Old Ale and Molassas

[BitterSweetBrews]

I am brewing an 8 gallon batch of Old Ale next Weekend.

I was planning on adding some Blackstrap Molasses to the recipe. I am wondering how much I should add. I am going to have about 18lbs of grain.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Perhaps 8 fluid ounces. But be prepared to have the beer potentially taste downright nasty until it ages for about 4-5 months. Or at least that has been my experience from back when I messed with molasses, which I last did back in the 1990's. In other words, if you can't wait for the molasses to mellow out, don't mess with it. I learned my lesson the hard way. Hopefully you will have better luck with it than I did.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

That is interesting. I had read that it is a way to make it better earlier in the aging process. I was hoping to have something drinkable by New Years. I think I will start small. I can always add in the secondary.

 

[kevin58]

Molasses is processed typically in three steps. The first and second "runnings" if you will, are the lighter versions and what is left at the bottom is the blackstrap. It has a much more intense flavor than the others. Use it sparingly.

 

[deere322]

Get a good molasses that has a licorice character instead of bitter sugar.
Here are a few -

• Plantation Blackstrap Molasses

• Golden Barrel Blackstrap

I use the Golden Barrel. Tasty stuff.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

I’d go maybe an ounce to start, MAYBE 2 ounces at the most!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I am brewing an 8 gallon batch of Old Ale next Weekend.

I was planning on adding some Blackstrap Molasses to the recipe. I am wondering how much I should add. I am going to have about 18lbs of grain.

Depends how "British" you want to be with your Old Ale as blackstrap is not something that British brewers would ever use, although you can use it cut with sugar as a crude way to approximate the invert sugars that they do use. See this for details. But proper invert is better.

To get a feel for what actual British Old Ale recipes look like (without following them obsessively), take a look here.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Would Black Treacle be a better bet here?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Treacle's better, but you're best off thinking in terms of the darker inverts, using treacle or blackstrap in a blend to simulate invert if you don't actually invert your own sugar (which is not that difficult).

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I had always assumed that products such as Lyle's Black Treacle were invert sugars. This product is as dark or likely darker in color than Blackstrap Molasses.

Here is a video of making your own homemade Black Treacle:



Would this homemade product definitively be classified as an invert sugar? I'm aware from seeing actual Fuller's recipe sheets that they use various number classifications of invert sugar such as Invert #1, 2, 3, etc... Where would this sort of homemade product fall on this number line? I presume the numbers correlate with the darkness, with higher numbers being assigned to darker inverts.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Treacle doesn’t really fit on the invert scale, golden syrup is about 70% invert and is a loose approximation to invert #1 - see https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/golden-syrup.655474/ for a video. Yes higher numbers are darker but even #4 is nowhere near treacle

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

Get a good molasses that has a licorice character instead of bitter sugar.
Here are a few -

• Plantation Blackstrap Molasses

• Golden Barrel Blackstrap

I use the Golden Barrel. Tasty stuff.

I have picked up a bottle of Plantation Blackstrap at Whole Foods. I will probably use this.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

Depends how "British" you want to be with your Old Ale as blackstrap is not something that British brewers would ever use, although you can use it cut with sugar as a crude way to approximate the invert sugars that they do use. See this for details. But proper invert is better.

To get a feel for what actual British Old Ale recipes look like (without following them obsessively), take a look here.

These articles are interesting....and confusing. I have read other articles that say "You have to use Treacle". Then I check online and they say that Treacle is just another name for molasses. I have also made my own invert candi sugar for Belgian beers using table sugar and acid on the stove.

