Open Source Hops Growers

[Owly055]

All my hops finally are up!! The cascade and magnum were slow. I have northern brewer, nugget, cascade, centennial, magnum, and golding.

I've been thinking about open source....... I use Linux on my primary computer and have for many years now. The principle is that people all over the world contribute to the project, and nobody "owns" it. Suppose we did this with hops breeding.......

John Doe has a handfull of seeds......... can he plant and assess all of them himself locally? Grow them and try each one in various brews, decide which ones have merit, and which do not?

Suppose those seeds are passed around and people around the world who have garden space and a community of home brewers around them plant them and try them.....

In an open source community, if you are the person who ends up with one that is special, you don't really "own" it in the sense of getting wealthy from it. You make it available to others. You share cones, cuttings, rhizomes, seeds, etc... with the object of making it widely available as quickly as possible. The goal being "better beer for all". Naming would reflect the origin of the seed..... so if I wanted to name the hop for my home town, it might be "Doe 3 Melville" indicating that it was from John Doe's 3 cross, grown in Melville.

Some of the hops that came into the open source community might be "feral", "escaped", or "liberated"....... But we won't examine the lineage too closely. If an interesting "wild" hop found in the woods of Missouri happened to resemble a commercial variety.... well, what can happen once can happen again ;-) .......... but that isn't the objective here. It's providing John Doe a way to reduce the time and labor involved in assessing those few hundred hop seeds.

Hop growers and breeders breed for resistance to this and that, and yield first, flavor second. Just like tomato growers.... A square tomato that ripened on exactly the same day, and was resistant to bruising and various pests would soon be the ONLY tomato available in the store.

You and I have ONE priority........... GOOD BEER


H.W.

 

[broadbill]

Open source works for software because it cost essentially nothing to distribute it. I don't know of any actual open source project where an actual tangible product is distributed. This is probably because there are inherent costs in distributing the product.

In the case of hops, it would be the cost of digging it up, packaging, and shipping it to the next person. In addition to asking a person to participate in the project, you are asking them to also eat the cost of the distribution on top. Unless they are receiving something in return, what is the benefit to them?

The second thing to consider that you really don't have anything of value to me, that I don't already have access to. The Cascase plant you have growing in your yard is almost genetically identical to the one in my yard and it only cost me $4 from Great Lakes Hops (after all, isn't that why they call it a strain in the first place?).


I suppose someone out there might want to be the Johnny Appleseed of Hops and take the time to harvest and distribute some weed they found in the woods behind their house, but how many people are actually doing that, in addition to proving out the fact that their plant is something unique?

Now if we could all get our hands on some of the proprietary hop strains (I love me some Citra), now we are talking! But, that is more Silkroad than open-source and I'm not interested in getting arrested/sued so you can have it.

 

[afr0byte]

Open source works for software because it cost essentially nothing to distribute it. I don't know of any actual open source project where an actual tangible product is distributed. This is probably because there are inherent costs in distributing the product.

In the case of hops, it would be the cost of digging it up, packaging, and shipping it to the next person. In addition to asking a person to participate in the project, you are asking them to also eat the cost of the distribution on top. Unless they are receiving something in return, what is the benefit to them?

The second thing to consider that you really don't have anything of value to me, that I don't already have access to. The Cascase plant you have growing in your yard is almost genetically identical to the one in my yard and it only cost me $4 from Great Lakes Hops (after all, isn't that why they call it a strain in the first place?).


I suppose someone out there might want to be the Johnny Appleseed of Hops and take the time to harvest and distribute some weed they found in the woods behind their house, but how many people are actually doing that, in addition to proving out the fact that their plant is something unique?

Now if we could all get our hands on some of the proprietary hop strains (I love me some Citra), now we are talking! But, that is more Silkroad than open-source and I'm not interested in getting arrested/sued so you can have it.

I wonder, what are the legalities of the Citra-type situation? I certainly wouldn't try it, but it's intresting to ponder. What's the most one could be charged with. I imagine destruction of property / trespassing are givens, but could they make you remove the plant from your property? I'm guessing yes, but I don't know.

 

[Owly055]

Open source works for software because it cost essentially nothing to distribute it. I don't know of any actual open source project where an actual tangible product is distributed. This is probably because there are inherent costs in distributing the product.

In the case of hops, it would be the cost of digging it up, packaging, and shipping it to the next person. In addition to asking a person to participate in the project, you are asking them to also eat the cost of the distribution on top. Unless they are receiving something in return, what is the benefit to them?

The second thing to consider that you really don't have anything of value to me, that I don't already have access to. The Cascase plant you have growing in your yard is almost genetically identical to the one in my yard and it only cost me $4 from Great Lakes Hops (after all, isn't that why they call it a strain in the first place?).


I suppose someone out there might want to be the Johnny Appleseed of Hops and take the time to harvest and distribute some weed they found in the woods behind their house, but how many people are actually doing that, in addition to proving out the fact that their plant is something unique?

Now if we could all get our hands on some of the proprietary hop strains (I love me some Citra), now we are talking! But, that is more Silkroad than open-source and I'm not interested in getting arrested/sued so you can have it.

