Organic vs. chemical fertilizer for hops

[crstevens15]

Sorry if this is redundant but I havent found too much solid info on fertilizers for hops.

Anyone have personal opinions experiences they could share on compost/manure etc. vs chemical fertilizers for hops?

Thanks.

Caleb

 

[Reno_eNVy]

I haven't had a TON of experience growing hops...

But Fox Farm organic soil is awesome. It's actually mostly earthworm castings. And then there's a myriad of Fox Farm nutrients (both liquid and soluble crystals) for keeping a balance.

The nice thing about that them is you can adjust the Phosphorus-Nitrogen-Potassium levels to help the plant focus on shoot growing, and then when it's big enough switch over to a ratio that favors flowering.

The stuff really is quite awesome.

 

[bigljd]

I'm a big fan of organics - stuff like Fox Farms is good stuff but a bit pricey and more intended for growing hops cousin plant (although I'm sure hops would love the stuff). There are lots of organic options out there that work great and can be found at Wmart, HD, Lowes. Miracle gro makes an organic fertilizer that is composted poultry manure that works good for early growth since it's high in Nitrogen. Fish derived fertilizers are great too for early growth. Sprinkle some bone meal around the crowns to add phosphorus and calcium to the soil and keep the area covered with a nice layer of compost or leaf mold and your plants will be pretty well fed all year. Good healthy soil with lots of room for the plants to spread roots will pay off nicely at harvest time.

Miracle grow and chemical fertilizers will grow plants quickly, but it's like feeding your kids steroids to make them bigger and stronger. They become dependant on the chemicals, and the chemicals will kill all beneficial bacteria and microbes in the soil that naturally help feed plants and keep them healthy. If you stop feeding them the chemicals the plants become weak and more prone to disease.

I really enjoy watching all my plants in my garden grow every year, knowing that earthworms, microbes and all sorts of little creatures are symbiotically working together to make my plants green, healthy and strong. But I am a bit of a dork.

 

[Randar]

Sorry if this is redundant but I havent found too much solid info on fertilizers for hops.

Anyone have personal opinions experiences they could share on compost/manure etc. vs chemical fertilizers for hops?

Where are you and what kind of soil do you have? Hops need nitrogen until they start putting out cones and then potassium after that (or shortly before spur formation).

If you have a good top-soil base, IMO, top-dressing with well-aged compost is the way to go. Any chemical ferts should be of the slow-release variety.

There are a few field pocket guides to help diagnose issues you might be seeing in the field if growth seems off or leaves are burned/deformed, etc (google search will find it for ya).

Here is a well-circulated fertilizer guide discussing hop needs (as measured in Willamette Valley hop yards)
http://extension.oregonstate.edu/catalog/pdf/fg/fg79-e.pdf

 

[bobbrews]

Organic is king for in-ground growth

Chemical is king for container growth

What are you planning on? Either way, I suggest perusing the forums on gardenweb.com - Tons of good info there that will further support my above advice with much research.

 

[sweetcell]

from another thread:

i wouldn't be afraid of artificial fertilizers. it's the pure form of the same things the plants would get from manure, compost, etc. research has shown that plants are indifferent where they get their N-P-K from.

manure/compost/etc is superior for other reasons (soil structure, slow release, pH, micronutrients, etc) so go with that if you've got it. but there is no reason IMO to fear the 10-10-10.

one thing with manure/compost/etc is that it is best if mixed into the soil. artificial fertilizers have the advantage that you can apply them at the surface or to the water, and they will make their way down to the roots much more efficiently than organic matter at the surface.

 

[bobbrews]

For chemical fertilizers in containerized plants, the best ratio is actually 3-1-2 (N-P-K). You might need a potassium boost upon fruiting/flowering to strengthen the roots (think of it like prenatal vitamins for pregnant women) but during the vegetative stage you really can't go wrong with the simple 3-1-2 ratio.

These will all give better results than 10-10-10, 10-15-30, 30-30-50, etc:

3-1-2
6-2-4
9-3-6
12-4-8
15-5-10

You don't want to mix and match Manure and Miracle Gro though. The soil culture in container plants is not suitable for organic composts and constantly changing soil structure/tilth. Just as the culture of in-ground soils is everchanging and more accustomed toward organic breakdown over time.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

stuff like Fox Farms is good stuff but a bit pricey and more intended for growing hops cousin plant (although I'm sure hops would love the stuff).

