Overcarbonation/bottle foaming intensly

[Colizza]

Brewed a batch of East Coast IPA using WLP007 (dry english ale yeast)
OG was 1.058
FG was 1.015

I bottled at 2.3volumes using 102 grams of table sugar (sucrose) for a 5 gallon batch.

It was nicely carbonated and had no problems whatsoever.

2-3months later, some bottles were at some friends house and had been sitting at room temp (68-70deg) all this time. Both my friends reported that when they opened the bottle, foam gushed all over the place.

Had a similar experience with the same yeast (bottles were foaming pretty hard, o had to transfer in a glass pretty quickly to save the counters). This previous brew had a FG of 1.016.

Any explanation?

 

[PeteNMA]

How long did they get chilled before opening?

 

[Colizza]

One of them was not chilled, i jave no idea about the other one

 

[PeteNMA]

Bottle conditioned beers need to be chilled so that the CO2 dissolves in the beer properly

 

[The_Bishop]

The whole 'bottle conditioned beer needs to be refrigerated' thing is a lot of bunk. I've had plenty of bottle conditioned beer at cellar temps, no gushing.

The more likely scenario is that the beer was not finished fermenting, so it overcarbonated in the bottles. Another possibility is that the bottles are not as clean as you think, and a few of them got infected.

 

[PeteNMA]

You must have a different set of laws of physics where you live then

 

[PeteNMA]

In all seriousness, this is not a single factor problem. How good are you at keeping particulate junk out of your bottled beer. If you have stuff floating around to act as nucleation sites then your bottles will foam. If you are good at minimising yeast transfer into the bottles then this is less of an issue. This is just one potential scenario.

 

[Colizza]

Ok, i see, i like to think that the likely scenario is the incomplete fermentations.

Im really meticulous in my cleaning so i highly doubt its an infection.

I do have some hop residues and yeast that get transfered in the bottle. I dont cold crash nor add finning agents.

 

[alexacuna]

I drink room temp beers pretty often when i'm being impatient. My fridge has a good amount of beer in it right now, but my AG beers are pretty recent and I find myself sneaking one since they age in my bedroom closet.

No gushers from these, but I do have a few that i think were slightly over-primed.

 

[The_Bishop]

You must have a different set of laws of physics where you live then

No, just a working understanding of gas solubility. When beer is bottle conditioned, the gas isn't all hanging out in the 1" of neck dead space. It's dissolved into the beer until the pressure is at equilibrium in the open space and the liquid.

Gushing bottles, 99% of the time, come down to a few factors:

1. Beer wasn't finished fermenting when bottled.

2. Bottles weren't clean/sanitary enough leading to a bottle based infection.

3. Too much priming sugar, or if some bottles are overcarbed and some undercarbed, the priming solution wasn't properly combined with the beer.

4. Too much 'junk' in the bottles. Keep the trub out of your bottling bucket, and don't bottle until the beer has dropped mostly clear.

Primer on "Henry's Law": http://www.800mainstreet.com/9/0009-006-henry.html

 

[MarshmallowBlue]

were they stored sideways?

 

[PeteNMA]

No, just a working understanding of gas solubility. When beer is bottle conditioned, the gas isn't all hanging out in the 1" of neck dead space. It's dissolved into the beer until the pressure is at equilibrium in the open space and the liquid.

Solubility of gas in liquid is temperature and pressure dependent. Check out any of the keg pressure/temperature/CO2 level charts.

You will get more gas dissolved in the beer when its under pressure in the bottle than the liquid can keep dissolved at the same temperature when not under pressure. Just because you reach equilibrium under one set of conditions it does not mean that it will stay in equilibrium when you change those conditions.

The short and tall of that is just because you can dissolve 2.5 vols of CO2 in the beer when its in the bottle at RT does not mean that it will stay in solution at RT when its not under pressure.

Again this is basic physics. And funnily enough exactly what that primer tells you as well.

 

[The_Bishop]

2.5 volumes of CO2 is 2.5 volumes of CO2. Temperature is irrelevant in what we are talking about. A bottle is a closed environment. The CO2 does not magically become 3.0 volumes because it's warmer.

When the pressure in the bottle is released there will be some breakout, regardless of the temperature. If you truly have only 2.5 volumes of CO2, and the beer was not bottled prior to fermentation being complete *or* overprimed, it should not gush at room temperature.

I help out in a homebrew shop that also runs brewing classes. We have bottled literally hundreds of batches of beer with customers. Most of the time, the brewers leave a sample bottle behind. We leave them at room temperature for about two weeks prior to opening them at room temperature for sampling. Guess what? Not a single gusher.

This is getting off topic, so I'm done here. Believe what you will.

 

[Colizza]

The more you talk, the more i believe the problem is oriented towards unfinished fermentation, which is something i'll have to explore and read about concerning WLP007. Which seems to stop fermenting almost when final gravity is reached.

