Outdoor bar Help

[timbudtwo]

I am by no means a skilled carpenter, but I do know how to use power tools, and I know a fair bit about building things out of wood. However, it extends to indoor structures likes desks and furniture. Nothing that could withstand the elements.

Most outdoor things you buy at the store are either made of metal and stone, or those that are built from wood are made like a deck, with spaced slats to allow dirt/water to pass through and not mingle.

I want to be able to build a bar like one of these:

I have a square patch of cement in my backyard that used to have a hot tub on it, but is currently vacant (with power access!) I want to build an L shaped bar out of wood, and perhaps tile it (I am thinking of this as an alternative to lacquer for weather protection.) It would have area underneath for a fridge and storage. I don't know if I would put any doors on it or leave it open. I just do not want to have it built and set up with spaced slats. How would I go about building something that could handle the rain and not rot and warp like crazy?

Thanks tons!

 

[BIGREDIOWAN]

Hmmmm, not a skilled craftsman mind you, but I would think it would all go into how you would seal the wood and what you would seal it with?

 

[brewmonk]

if completely flat, the groutlines in the tile will TRAP water not shed it.

You could go with HUGE tiles.

I, though, would pour a concrete countertop with overhangs, and a slight ( 1/4" per foot) grade.

hell, i'd prefer to roof it too, THAT will help.

best bet would be to seal the wood with epoxy (system 3, e.g,.). then, oilbased paint.

 

[rudu81]

Also, wood stain/protector does need to be reapplied at certain intervals depending on the usage. I agree with the concrete countertop and a roof.

 

[brewmonk]

that kind of epoxy is used on boats also. a hundred bucks for a gallon (2-part )is about right.
with paint to protect it from UV, it should last a long time.

make sure that wood parts are sitting on p/t "feet", and the grain wont let moisture wick UP.
up off the ground also lets you keep bugs out better.

 

[edmanster]

cover with a tarp when not in use

 

[superjunior]

Also, wood stain/protector does need to be reapplied at certain intervals depending on the usage. I agree with the concrete countertop and a roof.

another vote for a roof. my old house I had a gazebo built for the outdoor bar

 

[camus]

Stone (I would use soapstone, cheap, you could cut it yourself, will handle the elements) or sealed concrete countertop. You could go flat for either.

Cedar or doug fur for the base.

 

[VegasBrew]

Build the frame out of wood and skin it in ply wood/siding, pay someone a few bucks to stucko it cuz doing stucko sucks and top it with a concrete counter top. All out door proof materials.

VB

 

[timbudtwo]

if completely flat, the groutlines in the tile will TRAP water not shed it.

You could go with HUGE tiles.

I, though, would pour a concrete countertop with overhangs, and a slight ( 1/4" per foot) grade.

hell, i'd prefer to roof it too, THAT will help.

best bet would be to seal the wood with epoxy (system 3, e.g,.). then, oilbased paint.

I was thinking of putting some anchors on the edges of the cement and putting some posts and making a roof.

 

[timbudtwo]

Build the frame out of wood and skin it in ply wood/siding, pay someone a few bucks to stucko it cuz doing stucko sucks and top it with a concrete counter top. All out door proof materials.

VB

In regards to concrete top and the skinz. While skinning, do I skin the top of the frame where the cement will sit? Will I need to seal the wood underneath (the skin) where the cement sits (If it needs to be there) because cement will absorb some water. Also, I assume I would seal the cement?

 

[bengerman]

best bet would be to make the top out of something weather resistant (tile, stone, cement, etc) alternately, use marine-grade plywood and several coats of defthane.
for the sides, defthane again would work, or just a regular siding stain or exterior house paint (depending on the look you're going for)

all of these would have to be recoated periodically, depending on the weather where you live and what kind of roof, if any, you put over this beast.

additionally, and probably most importantly, don't have any wood-to-ground contact, unless it's pressure treated lumber. they make special metal posts to keep wood off concrete, buy some and use 'em.

 

[timbudtwo]

Okay, I am REALLY digging the idea of a cement countertop. I had previously read an instructable about it and it seemed rather daunting. However, after looking at 670x's concrete counter build, I love his pour in place and leave method!

Here is a picture:

Looks like all he did was put plywood down, put some edges on it, pour and smooth. Didn't even go through any steps to polish and beautify. I don't know if I would want the tiered bit to it, but taking that technique and making it L shaped doesn't seem terribly difficult. Then I could just box everything in with marine plywood and pressure treated 2x4's.
Did I over-simplify anything?

(link to 670x's thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/my-concrete-countertop-bar-build-141007/)

 

[VegasBrew]

In regards to concrete top and the skinz. While skinning, do I skin the top of the frame where the cement will sit? Will I need to seal the wood underneath (the skin) where the cement sits (If it needs to be there) because cement will absorb some water. Also, I assume I would seal the cement?

Most house exterior walls just use a partical board to sheet then a plastic sheeting called Tyvec, a wire mesh over that, then a skim coat of stucko then the final layer of stuco. I would frame a little beefier than normal because the stucko and concrete are heavy, you will need to put at least 3/4 plywood on as an underlayment for the concrete counter top. To make it water proof, paint any exposed wood with an epoxy paint that has a uv protecant added to it. Any part of the wood you think may get wet, paint it, the epoxy paint is tuff stuff, every automotive shop I have worked in as well as my own shop uses it on the floors and it is almost indestructible.