Oh crap, really? My bad.... I've just used it on veggies and hops

 

[bigljd]

from another thread:

i wouldn't be afraid of artificial fertilizers. it's the pure form of the same things the plants would get from manure, compost, etc. research has shown that plants are indifferent where they get their N-P-K from.

manure/compost/etc is superior for other reasons (soil structure, slow release, pH, micronutrients, etc) so go with that if you've got it. but there is no reason IMO to fear the 10-10-10.

one thing with manure/compost/etc is that it is best if mixed into the soil. artificial fertilizers have the advantage that you can apply them at the surface or to the water, and they will make their way down to the roots much more efficiently than organic matter at the surface.

I wouldn't necessarily be afraid of artificial fertilizers either. Slow release varieties would be the best artificial option since they will feed a bit at a time. I'd just be careful with the high NPK stuff out there like 20-35-25 or something like that (Miracle gro powders). They can burn plants and build up salts in the soil that can screw up soil balances. The nutrients are the same in artificial fertilizers, but the way the food is delivered to the plants can be very different. Compost and organics are broken down by microbes slowly over time, so the plants have continuous food available. Regular Miracle gro will give your plants a blast of nutrients but after a few days the plants begin to starve until the next feeding. Sort of like people binging on a huge meal and then starving for 2 weeks - it's not the healthiest way to live.

To me building compost piles and enriching the soil with it is all part of the fun of gardening, but I know not everyone has the space or desire to do that. Mix compost in with your potting soil and top dress with blood and bone meal and cover with more compost, and organics work just as well in containers as in the ground. I grow lemongrass, galangal, several citrus and blueberry plants, lettuce, spinach, garlic and lots of flowers and herbs in containers and grow all organic and the plants love it. As the saying goes, feed the soil, not the plants.

 

[bigljd]

Oh crap, really? My bad.... I've just used it on veggies and hops

Well, they are good ferts and will grow most anything well. Hop growers are not Fox Farms 'target consumers' though. Not that I would know about such things of course - it's strictly hearsay

Edit: Their company is based out of Humboldt County CA, if that give any clues to anyone LOL.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Well, they are good ferts and will grow most anything well. Hop growers are not Fox Farms 'target consumers' though. Not that I would know about such things of course - it's strictly hearsay

Ah gotcha. There's a hydroponics store in town and that where the best prices for Fox Farm are. It's actually stupid cheap: $12 for one of the big big bags (like 25#.... can't remember)

 

[bigljd]

Ah gotcha. There's a hydroponics store in town and that where the best prices for Fox Farm are. It's actually stupid cheap: $12 for one of the big big bags (like 25#.... can't remember)

Yeah, I've used their Ocean Forest and Happy Frog soils before for container plants and it's good stuff. They have a good line of liquid and dry fertilizers that when used correctly will grow very good plants of all types. They are mostly organic too, so that a bonus.
I'm a cheap b*stard though, so I just mix together grass clippings, leaves, shredded junk mail and spent grains and a few weeks/months later I have free compost.

 

[jessox80]

I think, like with most things, a balance could be good a good thing. I used some slow release artificials when planting and early on in my hops' lives. Now I have a juicer and mix the "waste pulp" (much of which is from beets, carrots, kale, parsley, and various fruits) it produces into my composter. A scoop of some of that mixed with soil thrown around anything that grows in my yard shows both immediate & sustained improvements. With some plants (blueberries & hops) I got explosive results.
I think both organic and artificial will work provided one does not adopt the attitude that "more is better."

 

[bobbrews]

Here's some info/links from someone with actual knowledge on the subject...

"All organic methodologies which include growing in compost presents the issues of:

1) High water-retention
2) Reduced aeration when compared to bark-based soils
3) Unreliable and erratic delivery of nutrients due to large fluctuations in biotic soil populations
4) Difficulty watering properly so accumulating salts are flushed from the soil because you risk root rot (see 1&2)
5) Frequent N immobility due to the tendency to use unfinished compost
6) In some cases, excessively high media temperatures due to the ongoing breakdown of unfinished compost"

This is especially true if you're growing plants in containers and NOT solely using synthetic fertilizers, which you should be doing.

"Where container culture is the topic, soluble synthetic fertilizers get the nod from me - hands down. They are easier to use; we know exactly what nutrients our plants are getting and when they are getting them; delivery of nutrients does not depend on the activity of soil organisms whose populations vary in boom/bust cycles in containers; you're using a soluble product, not an organic soil amendment that has the potential to clog valuable macro-pores; you need not worry about soil structure, because if you are smart you will have built it into the medium before you planted in it."