 

[PeteNMA]

2.5 volumes of CO2 is 2.5 volumes of CO2. Temperature is irrelevant in what we are talking about. A bottle is a closed environment. The CO2 does not magically become 3.0 volumes because it's warmer.

When the pressure in the bottle is released there will be some breakout, regardless of the temperature. If you truly have only 2.5 volumes of CO2, and the beer was not bottled prior to fermentation being complete *or* overprimed, it should not gush at room temperature.

I help out in a homebrew shop that also runs brewing classes. We have bottled literally hundreds of batches of beer with customers. Most of the time, the brewers leave a sample bottle behind. We leave them at room temperature for about two weeks prior to opening them at room temperature for sampling. Guess what? Not a single gusher.

This is getting off topic, so I'm done here. Believe what you will.

Why didn't you read what I actually wrote?

 

[Colizza]

I read what you wrote, dont be so insecure or judjemental. Its always fun to be talked to like an imbecile

Your argument is valid, it is what i thought all along, no argument made more sense. I just felt that my last comment would be straight forward enough so that everybody could understand after having read all the comments and answers, yours was the most accurate to my particular problem! Thanks everybody for all the answers. They will help me troubleshoot problems in the future!

 

[PeteNMA]

I wasn't replying to you, rather to The Bishop. Forums don't do a great job of guiding conversation I'm afraid.

Another reason that chilling the bottles can help is that it tends to make stuff drop out of suspension. If you've got yeast, hops or other debris floating in the beer then these provide nucleation sites and help the CO2 come out of solution. A day or two in the fridge and stuff settles out to the bottom of the bottle.

WRT finishing fermentation, can you tell us more about what you're brewing, how you are monitoring your fermentation and your yeast handling and treatment practices?

Some strains certainly do require more attention than others, typically British yeasts are pretty flocculant, which can lead to them falling out of suspension early (WLP002 is notorious for this) and when you come to bottle the priming sugar gets the yeast started again and you get bottle bombs.

WLP007 is much easier in this regard, provided you are pitching a decent amount of healthy yeast it ferments out nicely and completely. If you have the ability, it does help to raise the temperature towards the end of fermentation to speed up it finishing out. The thing to know about WLP007 is that it floccs out like peanut butter, but you generally drop another 3-6 points over about the same number of days after it looks like its done. If you are taking regular gravity readings you'll see this happening.

 

[Colizza]

Wow! My bad, i had misread everything! No hard feelings!
Regarding my yeast treatment, i lost my information sheet about this beer, but i probably fermented this one at 68deg a along the way. Next time, ill these English ale yeast a little more like belgian ale yeast (attenuation wise).

For belgian, i start in the low-mid 60's and rise it by 2-3 degrees a day until it reaches mid 80's

For the english ale yeast, ill probably start at 60deg and rise it at 70deg (ill reach 70deg after 5 days to avoid too much yeasty flavors) and i almost might agitate the yeast after 2 weeks to
Wake it up a little bit.
Any other suggestion to achieve full attenuation without having an ester bomb?

 

[PeteNMA]

For wlp007 I tend to pitch at 64f, hold for 48 hours then let it free rise to 70-72. I've found that I get more consistent attenuation with good oxygenation of the wort although it's not necessary.

Make sure you are monitoring your final gravity over about a week. Like I said WLP007 looks like it's finished, but then drops another couple of points at the end. You need to make sure that you pay attention to sample temperature, as this is when the odd point of difference matters.

Priming and bottle conditioning only adds an additional 0.05 gravity points, so if you are bottling something which still has 0.02-0.04 to go before its finished then sooner or later you'll have bottle bombs

However that's not particularly likely with 007 unless you really rushed it through fermentation and into bottles which it doesn't sound like you're doing.

Are you using extract or all grain? From your FGs it looks like extract. Do you cold crash in the fermenter? Use kettle finings? Gelatin in primary?

 

[The_Bishop]

Along the lines of what Pete's saying, once the first 2-3 days of high krausen fermentation are gone, I generally start ramping up the temps into the 68-70 degree range to help the yeast finish their job. The 'off flavor' generation stage is in the beginning, when the yeast are primarily replicating themselves.

 

[PeteNMA]

With something like cal ale yeast the ramping is not usually necessary. But for British yeast it really helps with consistent finishing

 

[Colizza]

For wlp007 I tend to pitch at 64f, hold for 48 hours then let it free rise to 70-72. I've found that I get more consistent attenuation with good oxygenation of the wort although it's not necessary.

Make sure you are monitoring your final gravity over about a week. Like I said WLP007 looks like it's finished, but then drops another couple of points at the end. You need to make sure that you pay attention to sample temperature, as this is when the odd point of difference matters.

Priming and bottle conditioning only adds an additional 0.05 gravity points, so if you are bottling something which still has 0.02-0.04 to go before its finished then sooner or later you'll have bottle bombs

However that's not particularly likely with 007 unless you really rushed it through fermentation and into bottles which it doesn't sound like you're doing.