VB

P.S. You can get the paint in almost any color you want.

 

[sjvicker]

Then I could just box everything in with marine plywood and pressure treated 2x4's.
Did I over-simplify anything?

I'd either do a steel frame covered in corrugated metal or a brick frame and pour the concrete in place. From there you can either grind the concrete smooth or leave it rough, it doesn't get much more durable than that.

 

[timbudtwo]

I'd either do a steel frame covered in corrugated metal or a brick frame and pour the concrete in place. From there you can either grind the concrete smooth or leave it rough, it doesn't get much more durable than that.

That would be outside my scope of do-ability. Sorry. I have no masonry skills. I was thinking of building a pizza oven eventually, so maybe after that I would venture into bricklaying.

 

[timbudtwo]

see:
Notice at 58 seconds in this video they created a bull nose on the concrete counter by placing plywood below and putting in some kind of molding.

I have been reading about concrete counters and I was noticing some people put them right on plywood, while others put them onto cement board. What would your suggestions be?

 

[brewmonk]

don't bother with marine ply (I'm a cabinet maker with a wooden boat fetish - don't bother for this.) it's 150 bucks a sheet, and you are just going to be cementing or painting over it anyways, THAT will water seal it. put you money into the other supplies and roof, and send me a free case of beer with the savings.

also, NO you don't need a 'full' cabinet 'top' underneath the cement countertop,.although for the corner posts a 4x4 would *not* be out of the question with a 250 lb. top. just some good trim work around the skirt.

don't bother with tyvek either. one 1/2" of stucco can withstand hurricane winds driving horizontal rain and debris - look it up its ansi 903 or something. the tyvek will just NOT allow the stucco to bond to anything structural, other than the expanded steel (that you SHOULD use) and corner bracing.

[i've been reading up on this, i'm skim coating my cement-boarded, basement, brewroom with portland, lime, and fine sand.

 

[timbudtwo]

... and send me a free case of beer with the savings.

also, NO you don't need a 'full' cabinet 'top' underneath the cement countertop,.although for the corner posts a 4x4 would *not* be out of the question with a 250 lb. top. just some good trim work around the skirt.

don't bother with tyvek either. one 1/2" of stucco....

I probably wasn't going to go with the stucco. Either wood, or some kind of aluminum/metal siding if I really wanted to get decorative. I am a slut for corrugated steel and that would be def cool, but we will see. I really don't think I would need 4x4's if I am building the frame nice and strong from 2x4's, and then skinning with plywood. I have built aquarium stands, and you don't use anything that big even for 50 gallon aquariums. Heck, when I worked at an aquarium we had 300 gallon tanks sitting on 2x4 frames. If you think it is really that necessary, then it isn't too much trouble to stick 6 4x4 posts at the corners (L shaped so 6 corners,) just seems overkill from my experience (limited.)

But it is good to know that I don't need to worry about the underlay of the cement counter top. I'll just make a nice-ish bullnose and darken the thing up with some black pigment. Should be good. Boss approved it as a summer project .

And about the beer: I only make about a batch a month, if that. And it is split between two people. I would be willing to share if you came out to help build though! I'm not too far away, just a couple hundred miles down and a couple thousand left of you .

 

[greaper007]

Concrete block and stucco is an option, so is a wood frame with cement board and stucco or tiles. For a straight wood look, I'd probably go with something like redwood or white oak (not red, the USS Constitution was made out of white oak). I like the concrete counter top idea also, otherwise, I'm sure that with the popularity of outdoor kitchens these days there are a ton of counter top options.

Good luck, I want to tackle this exact same project this summer. Have you come up with any ideas for serving kegs outside besides a jockeybox cooler?

 

[timbudtwo]

Concrete block and stucco is an option, so is a wood frame with cement board and stucco or tiles. For a straight wood look, I'd probably go with something like redwood or white oak (not red, the USS Constitution was made out of white oak). I like the concrete counter top idea also, otherwise, I'm sure that with the popularity of outdoor kitchens these days there are a ton of counter top options.

Good luck, I want to tackle this exact same project this summer. Have you come up with any ideas for serving kegs outside besides a jockeybox cooler?

I have over 9000 projects going at the same time, so they get completed slowly. I am also in the process of making a kegerator. If I need it, I can just wheel it from the garage to the back of the house when people come over.

 

[MSweat]

As far as any exposed wood surfaces, I have had great results with Waterlox.
I have a garden bench made out of white oak I finished with Waterlox about three years ago and it still looks great. It sits in the yard uncovered year round.

 

[itsme6582]

Waterlox is great. I just helped my dad refinish a hardwood floor with it. We obviously didn't use the marine grade. The floor looks so good the whole house is scheduled to be refinished.

One Time Wood is another great product. Normal deck treatment should be reapplied yearly. One Time Wood is good for 7 years.