The idea isn't that one should eat the costs of sharing the plants around.... nobody expects someone do eat costs... that's completely unrealistic. The real purpose of the project would be to allow the little guy to realistically do crosses and get them out to be tried without hundreds of acres and lots of resources. There are a LOT of steps beyond just doing a cross and sticking a few seeds in the ground. Just think how many batches of beer one person would have to brew to recognize the potential in one of a hand full of seeds! Out of a hundred seeds from one cross, some will be male, and some female, and no two will be alike, which is why hops are cloned, not grown from seed. A big grower in Yakima Valley is likely to pass over countless new variants because he simply cannot devote enough resources to recognize something special. A home grower with half a dozen plants is a different story. He can brew a few test SMASH brews, and share with friends. An agronomist may recognize a square tomato as being something unique and special, but can he recognize a subtle taste characteristic that makes something great? Maybe yes, maybe no. Or perhaps I have something special in my garden from a cross, but it isn't a flavor that appeals to me personally, but if I give you a few ounces, you might recognize it for what it is.
Sharing cuttings and rhizomes from well established common hops you can get elsewhere isn't the point at all........ sharing things that are unique and / or uncommon is.

H.W.

 

[GVH_Dan]

Grand idea but implementation could/would be a bi***.

There are all ready a couple of threads of people trying to do breeding. There are also a number of threads about people who have found a wild strain or a feral plant. The one thing in common in all the threads are people saying, "Can you send me a seed/rhizome/clipping/etc." I used to be one of those people. I even offered to pay for shipping + a bit more, especially for something that sounded a bit interesting. Even though I got multiple "I'll drop it in the mail this weekend!", they never arrived.

Why? I don't know. Maybe because people are lazy? Maybe they forgot? Maybe the plant got up and walked away?

I suspect a number of the times its because finding the next "big hop" could be a gold mine...OK, maybe a silver mine. When push comes to shove, a twinge of greed kicks in. With software, many are contributing and all benefit. With a tangible item like a hop strain, it may work to pass around and share but someone will get greedy and try to patent it or refuse to share or whatever.

If this is to work, there needs to be a central repository where people send and receive and everything is documented. In other words, I send you 5 seeds, I get 5 seeds back or maybe a rhizome. Make sure there is an incentive for people to give and not just receive. Then even those who are trying to discover the next big variety have to at least share something in order to get themselves started.

The source of everything needs to be documented so there is proof that any particular new variety is in the public domain. Of course that means the overseer will have to avoid "liberated" plant material as the documentation would point to theft. The documentation could be the breeding history, it could be an oil profile, it could be DNA...I don't have experience in this, I'm just running through all the problems in my head.

Of course all this has to be funded by someone/something. It doesn't sound like much but it could get expensive.

Finally, as a (small scale) commercial grower, there are certain dangers to rampant breeding programs popping up all over by amateurs. Hop pollen can travel for miles. We tossed around the idea of a breeding program until we found seeds in one of our fields. It took a very extensive "manhunt" until we found the offending boy. After that, I sure as heck don't want some knuckle head starting a breeding program in the next valley over unless he's got a properly isolated greenhouse to keep and pollen from escaping.

I don't mean to sound negative. I'm just trying to be realistic. What happens in one industry doesn't always transfer that well to others. Hit some of the thread like: F#$% Growing hops, BREED HOPS! and see just how hard it is to get seeds to sprout.

 

[sasky7777]

As far as how much trouble you can get in as far as stealing proprietary plants Google Percy Schmeiser. Don't get caught up in the politics of the case, but just what happened to him. Also plant breeding is a lot harder and time consuming then you are considering. Trust me I'm an agrologist.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[afr0byte]

As far as how much trouble you can get in as far as stealing proprietary plants Google Percy Schmeiser. Don't get caught up in the politics of the case, but just what happened to him. Also plant breeding is a lot harder and time consuming then you are considering. Trust me I'm an agrologist.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Ah, I remember that case. I suppose things would be similar in a US court.

 

[broadbill]

The idea isn't that one should eat the costs of sharing the plants around.... nobody expects someone do eat costs... that's completely unrealistic. The real purpose of the project would be to allow the little guy to realistically do crosses and get them out to be tried without hundreds of acres and lots of resources. There are a LOT of steps beyond just doing a cross and sticking a few seeds in the ground. Just think how many batches of beer one person would have to brew to recognize the potential in one of a hand full of seeds! Out of a hundred seeds from one cross, some will be male, and some female, and no two will be alike, which is why hops are cloned, not grown from seed. A big grower in Yakima Valley is likely to pass over countless new variants because he simply cannot devote enough resources to recognize something special. A home grower with half a dozen plants is a different story. He can brew a few test SMASH brews, and share with friends. An agronomist may recognize a square tomato as being something unique and special, but can he recognize a subtle taste characteristic that makes something great? Maybe yes, maybe no. Or perhaps I have something special in my garden from a cross, but it isn't a flavor that appeals to me personally, but if I give you a few ounces, you might recognize it for what it is.
Sharing cuttings and rhizomes from well established common hops you can get elsewhere isn't the point at all........ sharing things that are unique and / or uncommon is.

H.W.

So start crossing hops, and I think you will see why more people don't do it.

I don't think you are giving agronomists or Yakima Valley breeder guys enough credit, and you are giving homebrewers way too much.