Ok, i'm going to try natural lagering...

[Mike-H]

Tell me if this will work... I live in Syracuse NY so we get pretty cold pretty fast... The outside temperature goes from 38(night)-55(day) around this time of year. This would seem that I could ferment in my garage, and then lager in my kegerator which stays at 30 degrees. What do you think?

 

[ayrton]

I think 30 is going to make you 5 gallons of beercicles. Try 34.

Note: I have never lagered. I am just going by what I've read.

 

[the_bird]

I'd be more worried about not having a consistent temp than the absolute level. I wouldn't want the ambient temp to have such a large range. Isn't that why they used to lager in caves, because the temperatures would be more consistent?

 

[Brewpastor]

Go buy one of those cheap thermometer that record high and low and see what you are dealing with. I used a crawl space when I lived in Ohio for this same reason and it worked fine.

 

[MattD]

If you immersed the fermenter in a larger mass of water, the water should act sort of like a thermal buffer to lessen those temperature swings. How much effect it would have I don't know, and would likely depend on just how much water you used for the buffer. In theory it would work though.

 

[Mike-H]

If you immersed the fermenter in a larger mass of water, the water should act sort of like a thermal buffer to lessen those temperature swings. How much effect it would have I don't know, and would likely depend on just how much water you used for the buffer. In theory it would work though.

Nice thanks for the idea! I will try that....

 

[Mike-H]

Nice thanks for the idea! I will try that....

It is my understanding that there is always a difference between water (liquid temp) and ambiant temperature. I wonder if I can use my basement for this.... I am going to set glasses of water around different area's of my house and take their temperature after a while. Could someone please explain water as ambiant temp for me? It is my understanding that liquid temp will never = air temperature.... I.E. if there air in your house is 70, the liquid temp may be 65.... So higher ambiant, lower liquid... But it seems to change doesnt it... if my freezer is set at 33 degrees the liquid temp might be 35! So lower ambiant, higher liquid....

 

[Dr Malt]

Jackle:

I live in the northwest where our winters are 42 degrees F with drizzle. I switch to lager beers every year around the end of October when the temperature is getting in the 40's. I brew in my garage and the concrete floor maintains a very consistent temperature unlike the air temperature. I ferment and age my lagers in my garage. The temperature of the initial fermenting beer is in the mid 50's as the primary fermentation generates some heat. Once I rack to secondary fermentation, the temperature slowly drops to 45 - 50 F with the glass carboy sitting on the concrete floor. I let it sit for about 4 weeks. I don't really lager in the textbook sense of the word, but my lager beers are excellent. Sitting at temperatures in the mid to high 40's works fine. I also have very soft water which is great for lagers.

So, if you have a concrete floor and consisitent temperatures is in the 45 - 50 degree range, you can make good lagers without the 30 degree temperatures. It appears that a consistent temperature is key in lagering

Dr Malt

 

[Mike-H]

Excellent! Indeed I do have a concrete floor I just put a glass of water out there on the concrete with a thermometer in it. I will check it at various times of the day. Its getting cold here fast though, I hope I didnt miss it! I'd like to get at least 3 lager's while I can! I guess there are 2 times of year I can lager and the rest is all Ale's. Early fall and early spring... Better than nothing! The High in october is 59 and low is 39, this should give me near 50 hopefully on the concrete... The high in november is 46 and the low is 32, i'm guessing that's too late!

Jackle:

I live in the northwest where our winters are 42 degrees F with drizzle. I switch to lager beers every year around the end of October when the temperature is getting in the 40's. I brew in my garage and the concrete floor maintains a very consistent temperature unlike the air temperature. I ferment and age my lagers in my garage. The temperature of the initial fermenting beer is in the mid 50's as the primary fermentation generates some heat. Once I rack to secondary fermentation, the temperature slowly drops to 45 - 50 F with the glass carboy sitting on the concrete floor. I let it sit for about 4 weeks. I don't really lager in the textbook sense of the word, but my lager beers are excellent. Sitting at temperatures in the mid to high 40's works fine. I also have very soft water which is great for lagers.

So, if you have a concrete floor and consisitent temperatures is in the 45 - 50 degree range, you can make good lagers without the 30 degree temperatures. It appears that a consistent temperature is key in lagering

Dr Malt

 

[Mike-H]

Looking at this chart for averages, I shoould plan to lager Late August -> Early November and Late April -> Early June. Sitting on concrete,submersed in a bucket of H20, enclosed from teh elements and sun should give me little variance in the termperature. That is a solid 4 months of lagering during the year, I think I can handle that for natural lagering!

http://www.weather.com/outlook/heal...hly/graph/13159?from=36hr_bottomnav_allergies

 

[dougjones31]

No need to worry about what the ambient temp is, since the temp of the liquid is what matters. Your glass of water measuring is perfect. Make a chart and check the temps 3 or 4 times a day to see the varience.

