Oops...I got the wrong yeast

[farmdog]

Hi everyone,

Just joined today as I stumbled across this great site when searching for yeast advice. Making my first ever batch of wine today...well, starting at least. A six gallon batch of blackberry wine following this recipe: http://howtomakehomemadewine.biz/201...y-wine-recipe/

Trouble is, I have the wrong yeast. His calls for either EC-1118 or Champagne Yeast.

What I have is:

• Red Star Cote des Blancs
• Red Star Premier Blanc
• Red Star Montrachet
• Lalvin 71B-1122

Not sure, but I think the Premier Blanc is a champagne yeast, so that could work. But what I'd like to achieve is a not too fruity wine and a drier wine.

Any thoughts on which yeast I should use?

Thanks so much, and excited to be here!

 

[bernardsmith]

Hi farmdog - and welcome. I think that you can safely use any of the packs of yeast you have to hand. But that said, I am always skeptical of anyone who posts a wine recipe. Typically such folk know just enough to create a disappointment when a novice like yourself assumes that the author must really know what he (or she) is doing. Often they don't. What you want - in my opinion - is a set of protocols not a recipe..
But by all means follow this recipe. My sense, however, is that you may be disappointed with the result but that won't be because you will have made a mistake. If the wine is not all that it could be it is because the author really knows enough to be dangerous but not enough to delight...
Here's why I say this:
Why does the author of the recipe suggest using champagne yeast? That is an aggressive yeast, it is best used to restart a stalled fermentation or to carbonate a wine that you want sparkling ... Why does the author suggest using only 2 lbs of fruit per gallon? ... sounds a mite thin in the flavor department. (me? For what it is worth , I might use about 10 lbs per gallon and no water) Wine makers who make wine from grapes don't dilute their grape juice with water... Why is this fellow suggesting that you drown your juice in water? I wonder what that juice tastes like before you pitch the yeast? My guess is that that author has never tried to taste his watery fruit juice but likes his weak tea sweet. But I wonder why the author is advising you to add specific amounts of sugar and is not asking you to measure the Brix or the gravity of the juice and add enough sugar to raise the gravity (or Brix) to say, 1.090 or thereabouts. Suggests to me that he may only know enough to get his readers into trouble but not enough to show them how to get out of the trouble that the author creates ... Why does the author suggest using 4 T of acid blend before you taste the wine to see if it in fact needs any additional acidity (that's like adding salt to a cooked dish before you taste it). But adding acidity to a must (the juice before you add (pitch) the yeast) is not always very wise...Yeast do not need additional acidity to ferment. In fact, quite the opposite, yeast cannot tolerate a pH that is close to 3 and unless you know how acidic your berries are, adding a bottle of lemon juice may be enough to prevent the yeast from working on the sugars in the must.
I have some other concerns - The author almost cooks the berries. Why? is he making jam? Does he want to set the pectins? If you allow the frozen berries to thaw they will produce a great deal of juice and there is no need to "extract" the juice by adding boiling water. If you add pectic enzyme you will prevent pectic haze that would likely form and you will also increase the amount of juice that will be extracted from the berries. So, with one hand he tries to set the pectins while with the other he tries to break those pectins apart...
My apologies for being so critical...

 

[farmdog]

Wow, Bernard, thanks for that wonderful education! You're right on, of course...I know not what I'm doing yet as it's all new to me. I do know how to make cheese as a professional artisan cheese maker, so I understand the intricacies of managing pH curves, culture, yeast and mold decisions and managing the aging process. But that's cheese.

The good news about his recipe and YouTube video was it got me to get started. I added the campden this morning and am scheduled to add the pectic enzyme tonight (should I still do that?), then pitch the yeast tomorrow morning. I'll plan on using the 71B-1122.

I did add water, but only half what he suggested. When I dissolved the sugar in 2 1/2 gallons of water it filled the 6 gallon bucket to the brim, due to 24 lbs of berries being in the bag. Of course, when I remove and squeeze that down the road it will free space, which he recommended topping off with water, but I had wondered why I'd want to dilute it like that. Sounds like you agree.

Regarding adding acid blend (which I've already done) without tasting, I do have a pH meter. Should I have tested pH for a specific range and let that influence my decision?

Thanks for your thoughtful reply!

