Opening a Brewpub

[Torchiest]

I am planning on going in with one other person and opening a bar together. We have almost two decades of combined bar experience between us, and a decade of management experience. I also want to do commercial brewing, and had been planning that before the bar idea came along. So now, I'm thinking we could do a brew pub together.

Does anyone know of any good sources of information about commercial scale brewing, equipment, maintaining yeast cultures, and things like that? I'm not ready to go all out just yet, but I'd say within a couple years at most I'll be doing this for real. I've been doing some pricing of equipment, and I'm thinking a system of around 1 - 3 BBLs might be about right for the concept we're developing.

I know BrewPastor did it a brewery for real, and his story and experience was amazing, but I don't want to do it quite so big. All the brewmasters I've spoken with say a brewpub is a lot easier, and the profit margin is better. So, any information or links would be greatly appreciated.

 

[feedthebear]

I know there are a couple of of books. "Brewing up a Business" by Sam Calagione and "The Brewer's Association Guide to Starting your Own Brewery" by Ray Daniels.

I don't know how good/bad either one is. But both are on my list of books to buy.

 

[Torchiest]

I've been reading "Brewing Up a Business." It's pretty good, but it's more of a general business book with examples from brewing, rather than one that gets into the details of larger scale brewing. I've heard the Brewer's Association Guide isn't very good, but I might end up getting it anyway eventually.

 

[RichBrewer]

From everything I've heard, you need to be a business person first and a brewer second to be successful. Knowing how to come up with a good business plan is crucial.
This is why I'll never become a professional brewer.

 

[MikeRLynch]

I've also heard that a brewpub is judged as much on it's food and service as much as its beer, so you essentially need to open a brewery AND a restaraunt at the same time. The other thing I've heard is that you won't be able to distribute your beer at other restaraunts, because you'd be competing with them. In addition to reading up on beer buisness, read up on food service (and people who are in the restuarant buiness will tell you, it aint no picnic ) Perhaps add Kitchen Confidential by Anthony Bourdain to your list. It isn't a buisness guide, but it's damn funny and gives you a very real and frightening view of the food buisness from the other side of the kitchen doors.

mike

 

[the_bird]

A one- to- three barrel setup seems like it might be a little bit on the small side; have you checked with other brewpubs in the area to see what size setups they use? I noticed that the smallish brewpub I frequent has a 5bbl system, and even that doesn't look too large. Hate to see you have a successful operation, then need to completely upgrade your system within a short period of time.

Either of you have any experience running a restaurant? As Rich says, that's at least as important as running the brewery side.

You've also got to make sure you've got enough capital behind you (I know, the hardest part). My sense is that most business ventures like this do not fail because the beer is bad, or the food is bad, or anything directly related to the operations, but because they do not have succifient capital to get the business established.

Oh - GOOD LUCK! This definately sounds cool, sounds like it will be a ton of work, but it's something that I think all of us would love to do.

 

[Desert_Sky]

We just formed our L.L.C. for a distribution setup. Originally we were going to go the route of a brewpub, but the thought of brewing all day and then having to go run a bar wasn't too appealing. Granted the profit is definitely there selling pints though.....


It's a long road you have ahead of you. Good Luck!

 

[FlyingHorse]

Echoing what others have said: if you do a brewpub, brewing becomes a distant third on the list of important things.

First is running the restaurant. You can have all the good beer in the world, but if your food is mediocre and the service sucks, you're toast. (My two cents here -- I think many brewpubs try to be too upscale or do too much with their menus).

Second, distribution (assuming you're going to distribute). Finding other retail outlets and a good way to get beer to them is key.

Finally, the beer. EVen way down here on the list it can make or break you, but it should be getting less of your attention than the first two.

Also, the 1-3 bbl system sounds really small to me. The brewpub where I used to work had a 15-bbl kettle and 8 or 10 30-bbl fermenters (they do bottling and regional distro, though). and there's a local berwery here (no pub) that just distributes kegs to maybe three dozen local restaurants, and his system is a 10-bbl kettle, 2x7-bbl fermenters, a 10-bbl fermenter and a 20 -bbl fermenter.
Hes a former homebrewer and a great guy, and might be willing to talk to you if you have questions: http://www.eastendbrewing.com/

 

[the_bird]

We just formed our L.L.C. for a distribution setup. Originally we were going to go the route of a brewpub, but the thought of brewing all day and then having to go run a bar wasn't too appealing. Granted the profit is definitely there selling pints though.....