Are you using extract or all grain? From your FGs it looks like extract. Do you cold crash in the fermenter? Use kettle finings? Gelatin in primary?

I didnt particularly rushed the fermentation. I brew all grain. I just bought an oxygenation kit, which will probably help a lot. It is also good to know that this yeast has that certain behavior. I did not cold crash this batch, neither did i use kettle finings or gelatin.

 

[Colizza]

For Bishops comment, I will definitly do that for my next batch

 

[Colizza]

I wasn't replying to you, rather to The Bishop. Forums don't do a great job of guiding conversation I'm afraid.

Another reason that chilling the bottles can help is that it tends to make stuff drop out of suspension. If you've got yeast, hops or other debris floating in the beer then these provide nucleation sites and help the CO2 come out of solution. A day or two in the fridge and stuff settles out to the bottom of the bottle.

WRT finishing fermentation, can you tell us more about what you're brewing, how you are monitoring your fermentation and your yeast handling and treatment practices?

Some strains certainly do require more attention than others, typically British yeasts are pretty flocculant, which can lead to them falling out of suspension early (WLP002 is notorious for this) and when you come to bottle the priming sugar gets the yeast started again and you get bottle bombs.

WLP007 is much easier in this regard, provided you are pitching a decent amount of healthy yeast it ferments out nicely and completely. If you have the ability, it does help to raise the temperature towards the end of fermentation to speed up it finishing out. The thing to know about WLP007 is that it floccs out like peanut butter, but you generally drop another 3-6 points over about the same number of days after it looks like its done. If you are taking regular gravity readings you'll see this happening.

For my yeast handling, i always do a starter a day ahead and always pitch a little more yeast the exact recommend pitch around 10billion more cells). I let it on the stir plate for 24jrs, pitch the starter. I use the swamp cooling technique for the first days of fermentation and good pretty good at being able to get my carboy at 64 and keeping it at this temp. Im also able to rise my temp by letting the towels dry a little bit. I monitor the temperature with a stck-on thermometer on the carboy. I have tested how exact were those themometers by comparing the temperature on the stick-on vs putting a sanitized thermometer inside the carboy for a quick reading. If the stick-on says 64-66, the rhermometer says 64 (the lower range of the stick-on).

 

[PeteNMA]

Cold crashing and gelatin in the fermenter helps minimise crud in the bottles which helps with stability.

If you're brewing all grain then those FGs seem a touch high unless your mashing pretty warm deliberately

 

[Colizza]

Nah, its really my knowledge and treatment of this yeast that made my FG too high (mashing at 154-152)

Also, I'm still confused how the residues in the bottle affect stability (talking carbonation wise)

 

[The_Bishop]

Extra 'stuff' in the bottle does two things:

1. Nucleation points. CO2 likes to have surfaces to help it break out of solution. The more 'stuff' there is, the more points there are to help it come out of solution.

2. It can have an effect on the beer's stability from a shelf life point of view.

 

[adixon3]

I had the same overcarbonation problem and could not understand why my beer was allways overcarbonated until i read this:

Green beer, i.e. beer that has finished fermenting and is ready for bottling, is saturated with carbon dioxide because it has had CO2 bubbling through it continuously during fermentation. This amount of CO2 can be estimated from the accompanying table. It shows that the CO2 level depends on the temperature (at which fermentation was completed) and explains why a sample taken from a secondary fermenter at 35 degF tastes much brighter than a sample from an ale fermenting at 68 degF. For the following example, we will assume primary/secondary fermentation finished at 65 degrees an initial 0.9 volumes CO2.

Fermentation Temp -> Vol of Co2
32 -> 1.7
35 -> 1.6
40 -> 1.45
45 -> 1.3
50 -> 1.2
55 -> 1.1
60 -> 1.0
65 -> 0.92
70 -> 0.85
75 -> 0.78



Solubility of CO2 in beer at atmospheric pressure

Determining the amount of priming sugar is based on the fact that adding 4 grams of sucrose (cane/beet/granulated sugar) per litre will ferment to give 1 volume of CO2:
4 g/l (1/2 oz/US gal) sucrose --> 1 vol. CO2

For our sample homebrew with a final 2.4 volumes CO2, we subtract the initial 0.9 vol. CO2 in the green beer to find that we need another 1.5 vol. CO2. This is achieved by adding 1.5 x 4 = 6 g/l (0.8 oz/US gall) priming sugar. It can be added directly to each bottle (4.5 g per 750 ml bottle) or by bulk priming the whole batch.

 

[Colizza]

Nice! I had never seen these charts before! Pretty good to know if your priming calculator f*** up

 

[PeteNMA]

The better priming calculators have a field for the beer temperature too.

 

[Colizza]

Yup, i use the northern brewer one