fine.

 

[corncob]

As far as the volume of rinse water used:

I am pretty sure it's the number of rinses rather than the volume of each that does the work. Consider my fermzilla (in the photo) that holds 8 gallons. Once you've dumped the soak water and done a couple of very small (1 quart?) rinses to get the foam out, you are working on diluting what's left clinging to the walls down to an acceptable level, right?

The actual volume of the film is down in the neighborhood of a few tablespoons, so imagine doing a rinse by adding, shaking (to thoroughly mix) and pouring out 1 gallon of rinse water. Every time you do that you are leaving a couple of tablespoons clinging to the walls, but what was the before has been diluted by approximately the ratio of 4tbsp : 1gal, or about 64. Do that three times (because we are all trinitarians here) and you're left with 10^-6 of the amount of non-rinse-water material you had clinging to the walls in the first place (and that wasn't much). You've used less than half the volume of the container to get it done.

At that point, the mathematician will break out in cold sweats, but the engineer will move on to the next cleaning task.

 

[hotbeer]

If the stuff isn't allowed dry on the sides after the contents are emptied the fermenter, then it isn't hard at all to get off with just a good rinse and a swipe with a brush, rag or bare hand. Even that crud that has been above the liquid level in the FV for weeks is still soft from the humidity inside the FV.

Just don't let your fermenter and other things go unattended very long after bottling or kegging till the crud dries.

PBW is the stuff with sodium metasilicate that Kegland claimed harmed PET.

https://fivestarchemicals.com/mwdownloads/download/link/id/1572

Oxyclean Free does not contain any sodium metasilicate.

https://chemmanagement.ehs.com/9/947674d3-d158-49c3-b902-52ef45099bc9/pdf/XNS3PC

Still, you don't need either if you just rinse well with water and maybe the dish detergent of your choice. Then sanitize with your favorite sanitizer just before use. At least for those that are small time home brewer's working in a space shared for cooking or other things.

 

[kevin58]

I've used Oxiclean to clean all of my equipment for a dozen or more years including plastic with zero issues.

 

[ncbrewer]

from kegland:

"Just to be specific it's not so much the "sodium percarbonate" itself as this particular chemical is fine. The issues is that many of the formulations that use Sodium Percarbonate also use an additional agent called "sodium metasilicate". Sodium Metasilicate is the specific ingredient that is the issue.

If you use just sodium percarbonate then you can leave that in the tank indefinitely but sodium metasilicate degrade PET and also many other plastics too especially when in contact for extended periods. So any product that contains sodium metasilicate we would recommend contact time of 15min or less.

This is very worrisome to me. I looked through many articles about cleaning, also How to Brew, E4 - none of these have any such caution about sodium metasilicate. I would love to find some other source with a discussion about it, but I haven't been able to. To make it even more of an unknown, the Kegland info doesn't specify which other plastics are damaged. I just switched over to homemade PBW for cleaning, but after seeing the information from Kegland I'm going back to Oxiclean.

 

[mashdar]

It sounds like sodium metasilicate can be used as a catalyst in PET alcoholysis/glycolysis, based on a quick googlin'. Results likely depend on what else is present.

 

[Peebee]

This is very worrisome to me. ...

Absolutely! Find other credible sources of information. There are a few links above for starters. People shouldn't automatically trust what's written by random unknown people on online public domain forums and "social media". It's a scourge of modern living.

Take me for instance: Information here suggests I live many thousands of miles away in another country. Am I really trustworthy? I might be a crazed, mentally handicapped loony who's had a significant bang on the head (... hang on; I am!).


But in this case, it might be difficult to find more information. Because the main reason for the issue is not a particular brand, or even a particular chemical ... it's our illogical inability to read instructions and invent undocumented methods of using a product! (Me included!). Soaking for hours (days even) on end?

It's well-known Sodium Percarbonate breaks down to Sodium Carbonate and Hydrogen Peroxide, and the Hydrogen Peroxide does the active "scrubbing". And that breakdown occurs in minutes (I said earlier a couple of hours, but I use coated prills which may also extend the decomposition time?). You can witness the breakdown because of all the gas (oxygen) evolved, although the oxygen is the end-result, indicating that active cleaning/sanitising was occurring in the intermediate stages before oxygen formation (if you see bubbles, the job for the Percarbonate forming the bubbles is done; when it stops forming bubbles, it's job is all done). The left-over is Sodium Carbonate BTW (Washing Soda), also a cleaner, but relies on a bit of "elbow-grease".

So, why do we soak things in it for hours/days on end?

Sodium Metasilicate is the accused bogeyman in this. But there are manufacturer reports suggesting restricting contact time to 15 minutes will be okay for PET (and Polycarbonate). PBW is the only cleaner named as containing Metasilicate (the environment doesn't need more destructive Trisodium Phosphate back in its place) and it could be reserved for cleaning new metal items (coated in inorganic machining oil).

So, why do we soak things longer in it?