It's a long road you have ahead of you. Good Luck!

So you are going that route now? Cool!

 

[joebou4860]

The rule of thumb I have heard is to estimate 5-7 Bbl per seat per year.
So if you have a 50 seat restaurant that would be between 250 and 350 Bbl/ year.
If you have a 1 Bbl system you will pretty much be brewing every day of the year.

gg life.

however a 3Bbl system puts you at brewing aout 2x/week

 

[Rhoobarb]

... The other thing I've heard is that you won't be able to distribute your beer at other restaraunts, because you'd be competing with them. ...

I think that may depend on where you're located and how reputable your brewpub is. I know that where I live, some of the other brewpubs, restaurants and bars in the area will feature another brewpub's beers either permanently or as 'guest taps'. You're right in that you won't see mass distribution, though.

In addition to the other great suggestions posted here, I'd also suggest a course at The Siebel Institute. It seems every brewery or brewpub I have been to underwent a change for the better after their brewers went there. And the ones that were great from the beginning all had courses there in their resume. I plan to take a short course in homebrewing there myself someday.

They are beginning a new course which might be of interest. Check out the Start Your Own Brewery Course. (Notice the name of the contact person.) I know this course took place in May, but you might want to contact them to see if/when it will be coming up again.

 

[Brewiz]

Try here http://probrewer.com/ , you may find some useful info. And Good Luck!!

 

[Desert_Sky]

So you are going that route now? Cool!

Yea we thought and thought about how we wanted to do this. And running a bar/restaurant just doesnt sound like much fun. and not to be a downer on your idea, its just not for us


yea a 1-3 BBL would work for a pilot system, but will be way to small I think for brewing operations for the pub itself. You would end up having to brew way too much to try and keep up with demand

 

[Catfish]

If youare considering starting on a 1 bbl system anyway, why not save the money and cobble together a glorified homebrew system? A few 50 gallon soup pots, pumps and a bit of welding is far cheaper to start on than shiney copper.

You can keep your money for the inevitable upgrade.

 

[LouT]

A couple of comments:
Rmember, impressions to the customer are important. If you start off a bit oversized, at least you will be labeled positively, vs. taking a chance of being labled "rinky-dink".
Second -- location is critical. As much as you'd like to think your place will be a destination location, from what I have seen the most successful brewpubs are in busy areas that already have plentiful nightclub/restaurant and daytime lunch activity. Alternatively, being very close to a major sports/concert venue can work in your favor, too.
Get the buzz going -- as far as 2-3 months before your scheduled opening get some press releases out to some local papers and the "brew rags" if they have any of them in your area. Possibly even go as far as getting samples of your best brews into the hands of folks that might write favorably about them (or review them on local tv etc.).

Good luck, have fun, be ready for a lot of work -- owning your own business is great but plan on it being a major consumer of your time!

 

[kornkob]

Be careful how you advertise too-- I've seen places try to advertise by putting up photocopied ads on billboards and that leaves some with the impression that it's a fly-by-night operation.

And for cripes sake have really clean glasses. If I walk into one more brew pub that hands me a beer in a spotty glass I think I'm gonna scream.

 

[Driftless Brewer]

Does a brewpub have to include a restaurant? Couldn't someone open a bar that is mostly commercial beers with 2 or 3 "house brews". That way a small system would be sufficiant.

Just wondering.

 

[Desert_Sky]

Does a brewpub have to include a restaurant? Couldn't someone open a bar that is mostly commercial beers with 2 or 3 "house brews". That way a small system would be sufficiant.

Just wondering.

lots of liquor licenses, especially a class 6 (well out this way anyways) require you to sell food along with alcohol. Now that could be frozen pizzas and hot pockets, or a nice restaurant. But why sell great beer with piss poor food?

 

[Alamo_Beer]

Hey Torchiest, where's Seabrook? If it's any where near Corpus I'll be out to visit you....

Good luck!

 

[brewt00l]

Lots of great points already in the thread.

I have noticed that around here a brewpub with good food and mediocre beer will stay in business while one with good beer and mediocre food will shut its doors in 6 months. That says to me that the underlying reality is that you are running a restruant first and a brewery second. This always took some of the shine off the idea for me.

 

[Driftless Brewer]

lots of liquor licenses, especially a class 6 (well out this way anyways) require you to sell food along with alcohol. Now that could be frozen pizzas and hot pockets, or a nice restaurant. But why sell great beer with piss poor food?