 

[bengerman]

Waterlox is great. I just helped my dad refinish a hardwood floor with it. We obviously didn't use the marine grade. The floor looks so good the whole house is scheduled to be refinished.

One Time Wood is another great product. Normal deck treatment should be reapplied yearly. One Time Wood is good for 7 years.

One Time is also ~$80/gallon

reapplying anually depends on where you are and what product you use. waterbased products are lucky to last 6 months here in the PNW, cheap oils are about that 1 year guideline, and good oils can go 2-3 years without reapplication. (of course, that's just talking about transparent/semi-trans)

semi-solid and solid stains can last much longer.

 

[LordUlrich]

If it were me, I would use treated lumber for anything outdoors. A product like a Thompson water seal for decks can make it look nice, and is only like $15 / gal, reapplied ever 1-2 years (what i get on a deck less frequent for surfaces not exposed to direct sunlight or frequent direct water, at-least in my part of the country). Treated lumber is not much more expensive than regular fir (or pine or whatever) and cheaper for some sizes, but it won't rot if something isn't sealed completely.

As far as using 2x4 or 4x4, if you use 4x4 you can get away with way fewer supports (It is a physics thing but a 4x4 is much more that 2x stronger than a 2x4 at these heights) and last I checked were not much more expensive than 2x4 in treated.

Also an FYI, concrete and cement are not the same, cement is one of the components in concrete, along with aggregate (included in most bags for the home store) and water (it stays in the final concrete, and provides allot of the actual strength).

 

[MSweat]

I'm leary of treated lumber.
http://www.epa.gov/oppad001/reregistration/cca/

 

[timbudtwo]

If it were me, I would use treated lumber for anything outdoors...

As far as using 2x4 or 4x4, if you use 4x4 you can get away with way fewer supports (It is a physics thing but a 4x4 is much more that 2x stronger than a 2x4 at these heights) and last I checked were not much more expensive than 2x4 in treated.

Also an FYI, concrete and cement are not the same...

There are going to be a fair amount of supports already because I am going to be framing it for cabinets and/or shelves. Once I get the plan more finalized then I will for sure see what I will do.

I looked back and I did see that I used cement and concrete interchangeably in some places. My fault.

I'm leary of treated lumber...

I don't like the idea of having a ton of pressure treated wood either, but I also don't like that living in northern California means you have termites automatically. If other alternatives were available I would be happier. And in reality, I will be closing a lot of this off and sealing it (I will probably seal prior to the build) I only really need to use the pressure treated stuff on the wood that comes in contact with the concrete.

 

[LordUlrich]

I'm leary of treated lumber.
http://www.epa.gov/oppad001/reregistration/cca/

Actually most treated lumber is not treated with CCA (arsenic) any longer, it is now a product called AC2 more formally ACQ. I would still not want to lick it or anything, but it is supposed to be much safer.

http://www.epa.gov/oppad001/reregistration/cca/acq.htm

Although i have no idea about termites, so obviously you need to take whatever appropriate countermeasures.

I looked back and I did see that I used cement and concrete interchangeably in some places. My fault

No problem, just a bit of a personal crusade to educate.

 

[bengerman]

i don't know about the termite-resistance of the new pressure treated lumber either, but there is a product called termin-8 that's supposed to make them not like it. find it at you local hardware store.

 

[camus]

I would go with cedar vs treated, it looks nice, doesn't warp as much, I hate working with treated. But you do pay a premium. Just IMO.

 

[brewmonk]

if you are really concerned with termites, and are bracing the schniznitz out of this, you may be able to get away with using steel studs in the design (strength would come from the ply skins - monocoque construction), maybe up to a third or half.

just another wacky thought sitting here, has anyone ever tried mixing borax right into the paint?

 

[timbudtwo]

just another wacky thought sitting here, has anyone ever tried mixing borax right into the paint?

While reading about the different treated woods I saw that one was borate based. I was wondering if you could do that, or put some boric acid in the paint? I will have to see if anyone else has done this.

 

[bengerman]

I would go with cedar vs treated, it looks nice, doesn't warp as much, I hate working with treated. But you do pay a premium. Just IMO.

cedar's better than pine or oak, but for direct ground contact there's no substitute for pressure treated. (if you do go with cedar, at least slap some copper coat on it.) Regular stud-grade 4x4s would work if you elevated them with galvanized or stainless steel brackets, but you would obviously still stain them for rain/UV resistance.

 

[bengerman]

While reading about the different treated woods I saw that one was borate based. I was wondering if you could do that, or put some boric acid in the paint? I will have to see if anyone else has done this.

sorry to double post, but i feel the need to point out that boric acid is not the same thing as borax.

 

[CABeerMaker]

I know it is a bit pricey but for weather and termites redwood is a great option.

 

[timbudtwo]

sorry to double post, but i feel the need to point out that boric acid is not the same thing as borax.

Which is why I specifically said "or." Borax and boric acid are common boron containing chemicals. While borax is known for its use in washing machines, boric acid is mostly known as something that kills insects.


From what I remember, redwood wasn't terrible. I haven't looked at prices in years, but when we were rebuilding my deck outside it was probably 2x the cost of pine. Has it gone up?