This guy has a penchant for container gardening, so his methods posted here support this. However, he is a true believer in organic gardening when NOT using containers. When you mix & match synthetic and organic fertilizer though, you don't know what's feeding your plant and are at a higher risk of underfeeding or feeding them too much / burning the plants.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/soil/msg111632373684.html
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg1020215928898.html?151#post
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/plumeria/msg1110423916856.html

 

[jfrank85]

Organic soil base with mycorrhizae, organic slow release fertilizer 5-5-5, monty's fertilizer during growth, 20-5-22 with trace once buds start. Mycorrhizae requires low P at first to establish but by looking at this years growth, it is worth it imo. All my insecticides and fungicides are organic.

 

[badbrew]

They both work just fine but organic tend to be easier to work with. They tend to have less nutrients and more room for error. They also usually have more micros and help to buffer the soil. Downfall is the price differences. I will be using organic for this most likely. I have grow power 5-3-1 for the vegetative phase, and I will get their flower and bloom (3-12-12) for the flowering. I may mix the two for flowering though.

 

[jfrank85]

Organics tend to stay around the root zone so the plants can use them at their leisure, the other can be washed out quickly. Organics build the soil up for future success and long term plant health.

 

[2BeerSpeer]

so what organics can be picked up at Lowes,HD and WMart? I saw Osmocote organic food pellets at WM but it was 7-7-7..

 

[jfrank85]

http://drearth.net/blog/pdf/gardening_guide.pdf

 

[bigljd]

Here's some info/links from someone with actual knowledge on the subject...

"All organic methodologies which include growing in compost presents the issues of:

1) High water-retention
2) Reduced aeration when compared to bark-based soils
3) Unreliable and erratic delivery of nutrients due to large fluctuations in biotic soil populations
4) Difficulty watering properly so accumulating salts are flushed from the soil because you risk root rot (see 1&2)
5) Frequent N immobility due to the tendency to use unfinished compost
6) In some cases, excessively high media temperatures due to the ongoing breakdown of unfinished compost"

This is especially true if you're growing plants in containers and NOT solely using synthetic fertilizers, which you should be doing.

"Where container culture is the topic, soluble synthetic fertilizers get the nod from me - hands down. They are easier to use; we know exactly what nutrients our plants are getting and when they are getting them; delivery of nutrients does not depend on the activity of soil organisms whose populations vary in boom/bust cycles in containers; you're using a soluble product, not an organic soil amendment that has the potential to clog valuable macro-pores; you need not worry about soil structure, because if you are smart you will have built it into the medium before you planted in it."

This guy has a penchant for container gardening, so his methods posted here support this. However, he is a true believer in organic gardening when NOT using containers. When you mix & match synthetic and organic fertilizer though, you don't know what's feeding your plant and are at a higher risk of underfeeding or feeding them too much / burning the plants.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/soil/msg111632373684.html
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg1020215928898.html?151#post
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/plumeria/msg1110423916856.html

So I guess the 6 plus years I've grown very healthy plants in containers organically does not count as 'actual knowledge' then. Not saying some of the problems listed above cannot occur growing organically in containers, but if it's done correctly pure organics work great in a container. Same as if you do not follow the synthetic fertilizer instructions correctly you will have problems too. To say that you should only use synthetics in containers is silly.

EDIT: I'm at work and had time to read a couple of the linked articles more completely. I actually agree with most of what he says. What it boils down to I think it that you need to pay attention to your plants and give them what they need. Whether you use synthetics or organic nutrients to feed them is your choice, but you can grow plants very successfully either way. Synthetic fertilizers are the choice of the author of the linked articles, but IMO you can accomplish the same results with organics just as easily.

 

[Pappers_]

For what it's worth, I use compost I made, worm castings, and composted manure on my hops. I use an organic spray on them for pests.

 

[bobbrews]

To say that you should only use synthetics in containers is silly.

No. Actually, it's not. Containers plants are contained within a soil structure that doesn't have the benefit of in-ground tilth. If you put compost or manure in a container, the mix doesn't have the opportunity to recycle itself and change. It's stuck in the container and the amount of nutrients is either way high, or way low. You never know where you are. Synthetic fertilizers along with a well-aerated potting mix are king for container plants because you know exactly what you're putting into this closed soil structure that doesn't recycle itself. I urge you to read a few of tapla's posts at gardenweb.com - After reviewing that one members advice, particularly tapla because he IS an expert, you may very well do a 180. You can continue to put compost in a container if you wish. I never said it cannot be done. It's just not the best method that will yield the best results. Fact.