I just remembered that there is a small brewpub in my home town of Cedarburg, WI that is just a bar, but they sell a very nice (by nice I mean high quality and good precentation) cheese plate. That's the only food they sell, but it must be enough to stay within the rules and regulations.

Torchiest, this might be the size establishment you are interested in. Check them out at http://www.silvercreekbrewing.com/

 

[knipknup]

All I can say is; "you bitch!"
I'll come drink some of your brew and bring you some business when you are functioning.

Good luck...

Signed,
Still working for the Man...

 

[Ryanh1801]

Just an FYI. There is an micro brewery for sale in Fort Worth. Drove by it the other day. Looked like all the equipment was still there. Might be worth checking out, could be a cheaper way to start up, and it is just a few miles north of down town.

 

[Desert_Sky]

Just an FYI. There is an micro brewery for sale in Fort Worth. Drove by it the other day. Looked like all the equipment was still there. Might be worth checking out, could be a cheaper way to start up, and it is just a few miles north of down town.

great point,

a turn key operation thats already making money is a good way to go. You have a better chance to receive money from a bank for this venture if the place is already turning a profit.


but then again....why would someone be selling it if it's doing well? Just look at both sides of the whole situation.

 

[Ryanh1801]

great point,

a turn key operation thats already making money is a good way to go. You have a better chance to receive money from a bank for this venture if the place is already turning a profit.


but then again....why would someone be selling it if it's doing well? Just look at both sides of the whole situation.

They went out of business. I looked up the place, I think it was only open for 2 years and has been for sale for another 2 years. So I was thinking It might be easy to make a deal. What was crazy about finding it was just two min. before that I was talking to my mom and she was saying I should look into doing something like that after college. Then out of no where I see that place.

 

[the_bird]

They went out of business. I looked up the place, I think it was only open for 2 years and has been for sale for another 2 years. So I was thinking It might be easy to make a deal. What was crazy about finding it was just two min. before that I was talking to my mom and she was saying I should look into doing something like that after college. Then out of no where I see that place.

The fact that it hasn't sold for two years is a HUGE red flag.

The other thing no one has mentioned yet - and I wonder if this could be the issue here - is like everything, location is absolutely critical. There will be a few adventurous souls who will seek you out; for the bulk of your business, the new customers will come by because you are convenient or because they noticed you while they were doing something else. You've got to have a good location or the rest of it is for naught.

 

[Desert_Sky]

which is another reason we are going distribution. Location doesnt mean as much as it does if you need customers to come to you. We can go out into the sticks, get a great deal on land and since we are outside the city, zoning wont be as much of a problem. We may have a small bar for "tasting" purposes, but wont really be counting on that money to pay the bills.

 

[MikeRLynch]

A slight aside, I wrote up a short review of McSorleys Ale House in NY a while back that might be interesting, given the topic here. An example of a pub that brews it's own with no food to speak of that's been around for generations. Anyone who's been there knows that the tone of the review is no hyperbole

http://www.geocities.com/thelastknght/mcsorleys.html

my apologies for the site, its not done my any means

mike

 

[Desert_Sky]

Once again it all depends on location. Im sure you could do a brew pub without any food if you, i dont know....put it right next to a university for example.

there are quite a few people out there that do just want to drink good beer.

 

[kvh]

A slight aside, I wrote up a short review of McSorleys Ale House in NY a while back that might be interesting, given the topic here. An example of a pub that brews it's own with no food to speak of that's been around for generations. Anyone who's been there knows that the tone of the review is no hyperbole

http://www.geocities.com/thelastknght/mcsorleys.html

my apologies for the site, its not done my any means

mike

When I was there, I asked them specifically if and where they brewed their beer, since it was so distinctive, so-named (light and dark) and I had recalled reading about them brewing their own, especially through Prohibition.

The bartender answered that their beer is brewed off site for them. There is no brewery on premise anymore. I would suspect that it is now brewed by FX Matt or some other such 'local' contract brewer (Greenpoint Beer Works comes to mind.) Since they are then technically just selling beer, they are 'just a bar' (also the oldest continuous bar in the country).

And as far as the food/beer balance goes, for certain alcohol licences, the food must account for a certain percentage of the total sales in the restaurant. I'm sure this percentage varies with the region.

And finally, my local brew-pub not only brews for themself but also distribute draft beer within the city to other bars. They have a 10bbl brewhouse, and keep the city fairly well stocked with good beer. Somehow they have beat the 'competition' problems by making very very good beer. That always helps, of course.