I Googled about invert sugars and molasses and they say that Molasses is an invert sugar. I found the following at:

https://www.essentialingredient.com.au/article/sugar/?v=7516fd43adaa

Invert Sugar

Invert sugar is made from a sucrose water solution (basic sugar syrup) that is heated with the addition of acid. Although invert sugar naturally occurs in honey, molasses and corn syrup, to name a few, it can also be purchased as a paste or syrup. It doesnt crystallise and it retains moisture. It is sweeter than sucrose (standard sugar), and when added to baked goods it will keep them moist longer. It also helps prevent ice formation in ice creams and sorbets. Therefore, it is used extensively in ice cream, sorbet, glazes and sauces, fondant and candy making. Fudge and caramel sauce are two more examples where the non-grainy texture afforded by invert sugar is important.

Molasses (also known as treacle)

There are a number of grades of molasses. The darker the molasses, the more bitter it is. Blackstrap molasses is usually the last extracted and is very dark as its sugars have been caramelised over and over and an effort to extract as much sucrose as possible. Most of the syrups available as molasses (or treacle) are a blend of molasses in various stages of caramelisation and sugar syrups. This is so the molasses can be sold in an almost uniform condition.

Molasses is generally added to a recipe for colour, flavour and moisture, rather than sweetness. This is why many recipes use molasses or treacle with sugar also added, such as gingerbread. Molasses is common in liquorice, baked beans, and barbecue sauce. Molasses are variably acidic, which makes them work well with bi-carbonate of soda as a leavening agent.

Golden Syrup

This is refinery syrup made from raw sugar filtered through charcoal to give it a clear appearance and delicate flavor.​

I may just add some candi sugar to the boil too.

The recipes in your article are not what I expected. No Treacle anywhere.

After searching previously for other recipes I came up with the following. Any feedback would be great. I am buying ingredients tomorrow (in about 20 hours).

Old Ale - 8 Gallons - BIAB
14 lb Marris Otter
3 lb Munich
1 lb Caramel 40
1 lb Caramel 120
4 oz Flaked Barley
4 oz Chocolate Malt
8 oz Blackstrap Molasses @ 15
4 oz Special B
2 oz Fuggle @ 60
1 oz East Kent @ 60
1 oz Fuggle @ 15
1 oz East Kent @ 15
1.5 tsp Irish Moss @ 10
Either
2 packs S04 Yeast or
2 packs Nottingham or Windsor or
a 1084 Irish Ale Yeast starter (which I may be too late for)

Any feedback is much appreciated.
Thanks

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

I had always assumed that products such as Lyle's Black Treacle were invert sugars. This product is as dark or likely darker in color than Blackstrap Molasses.

Here is a video of making your own homemade Black Treacle:



Would this homemade product definitively be classified as an invert sugar? I'm aware from seeing actual Fuller's recipe sheets that they use various number classifications of invert sugar such as Invert #1, 2, 3, etc... Where would this sort of homemade product fall on this number line? I presume the numbers correlate with the darkness, with higher numbers being assigned to darker inverts.

Good Video. I may just try this and compare it to the Blackstrap if I have the time tomorrow.

I would guess that this would be inverted sugar, at least the "burnt" sugar portion. I am not sure the last added sugar is hot enough long enough to invert, but I would probably guess it does.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Golden Syrup

This is refinery syrup made from raw sugar filtered through charcoal to give it a clear appearance and delicate flavor.​

​

It's rather more complicated than that as this video explains. But you have the problem of something that's quite a technical process, that has different traditions on either side of the Atlantic, and with different requirements for baking and brewing. So it's not surprising that "the internet" may appear a bit confused.

The recipes in your article are not what I expected. No Treacle anywhere.

If you mean Ron Pattinson's blog, that's because he is looking at actual records from commercial breweries, who used specialist brewers' sugars. The only sources that used treacle and syrup are older UK homebrew books, which used them as easily-available "hacks" to replicate not just different grades of invert but also specialist malts that weren't available to homebrewers back in the day. The problem is that these have become "gospel" for some people (who don't look at actual commercial recipes like Ron does).

2 packs S04 Yeast or
2 packs Nottingham or Windsor or
a 1084 Irish Ale Yeast starter (which I may be too late for)

If you're going dry then 1 each of Notty and Windsor supposedly goes most of the way to recreating an original brewery blend - I might be tempted to put the Notty in a day later though.

