Open Fermenter

[Zibe]

Okay I'm making an open topped fermenter for more authentic English ales. I cannot be talked out if it as many shiver with dread of infection. I'll be copying the design of an article I read in BYO a while back basically just a wooden box lined with tile and sealed with food safe silicone sealant. The article recommends aquarium sealant but I have this is it safe? Hopefully its legible but it looks like it is. I know someone far smarter than me can tell me if it will kill me or worse make the beer bad. Thank you in advance for your help.


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[Zibe]

Specifications talks about food contact.


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[PosterGuy]

Unless it actually says it is safe for food contact it probably isn't.

The "100% antimicrobial formula" statement begs one to question what chemical(s) are being used to kill the bugs?

Why not just use an open top food safe plastic drum or bucket?

 

[PosterGuy]

Guess I spoke too soon.

 

[Zibe]

From what little I understand an open topped bucket wouldn't make much difference as the airlock gives little resistance anyway I just want to try a shallow fermentation and see what effect it has on ester production. Plus I want to give top cropping the yeast a go


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[masskrug]

Have you tried to find a shallow SS or plastic pan? Wood and tile sounds like too much work.

 

[Zibe]

Mostly because I have some scrap wood and tile is cheap so the cost would be minimum and I think it would be closer to an English traditional slate fermenter and I like diy stuff so figured it'd be a cool project also have a tile saw and such


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[wilserbrewer]

Anti-microbial is bad stuff! Mildewcides are toxic I believe.

The label say "incidental" food contact.

 

[Zibe]

Yeah may have to take the previous advice and start out in plastic. Found this at the store just have to check if it's food safe plastic. If that works then I'll move on to original plan. Does anyone know if all aquarium sealant food safe?



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[ruger988]

Not to try to thread jack or question your decision, just generally curious as I'm pretty new to this... What benefits to you hope to gain with an open fermenter?

 

[Zibe]

I'm not entirely sure myself but from what I understand with a shallow open fermenter there is less pressure bearing down on the yeast which gives a different character to the beer, more esters. Really i just like experimenting and diy stuff and since I read the article in byo I've wanted to try it. If you google open fermenter and byo you should find the article which will explain better than I can. I already pretty much have everything I need for it except the sealant which is proving more difficult than anticipated so I may take the previous advice and try a plastic storage bin once and build the real one depending on results.



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[Zibe]

Ok not sure if anyone is following this but I found this sterilite container



Did some research and found this response from sterilite on an aquarium thread asking if their products are food safe



Looks good to go unless anyone has objections, if so speak now or forever hold your peace, kidding, plan on an ordinary bitter probably use danstar Windsor yeast (I'm a dry yeast guy) will update but since I have a quarter keg of Ed Worts IPA (highly recommended) a full keg of my house stout and a primary full of Ed Worts Hefe it will probably be a while til I brew again




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[dyqik]

Anti-microbial is bad stuff! Mildewcides are toxic I believe.

The label say "incidental" food contact.

It also says it meets NSF Std. 51 for direct food contact.

 

[Zibe]

Ok progress got the new fermenter at Walmart went with this for $6.50



Had a bottling spigot so drilled a hole and threw that bad boy on (this doesn't worry me as I regularly ferment in a bottling bucket to avoid needing a racking cane)



Now must drink beer to free up a keg so I can use this thing. Probably gonna soak it in oxyclean for a while followed by an iodine soak and then spray with starsan before use. Now that I know this is food safe if this experiment bombs I can always use this as a giant redneck punch bowl (now with spigot)

Will update on brew day


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[Zibe]

Not brew day but here it is marked every half gallon (sorry sharpie was about dead) that's 5.5 gallons now going as high as about 3.5 gallons on a regular bucket we'll see if this has any effect on the beer fermentation if I get something drinkable I'll buy and use the really shallow one I posted before this and see if that makes a difference. Plus I'll have to make a batch in the regular bucket to test. Hopefully this bitter recipe is good. Get ready liver we have work to do.




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[adam01]

So the container looks okay. Now you know you are going to HAVE to ferment half a batch in there and half your regular way, so you can decide approrpiately, if open fermenting
has an appreciable difference.

Keep us updated.