 

[Pappers_]

It's just not the best method that will yield the best results. Fact.

No, actually, what you are talking about is a practice, not a fact. it may be a 'best practice' in your opinion and others, and be supported by evidence, but that's not a fact.

Plus, it's just being a little unpleasant to say it that way, in my opinion, intended to
put another member in his place.

 

[bigljd]

so what organics can be picked up at Lowes,HD and WMart? I saw Osmocote organic food pellets at WM but it was 7-7-7..

The Lowes and HD around Charlotte carry the Alaska Fish Fertizer which are high in nitrogen and good for early season plant growth. Miracle Gro Organic is also high in N for initial growth. They also have some of the Espoma line of fertilizers, which are usually organic or mostly organic. Lowes and HD should have like a whole block of organic ferts in their store with the plant supplies, and are usually priced about the same as synthetics. Bone meal can be mixed in the soil and will break down over the season to provide calcium and phosporous during the cone producing phase. Compost is a great source of micronutrients and beneficial microbes.

 

[bobbrews]

The fact is that his method is not the best method and it will not yield the best results...I provided reasoning for this. And I never said that his practice wasn't a practice at all.

I suggest you read more into the in-depth reasoning the member at gardenweb.com provides for organic vs. synthentic and containers vs. in-ground. No need to waste more time trying to convince you myself. It's his research, not mine. But he is an expert and does explain very well that feeding "container" soil with compost and other organics is kind of like running a Ferrari on organic corn oil instead of gasoline. Sure it works, but there are an array of issues that you'll end up having to face. Organics are much better suited for "in-ground" plants where the soil tilth is constantly changing and thriving on the organics you feed it. Synthetic fertilizers provide a timed, controlled, direct feeding in one application which subsequently becomes diluted and runs out of the soil through watering - Organic fertilizers provide a very general, uncontrolled, indirect feeding over time... you constantly have to feed the soil, which is alive. Container Bonsai growers almost exclusively use synthetic fertilizers for a few of the facts mentioned here.

To the person who saw Osmocote time-release at 7-7-7... they also make 12-4-8 time-release.

 

[bigljd]

No. Actually, it's not. Containers plants are contained within a soil structure that doesn't have the benefit of in-ground tilth. If you put compost or manure in a container, the mix doesn't have the opportunity to recycle itself and change. It's stuck in the container and the amount of nutrients is either way high, or way low. You never know where you are. Synthetic fertilizers along with a well-aerated potting mix are king for container plants because you know exactly what you're putting into this closed soil structure that doesn't recycle itself. I urge you to read a few of tapla's posts at gardenweb.com - After reviewing that one members advice, particularly tapla because he IS an expert, you may very well do a 180. You can continue to put compost in a container if you wish. I never said it cannot be done. It's just not the best method that will yield the best results. Fact.

Hmm, so when I add Alaska Fish Ferts to the soil, which have a NPK ratio of 5-1-1 and are completely organic, I have no idea what I'm adding to the soil? And when I feed the plants with compost tea to boost microbe life in the container, that doesn't help the soil regenerate/recycle?

Gardening is a lot like home brewing. There are a lot of different ways to end up with the same results. I've seen lots of people yell and scream that their way is the only way and best way of brewing, only to have someone else use the complete opposite method and win a best of show medal for their beer. I have grown plants organically, with synthetics, and even with hydroponics using aeroponics and deep water cultures (I was growing lettuce by the way, not hops cousin plant). I prefer organics in and out of containers both for environmental reasons but also because of the healthy plants I've grown using this method. But apparently I'm the closed minded one in this discussion LOL.

 

[bobbrews]

Closed-minded people refuse to change their ways even though factual evidence explains why another method is better. Please, if you're interested, go to gardenweb.com and read up on what tapla has to say about the issues mentioned in this thread - If not, no sweat off my back. Just trying to help.

 

[bhughes]

Once your hop plants are established, all you can really do to add organic compost to them is to put the compost on the top around them right? How can you mix the compost into the soil once the hop plants are already established in the soil?

From what I know, nutrients from the compost will still run down into the soil below just like with artificial fertilizers, just more slowly.

 

[bigljd]

Closed-minded people refuse to change their ways even though factual evidence explains why another method is better. Please, if you're interested, go to gardenweb.com and read up on what tapla has to say about the issues mentioned in this thread - If not, no sweat off my back. Just trying to help.