Not sure 1084 would be my first choice unless that's what you have in stock, if you're going Wyeast then I'd go more towards something like 1332?

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

​

It's rather more complicated than that as this video explains. But you have the problem of something that's quite a technical process, that has different traditions on either side of the Atlantic, and with different requirements for baking and brewing. So it's not surprising that "the internet" may appear a bit confused.



If you mean Ron Pattinson's blog, that's because he is looking at actual records from commercial breweries, who used specialist brewers' sugars. The only sources that used treacle and syrup are older UK homebrew books, which used them as easily-available "hacks" to replicate not just different grades of invert but also specialist malts that weren't available to homebrewers back in the day. The problem is that these have become "gospel" for some people (who don't look at actual commercial recipes like Ron does).



If you're going dry then 1 each of Notty and Windsor supposedly goes most of the way to recreating an original brewery blend - I might be tempted to put the Notty in a day later though.

Not sure 1084 would be my first choice unless that's what you have in stock, if you're going Wyeast then I'd go more towards something like 1332?

Thanks for the insight and advice.

Given my time constraint of having to brew Saturday, I don't think I will have the time to source the various specialty sugars. We are doing an American Homebrewers Association - "Learn to Homebrew Saturday" event with my beer club Saturday. I think I will go ahead with the Blackstrap, which is invert and as close to Treacle as I am going to get by then. I also may pick up some light molasses to use for part of the molasses portion to substitute for Golden Syrup (though not really close based on your video). I may go 50/50. I might even add a bit of flaked corn to the mash (I wonder if anyone has ever used corn syrup). I am a bit concerned that I am making my grist way too complicated and should just RDWHAHB.

I may just try the Windsor/Notty combination. I have used them separately but never together. Why would you add the Notty later? That sounds like a good idea.

I have always liked S-04 for British Ales and many other styles. It has been my go to yeast for a lot of darker styles such as stouts and porters. In the last month I have used it in an Imperial Stout and a Brown. The brown is fermenting on it now and I may be able to transfer it to secondary Saturday and use the yeast cake. I also have a couple packs of it in storage, so I could save some money. On the other hand, maybe it is time for a change. The 1084 is in my frozen yeast bank, but at this point there is no way I have enough time, to step it up. I had read somewhere that it was a good choice for an old ale and tolerated higher alcohol content.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I don't believe that Molasses is an invert sugar.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I think I will go ahead with the Blackstrap, which is invert and as close to Treacle as I am going to get by then. I also may pick up some light molasses to use for part of the molasses portion to substitute for Golden Syrup (though not really close based on your video). I may go 50/50. I might even add a bit of flaked corn to the mash (I wonder if anyone has ever used corn syrup).

I find it hard to believe that any kind of molasses could come close to syrup - if you look at the unholymess recipes he's approximating both invert #1 and syrup with 1% blackstrap mixed with white sugar. Personally, given the time constraints etc, I'd use one of Ron's recipes as a base, and approximate any inverts with blackstrap/sugar mixes. You really won't need much blackstrap.

I am a bit concerned that I am making my grist way too complicated and should just RDWHAHB.

Almost certainly!

I may just try the Windsor/Notty combination. I have used them separately but never together. Why would you add the Notty later? That sounds like a good idea.

You get the yeast character from the Windsor whilst it's in growth phase, pitching later just gives the Windsor a bit more time to grow before the higher performance of the Notty outcompetes it.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

I don't believe that Molasses is an invert sugar.

According to the article I referenced and copied a portion of above, they say that Molasses is an invert.

I would think it is from the heat needed to make it and from the multiple runnings standpoint. But I don't know if they add an acid to it during this process as you would when making candi sugar and if the acid causes the sugar split. They have to add something to keep it from crystallizing.