 

[Zibe]

Yeah gonna have to figure that out either have to do a double brew day and mix the wort half in each fermenter or try to find a friend with a vessel allowing me to do 10 gallons I think my mash tun can take it this will be a really low gravity beer not much grain


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[matc]

Sorry but your sterilite container is just as tall as a regular bucket....I'm thinking you won't see any difference between that and an open top bucket

 

[Zibe]

Nay Sayers say Nay.

The height of the containers are similar 5.5 gallons in the sterilite is 9 inches high and comes to the 3.5 gallon mark on the bucket (5.5 gallons in the bucket is 13.5 inches high).
Plus the area of the bottom of the bucket is 113 square inches while the sterilite is 130 square inches.
One fermenter is a cylinder the other closer to a cube.
What will that do to the dynamics of fermenting yeast?
I don't know hence the experiment maybe you are right but I think there will be some difference.
I pretty much only brew English ales so I'm after the tradition and this is the first step to emulate a Yorkshire square.
If it doesn't work I'm out $6.50 ( not really even that since I'll find some use for this thing)
I choose to buck the system, they say I must use a bucket or a conical i say NO I WILL NOT ( at least for one batch, not throwing my buckets away I'm not crazy)
Sorry caught me after a few pints.





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[Zibe]

Not sure if anyone was actually bored enough to subscribe to this thread but planning on brewing for the experiment this weekend. Going for a special bitter. Here's the recipe doing it as a big partial mash since I'm not set up to do 10gal all grain.

8 lb breiss pale ale malt
1 lb caramel 120L
1lb special roast
6.6 lbs amber LME (added at end of boil)

.75 oz magnum 60m
1.5 oz goldings 30m
.5 oz goldings 15m
.5 oz willamette 15m
.5 oz willamette 5m

Should hit about 1.042 og and around 38 ibus (or somewhere close haven't used extract in a long time)

Danstar Windsor yeast


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[Zibe]

Beer is brewed hit the gravity on the head at 1042. Split it for five gallons into each of these:

Used a piece of pvc to prop the lid to make an open fermentation on the sterilite but then covered with a sheet due to a fruit fly problem (drip tray not cleaned on kegerator!!!!)

Will try to update daily on how the fermentation is going, when active fermentation stops I'll drop the lid which is why there is an airlock on the cube


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[Zibe]

Here it is approx 8hrs in



There's no bubbling on the bucket yet but I can see in the clear one some roiling as smaller particulates are going up around and down gonna be interesting to see once it really gets going


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[Weezy]

Nice test. Let us know the flavor differences.

 

[Zibe]

11 hours since I pitched and the bucket is now bubbling and the roiling in the cube is much more pronounced don't know how or if I can post a video but it's cool


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[November]

I'm very interested in the results of this. I especially like that you will be able to do a side by side. If you can try to get some people to taste them blind and note the results..

 

[Zibe]

Tasters will be no problem but it will be beer drinkers not judges so it's possible that if there is a noticeable difference they may like one better but the other may be closer to style who knows. Also gonna try top-cropping some yeast for an upcoming brown porter (possibly a pumpkin brown porter)


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[Zibe]

Alright checked this morning and all visible signs of fermentation are done unfamiliar with Windsor yeast to know if it works this fast. It was rocking yesterday. I dropped the lid on the cube and locked it down. Guess I'll give it a few days and check the gravity. Think I missed my chance to top crop too.


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[Zibe]

*UPDATE*
Alright I was a little concerned that the yeast seemed to stop after 24 hrs so I took gravity readings today. Both vessels have spigots so I took the samples from there. Both looked like about 1016 which is higher than what Brewers Friend (can't say enough good things about that app) anticipated which is 1012. BUT being that I took the samples from the bottom I picked up some yeast and trub..does that throw off the reading any? Ok ok on to the tasting...
In my opinion they are........different
The traditional bucket just seems drier and hoppier than the cube. I had my wife try both and asked her "which do you like better, or are they the same?" She blindly liked the cube better and compared it more to an octoberfest (which I take as meaning less hoppy and more malty\sweeter which would be expected if the shallower fermentation gives more esters)
Because I want to make sure fermentation is done I sanitized my mash paddle and roused the yeast on both (I think they did this with traditional English fermenters). Not sure how many rules I've broken so far with leaving the lid propped and now opening them to stir but neither sample had signs of infection. Probably wait another week and keg just figured I'd update for anyone that might be following.