 

[bernardsmith]

71B is a favorite yeast of mine as it has a special affinity for malic acid and it converts malic to lactic - a far less sharp and far less strong acid - so in my opinion, it tends to smooth out the flavors in wines that some other yeasts don't. (not sure but I think blackberries are rich in tartaric AND malic). 71B has one other strength - it is not a hog for nutrients that some other yeasts are (47D, for example) and so tends not to get as stressed and so does not produce hydrogen sulfide (smells like rotten eggs). 71B , though has one weakness and that is the dead yeast cells tend to break open and spill their enzymatic guts which the living cells cannibalize nnd which they then excrete as off flavors. Bottom line? You want to rack the wine more frequently when you use 71B - but 2 months (IMO) is OK.
Diluting with water only makes no sense to me. You can always (if you have the equipment) rack to a smaller fermenter - from say a 6 gallon carboy to a 5 gallon one and bottle and refrigerate any excess. Or you can begin with a larger volume than you intend to bottle (my PM about beginning with 1.25 gallons when you want to make 1 gallon). alternatively, you can top up with more juice or another similar wine.
I might gently squeeze the fruit if it's in a muslin bag once or twice a day and be sure to stir the juice to ensure that the bag is kept very moist. If you have weighted the bag so that it stay submerged so much the better but the CO2 will tend to force it up towards the surface.
Pectic enzyme tends not to work in the presence of alcohol so you want to add this about 4 or 6 hours before you pitch the yeast.
If you have already added the acid blend no problem. I would simply keep my eye on the fermentation. If the pH gets too low it may stop but if it is clearly ongoing - (you can see bubbles in the juice and when you take hydrometer readings you see the density falling as the sugar gets eaten up and is replaced by CO2 and alcohol) then there is no problem.
What I would do, though, is taste the must. It's going to be very sweet but you want to try to imagine this without the sugar and only with the fruity flavor. Knowing how must (the juice before you ferment it - it's the wine maker's term for what brewers call wort) tastes and then tasting the wine at different stages in the fermenting and aging process will help you gain a handle on where a recipe (ugh) will likely end up... To put this a different way: in cheese making you can rely on recipes but if your milk is too acidic or if the rennet you add does not give you a clean break when the recipe says to cut the curds or if after 40 minutes of stirring the curds are still not giving up enough of their whey then simply following directions will not produce the cheese you were planning to make. You need to know what it is that the author of the recipe assumed would happen with the curds and whey at each line of the recipe. These are living processes not engineering tasks and as a cheese maker you know when you read a recipe what is really supposed to be happening - (why do they say to raise the temperature so slowly? Why can you not add too much pressure too soon to the curds? What pH are you looking for when the recipe says to wash the curds?)...
Good luck!

 

[Maylar]

71B , though has one weakness and that is the dead yeast cells tend to break open and spill their enzymatic guts which the living cells cannibalize and which they then excrete as off flavors. Bottom line? You want to rack the wine more frequently when you use 71B - but 2 months (IMO) is OK.
Good luck!

For the record - the bad rap that 71B-1122 gets is an internet induced paranoia. I've had cider on 71B lees for a year with absolutely no off flavors. Maybe it's more prone to autolysis than other yeasts, but that doesn't happen in the context of home winemaking.

 

[farmdog]

To put this a different way: in cheese making you can rely on recipes but if your milk is too acidic or if the rennet you add does not give you a clean break when the recipe says to cut the curds or if after 40 minutes of stirring the curds are still not giving up enough of their whey then simply following directions will not produce the cheese you were planning to make. You need to know what it is that the author of the recipe assumed would happen with the curds and whey at each line of the recipe. These are living processes not engineering tasks and as a cheese maker you know when you read a recipe what is really supposed to be happening - (why do they say to raise the temperature so slowly? Why can you not add too much pressure too soon to the curds? What pH are you looking for when the recipe says to wash the curds?)...
Good luck!

Thanks again, so much, for the education. I can answer your cheese questions, but the wine decisions are a bit baffling to me at this point. But I learned with cheese by jumping into the vat and doing, so to speak. So I'm jumping into wine the same way!

Now to check the SG and pitch the yeast!

 

[farmdog]

Before pitching the yeast the SG was 1.12 and 15% alcohol according to the hydrometer. Hopefully that's normal.

 

[bernardsmith]

For the record - the bad rap that 71B-1122 gets is an internet induced paranoia. I've had cider on 71B lees for a year with absolutely no off flavors. Maybe it's more prone to autolysis than other yeasts, but that doesn't happen in the context of home winemaking.

I gotta say that I agree with you 100%. I use 71B all the time and have never experienced the problems that folk attribute to this yeast. However, I was simply offering (in this case) what many folk claim about this yeast - The problem may be more evident if wine makers allow their wines to simply sit on the gross lees for the duration but since the majority of wine makers use a bucket as their primary fermenter (and so will rack when the gravity drops to below 1.010) then sur lee (fermenting on the lees) only ever takes place on finer lees...