I like NBs ideas of mixing the blackstrap with some sugar and may try that. But, the more I complicate it, the more chance I have of screwing it up. This is my first Old Ale and I am sure it will be a learning experience.

Thanks.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

According to the article I referenced and copied a portion of above, they say that Molasses is an invert.

I would think it is from the heat needed to make it and from the multiple runnings standpoint. But I don't know if they add an acid to it during this process as you would when making candi sugar and if the acid causes the sugar split. They have to add something to keep it from crystallizing.

I like NBs ideas of mixing the blackstrap with some sugar and may try that. But, the more I complicate it, the more chance I have of screwing it up. This is my first Old Ale and I am sure it will be a learning experience.

Thanks.

Acid is a requirement for invert, and AFAICT it is not used to make molasses. It is used to make Black Treacle.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Acid is a requirement for invert

No it's not, acid is a catalyst that speeds up a reaction that can happen with heat alone. Acid/enzyme is normally used because it allows you to invert using milder conditions that don't fry your sugar.

Per the USDA, quoting C.E. Damon & B.C. Pettitt, 1980 J. AOAC 63 3 pp.476-480, aside from 22% water and 3% minerals, the carbohydrate content of molasses is split :
39% sucrose
17% fructose
16% glucose
28% other sugars

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

No it's not, acid is a catalyst that speeds up a reaction that can happen with heat alone. Acid/enzyme is normally used because it allows you to invert using milder conditions that don't fry your sugar.

Per the USDA, quoting C.E. Damon & B.C. Pettitt, 1980 J. AOAC 63 3 pp.476-480, aside from 22% water and 3% minerals, the carbohydrate content of molasses is split :
39% sucrose
17% fructose
16% glucose
28% other sugars

Thanks NB! Does that make molasses an invert sugar? If so, I may need to try it again sometime.

 

[Miraculix]

If you're going dry then 1 each of Notty and Windsor supposedly goes most of the way to recreating an original brewery blend - I might be tempted to put the Notty in a day later though.

Not sure 1084 would be my first choice unless that's what you have in stock, if you're going Wyeast then I'd go more towards something like 1332?

Great idea! I was just wondering what I will brew when I'll be back from holiday. That's sorted now. Chevallier/MO with Saaz and those two yeasts, notti delayed by 36 hours.

Thanks!

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Thanks NB! Does that make molasses an invert sugar? If so, I may need to try it again sometime.

Not NB, but that makes Molasses only partially inverted-- about 33% (fructose and glucose) with 39% "table sugar" not being inverted (sucrose) and 28% of other unknown sugars.

So, definitely not a substitute on it's own for invert.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

The brew day Saturday went well.

I did a two hour boil and added 6 oz of Plantation Blackstrap molasses at 15 minutes. I didn't blend in any other sugars, deciding to keep it simple.

I ended up with about 5.25 gallons of 1.070 wort and about 70% efficiency with my propane BIAB session (I usually get around 80% with electric). The wort tasted really good. I could really taste the molasses pre-fermentation.

I pitched a packet of Windsor Saturday night. The wort was at about 72 degrees. It cooled to 64 overnight. I will leave it there for the duration.

I was going to additionally pitch a pack of Nottingham on Sunday. I even went to a second LHBS to get a pack because my usual store ran out - right before I got there. Coincidentally, a guy I was in a BJCP judging class with was in the store and had grabbed their last packet for a blond ale, just before I walked in. I couldn't talk him out of it, so I bought a pack of Windsor and a pack of S-04. After I left, I decided to make the 15 minute drive to the other LHBS and get a pack of Nottingham. I figured they would probably have a pack and there is a third store about a block from them in case they didn't. Anyway, the airlock was rockin after only 15 hours on the Windsor and I decided not to pitch a second yeast. I am just going to let it ride with the single Windsor pitch and save the Notty and S-04 for other brews.