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[CA_Mouse]

I, for one, am interested in the end results as well. Final Gravity of both and then your tasting notes on them.

 

[adam01]

So what are the heights of the wort in each container. I can't quite match up your gallon markers on the containers.

 

[pigroaster]

You might start a brewing revolution and get me to try a large batch in my commercial milk cooler!

 

[Zibe]

The height of the containers are similar 5.5 gallons in the sterilite is 9 inches high and comes to the 3.5 gallon mark on the bucket (5.5 gallons in the bucket is 13.5 inches high).


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[Zibe]

I'm only trying an experiment on things that have been done for centuries I know some pros still do this as well. If this does work out I'll be looking for a SS pan like the one posted on the first page. Or try the diy one that I saw in BYO that started this whole thing. Of course once I do that they'll run a story about how the Babylonians used clay pots and my ADD will make me try that. Hobby and addiction are closely related.


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[Zibe]

Had to look up what exactly a commercial milk cooler was but if you can control temp in those things looks like it would be an ideal commercial open fermenter, get a couple going with a good top cropping strain and you could just scoop and pitch right into the next one


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[Zibe]

**UPDATE**
Ok a lot to go over including I think the failure of this experiment. Beer was very underattenuated at 1016 I roused the yeast gave it a few more days and kegged but it remained at 1016. Thought I could get by that..I can't it's disgustingly sweet for my taste. As far as if there is a difference between the two-again hard to tell they both just taste too sweet for me to handle. I'm now less concerned with the experiment and more into trying to save ten gallons of beer. Both kegs are already chilled and mostly carbed....so I unhooked them and brought them outside the kegerator. I bled off most of the pressure and I'm gonna let them warm up and pitch a higher attenuating yeast right in the keg I'll rig some type of blow off from the posts. Hoping to drop it to at least 1012 but seeing I've never tried this on carbed beer that was chilled will it work?? Not sure what else to do I've broken plenty of fermentation rules already on this so why not give this a try. Disappointed that it came down to this I should have stuck with my tried and true Nottingham yeast, I can assure you Windsor will never touch another of my beers again I think it got like 60% attenuation. I'm still treating both kegs exactly the same so if there ends up being a difference I would still attribute it to the fermenters but I've introduced too many variables now for my comfort. Will update.....



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[Zibe]

I should mention that playing with brewers friend with the numbers I got that this beer went from an English special bitter to pretty much a Scottish 70 shilling (on the sweet side of that).

I take that to mean my yeast voted to secede from the UK. I can picture a bunch of blue faced little yeasties laughing at me right now. Little do they know I am assembling my English yeast army to do battle. I can take their lives but can I convert their sugars??? We will see....


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[Zibe]

Just read the above it should say secede not succeed.


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[Zibe]

Pitched a pack of muntons gold yeast (my emergency go-to yeast) in each keg and almost immediately the kegs started off-gassing. It was actually shooting foam out the gas post on both within a couple minutes. Not sure if this is the yeast working that quick or just co2 off-gassing but rigged this little blow off which is happily bubbling away. If I can save this I'll be psyched.



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[hopfool]

Might be completely wrong but I thought the shallow depth open fermenter concept had more to do generally with increased surface area for gas exchange.

If this works I'm doing my bucket list tour of Belgian Trappist Monasteries sooner rather than later. Think they'll mind me scraping spores off of their ceilings?

(he says, with kegs of Orval dancing in his head)

 

[Zibe]

Yeah I've heard different reasons for the open/shallow fermenter but they've all agreed that there should be a different flavor profile I'm just not completely sure it carries over to the homebrew world or not hence the experiment. Unfortunately due to a crazy series of events documented in this thread this experiment probably won't prove anything either way.

Can't say as I get into the Belgians too much so I'd appreciate it if you left those spores over there where they belong 😆. Although if this batch comes through uninflected with all the horrible practices I've done I'll have to reevaluate how easy that can happen.


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