I actually already read the articles you linked this morning, and do agree with many things the author says. Where I disagree with you and the author is in the opinion that you cannot control what is going on in a container using organics. I call bullsh*t, because using completely organic nutes you can control the nutrient contents in the container soil. Here's a whole site full of organic nutrients that will provide the exact NPK ratios so that you can control exactly what goes into your container soil. And I like gardenweb.com too, it's a great gardening resource, but when reading I allow myself the right to disagree with some things that are written there that contradict my personal experience.

 

[AgingHopster]

I'm an experienced hydro/soil/soiless mix grower. I've been growing since I was a kid and started studying horticulture about 10 years ago. I can tell you in all my humble experience, I have yet to see a noticeable difference in anything I've ever grown based on mineral/chem ferts over "organic" labeled store bought ferts in a bottle. There is a huge inconsistency on the labeling of organic ferts in the world of so-called "organic" ferts, the same as there is in the food end labeling of the world of "organic" foods. Just because the label says it's organic, doesn't mean it is. In fertilizers there is a pretty good way of identifying good organic ferts and that's by looking for the OMRI logo. https://www.omri.org/ I am pretty sure fox farm nutes are mostly non-OMRI recognized, which doesn't necessarily mean it's non-organic, it means it's what FF calls organic, which can be vastly different from another manufacture's definition. Ya see, there is no universal standard in organic labeling.

Not to mention, there are so many things that can negate being certified organically grown once you have grown your harvest. Just because you feed it organic nutes doesn't mean it can be labeled or refereed to as "organic" food. Any number of things can disqualify a true organic grow. You'd have to do soil testing, all your pesticides would have to check out and even a little thing like pressure treated lumber in your grow area can cancel you out, if...that is, if you really are concerned with all the technicalities.

Not me, I grow using a balance of nature and technology. I try to keep it organic and natural as much as possible but I don't split hairs over just how organic I am growing. I've used every store bought liquid fert from fox farms to advanced nutrients to botanicare, general hydro yada yada yada...they're pretty much all the same when you compare each company's apple to apples. No matter what you grow and no matter what you feed it, the MOST IMPORTANT THING is a healthy rhizosphere, the word literally means root-ball. Because, no matter what you feed your plants (chem/mineral or organic) the plant doesn't really know the difference because roots don't "eat" the organic matter, they absorb liberated molecules from decayed organic matter or derived from minerals, the absorbed molecule is still the same. Things like Nitrogen (N), Phosphorous (P) and Potassium (K) and a host of other elements are all found on the periodic table. Plants don't eat the coffee grounds or the banana peel you throw at them, the absorb the nitrogen and the potassium molecules that are released once it's decomposed by millions of hard working living organisms. Those organisms, like their cousins we love so much called yeast, are our friends. In fact we owe everything to them.

Which brings me to the best advice I can give you. If you've ever made a yeast starer you know how to make a compost tea. You may have already heard about compost tea but just in case you didn't or for those who don't know, it's easy to do. All you need is a 5 gallon bucket, a $10 air pump from a pet store and a $2 air stone and some earthworm castings in a silk screen sock or women's nylon. No need for me to write the entire directions for how to make compost tea since youtube can tell you more than I care to type and it's pretty basic and fool proof anyway. Just do it! Make some compost tea!

I will will say this: Be sure to off-gas the chlorine by waiting 10 or more hours before you add anything to the water and add a carbohydrate! I use molasses or if you can get it, jagery sugar is best actually because it has more useful minerals in it. I use a cup or more in a 5 gallon brew. I also use a cup of earthworm castings and several readily available beneficial bacteria, fungi and trichoderma. Look for products with the following and/or other cultures of microbes such as Bacillus Subtilis, Bacillus Licheniformus, Bacillus Azotoformans, Bacillus Megaterium (bacteria), Glomus Intraradices, Glomus Aggregatum, Trichoderma Koningii (fungi). I use a product called Roots Oregonism Xl because it's got all those and more and also has Yucca extract in it which is great for plants as well. Add that to your tea brewer along with the carbohydrates and sugars and throw a bubble stone in the bucket at about 75-78 degrees for a day or two and guess what happens? LoL! Yep, microbe propagation just like a yeast starter. Once your tea has "krausened" well (18-24 hours @ 75F-78F is usually about right), you are good to go. Dilute the tea 50/50 with declorinated, tepid water and root drench.

Once you start brewing teas you'll never need or want to do anything else. You can even make your own base fertilizers with various types guano and compost. Remember, it's the microbes that do all the work especially if you are growing organic. A good healthy beneficial microbial culture in the rhizosphere means a healthy, more disease resistant plant with larger yield!