I like S-04 for its cleanness and have used it in an Imperial Stout and a Brown Ale in the last month. But, I have had problems with attenuation, it never seems to get below 1.018. I pitch at a healthy rate, am fermenting it at 62-64 and have even raised it to close to 70 at the end for a diacetyl rest. It just stalls. I am curious to see where the Windsor finishes.

Thanks to everyone for the comments and suggestions.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Does that make molasses an invert sugar?

Depends on what criteria. As far as a chemist is concerned, the definition of an invert sugar is a mix of sugars that rotate polarised light in the opposite direction to sucrose, even if it's just by one degree. Normally that's because you're converting sucrose (which twists light strongly one way) to fructose (strongly the other way) and glucose (a little the sucrose way). From memory the fructose "wins" and it officially becomes an invert when around half that sucrose has been broken down, so molasses is there or there abouts on the polarised light definition, it depends on the optical effects of the other carbohydrates.

But from a brewing point of view we don't care about polarised light, in reality we're interested in invert #1, invert #2 etc for the "contaminants" - the proteins, caramelised sugars etc that add flavour to our beer without affecting the invert-ness of the underlying sugar mix. Molasses is a member of the invert sugar family, but it tastes different to the main brewing inverts.

So it depends on why you're asking if it's an invert.

@ BSB - 1.018 seems quite reasonable on something like an imperial stout - what attenuation did you get in percentage terms? You've also got a fair bit of unfermentables in that and a brown, so you're not going to get huge attenuation with any yeast.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

@ BSB - 1.018 seems quite reasonable on something like an imperial stout - what attenuation did you get in percentage terms? You've also got a fair bit of unfermentables in that and a brown, so you're not going to get huge attenuation with any yeast.

You are probably right. Last week I threw some more harvested s-04 slurry into the Brown Ale. I checked it last night and it is now at 1.016 (it started at 1.050). That's about 68% AA. Fermentis says S-04 gets 82%.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Where do you get 82% AA from for S-04? The official Fermentis spec sheet has 75% AA for their standard wort, so you'd expect a few points less for something less fermentable.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

Where do you get 82% AA from for S-04? The official Fermentis spec sheet has 75% AA for their standard wort, so you'd expect a few points less for something less fermentable.

I found it somewhere on an S-04 spec sheet, although they have a couple out there and one does say 75% apparent attenuation in the 2016 and March 2018 ones.

If you look at the Fermentis comparison booklet, it shows 82%, but that isn't where I saw it. It was actually in one of the bubbles which was labeled "Attenuation" on another spec sheet. I tried to find it again, but haven't been able to yet. I think it may have been in a recipe section, maybe? Anyway, here is a link to their comparison booklet. They also say in the booklet, that all of their yeast can obtain an attenuation rate of between 80% and 90%

https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/ENGLISH_NEW_Make-a-choice_4p_sanstraits_BD.pdf

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I'd not seen those ester and residual sugar numbers before, that's interesting, thanks.

But they are kinda faking it with the 82% attenuation. As I said, it depends on the wort and conditions - they get 82% with a 100% pilsner wort @1.061 at 23°C, yet the official temperature range they recommend is 15-20°C. The 75% attenuation is on an unspecified wort at 20°C (68°F), so at least it's within the official range, albeit higher than most people would take S-04.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

It has been a little over a week. The Windsor yeast stalled out at 1.040. I am not totally sure why. I pitched 1 pack for 5.25 gallons. It is supposed to handle 1.070 wort. I roused it up last Friday by lifting the bucket and swirling it around. I also raised the temp to 68. Sunday, it was at 1.039. It tastes fine, with no off flavors. I don't think I under pitched.

I have another idea about why it may have stalled. When I doughed in, I know I misread the temp on my kettle thermometer. The water was 10 degrees high (one of the reasons I like brewing electric, set it and forget it). I didn't realize this until I looked closer at the round thermometer on the kettle. The initial mash temp was at 165, not 155. I recirculated and it took 10 minutes to get it cooled down. I am afraid the higher mash temp may have messed with some of the grain enzymes during the initial mash and now I may have a lot of unfermentable sugars. I have posted this on other boards and some people have said that 10 minutes at the beginning may not matter. I am not sure. I am just thinking that when mashing out you heat to 165 to stop the enzymatic conversions.

Anyway, with nothing to lose I decided to add some more yeast. Yesterday I made a small 1.030 starter with a pack of Nottingham. I did this so the yeast would already be going when pitched. I added it this morning. Time will tell.

 

[robdogj]

It has been a little over a week. The Windsor yeast stalled out at 1.040. I am not totally sure why. I pitched 1 pack for 5.25 gallons. It is supposed to handle 1.070 wort. I roused it up last Friday by lifting the bucket and swirling it around. I also raised the temp to 68. Sunday, it was at 1.039. It tastes fine, with no off flavors. I don't think I under pitched.

I have another idea about why it may have stalled. When I doughed in, I know I misread the temp on my kettle thermometer. The water was 10 degrees high (one of the reasons I like brewing electric, set it and forget it). I didn't realize this until I looked closer at the round thermometer on the kettle. The initial mash temp was at 165, not 155. I recirculated and it took 10 minutes to get it cooled down. I am afraid the higher mash temp may have messed with some of the grain enzymes during the initial mash and now I may have a lot of unfermentable sugars. I have posted this on other boards and some people have said that 10 minutes at the beginning may not matter. I am not sure. I am just thinking that when mashing out you heat to 165 to stop the enzymatic conversions.

Anyway, with nothing to lose I decided to add some more yeast. Yesterday I made a small 1.030 starter with a pack of Nottingham. I did this so the yeast would already be going when pitched. I added it this morning. Time will tell.

how did you Ole Ale turn out?

 

[smata67]

I bottled Jamil's Old Treacle of Mine recipe two months ago. Used the recommended Lyles Black Treacle and London Ale WLP013. Pretty much loyal to the recipe in Styles, except I went with 5 oz instead of 8 oz of treacle for a 5G batch. Good thing. The treacle flavor comes through VERY strongly, I would recommend not using any more than 1 oz/gallon of treacle. I'd probably go with .5 oz/gallon if I could do over so the flavor comes through more subtly. Mine finished a tad high at 1.024, but this particular batch was 50/50 LME/grain, so not surprised. Still, got 71% attenuation out of WLP013, which is right in the middle of its range. It actually drinks very smoothly given how young it is and its 8.5% ABV, but I intend on keeping off of it for another 4 months.

 

[BitterSweetBrews]

how did you Ole Ale turn out?

It has been a year, but as I recall it was not what I expected. It was a good beer but not what I would consider an old ale when compared to something like Old Rasputin or Founders Curmedgons Better Half.

I made it again last fall and brewed on my electric system this time. I added a little more molasses. This time the OG was 1.075 and the FG 1.020. It turned out really good and the other members of my beer club really liked it.

I actually entered it into the AHA HomebrewCon contest, but unfortunately it looks like it will never be graded with the virus situation..

 

[rshortt]

So when you re-brewed the only recipe change was more molasses?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

It has been a year, but as I recall it was not what I expected. It was a good beer but not what I would consider an old ale when compared to something like Old Rasputin or Founders Curmedgons Better Half.

That may be a question of expectations. Isn't Old Rasputin a Russian stout? And Better Half is 12.7%, which is double the typical old ale. Your argument might be more convincing if you were comparing to commercial British examples.

Remember that essentially these beers represent a folk memory of the old stock ales, it's best to think of them as strong members of the mild family, with some aged characteristics (either through actual ageing or faking it a bit). It's perhaps most obvious with some of the southern old ales like Harveys, which is 4.3% on cask and only 3.6% in bottle (and I've just noticed they now do a 0.5% version, which I'm now really interested to try). But even the northern ones which tend to be rather stronger, tend to be only up in the 6% range give or take - the Gale's one at over 10% really is an exception.