Putting your carboy in water is the perfect way of buffering the temp varience. The water will act as an insulator to keep it warmer at night and cooler during the day. I would find a bucket big enough to hold water and the carboy and then test the water temps with the carboy full of water since the mass will affect the system. You would want 8-12 inches of water around the carboy to maximize the buffer effect. You would also want to have some sort of cover to insulate the top. Maybe an old wool blanket....


You could even fine tune your temp by adding hot or cold water several times a day if you find that the temp varience is too much.

 

[dougjones31]

Then again....it would be less hassle to spend $50-$100 on a yard sale fridge.

 

[the_bird]

I like this idea, I might try it at some point in the not-too-distant future. The water bath is a real good idea. For me, a fridge isn't an option because I don't have an extra outlet in the basement, and no power in the garage, and no room in the house (plus you need to buy a controller, and pay more on the electric bill...)

 

[Mike-H]

Yea, I'm with you.. I actually have the room & money for a fridge but I like the concept of doing things cheaply using nature... Hey if I can lager 4 months out of the year for free I'm going try it With all that I have learned on this board about brewing, there are some very economical ways to make beer, the challenge of making good beer very cheaply is pretty appealing to me.


Doug, unless i'm missing something (and please point it out if I am), I dont see TOO much of a hassle in this process... the thing is basically just sitting there right? There's not a lot of maintenance and no real building of equipment.... Your "hassle" suggestion has me concerned hehe.

I like this idea, I might try it at some point in the not-too-distant future. The water bath is a real good idea. For me, a fridge isn't an option because I don't have an extra outlet in the basement, and no power in the garage, and no room in the house (plus you need to buy a controller, and pay more on the electric bill...)

 

[the_bird]

I would think of "hassle" perhaps in terms of having to check it fairly vigilantly, having to be concerned if we have an Indian Summer period, that kind of stuff.

Have you checked out the "son of fermentation chiller" thread? I'm thinking of building something along those lines in my basement. If I'm thinking of it right, basically an uber-insulated box, chilled using ice and a small fan, with the fan being controlled by a thermostat. That's a little more complicated, but might let you do lagers throughout the year (be nice to brew a lager in April or May to be ready for the summer).

 

[Mike-H]

Well I think your "hassle" suggestion is related to adding hot/cold water several times per day to adjust the temp variance... No way will I do this Not that I dont like your suggestion but you are right, i'm not looking for a "hassle" like that and it would prompt me to purchase a fridge. I'm HOPEING and pretty much expecting very little variance in the temperature. Here are my thoughts on this:

--The garage has a concrete floor, this temperature probably remains fairly constant.
--It is protected from sunlight, wind, and other elements.
--A swimming pool does not vary temperature from day and night (in regards to ambiant temp, a heated pool may lose a lot of heat over the night, but a pool at ambiant temp will not change that drastically in 1-2 weeks time in a sheltered environment, thus quantity of water is really relavant to this project.
--I like the idea of insulating the top of the carboy... I actually have a big cooler made of stryrofoam that the carboy can sit in with water around it.
--I'm also thinking 1-2 foot plastic kiddie pool might work as it holds a lot of water.

My goal over the next few days is to get a glass of water to reach a stable temperature of 45-55 degree's, I will submerse this water in an aluminum trash can, hopefully the concrete floor will transfer its coolness through the trash can... if I can do this by Saturday, the project is a go!

 

[Mike-H]

Yes I have seen the sun of a fermentor design... Pretty neat and I considered it, but I'm going to try this first then maybe go to that..

I would think of "hassle" perhaps in terms of having to check it fairly vigilantly, having to be concerned if we have an Indian Summer period, that kind of stuff.

Have you checked out the "son of fermentation chiller" thread? I'm thinking of building something along those lines in my basement. If I'm thinking of it right, basically an uber-insulated box, chilled using ice and a small fan, with the fan being controlled by a thermostat. That's a little more complicated, but might let you do lagers throughout the year (be nice to brew a lager in April or May to be ready for the summer).

 

[Mike-H]

I just checked the temp of my coffee mug that is sitting in my garage on the concrete (3:50 PM) . It is at 52 degrees... It is NOT surrounded by water or anything and it is an extremely small volume of water that is probably pretty suseptible to temp change. I will check it again tonight around 7 and again before bed and in the morning. I will update this thread with the temps if anyone is interested.

 

[Mike-H]

I opted to use Saflager-23 for the lager yeast that I will be brewing this weekend.... Accrding to the website:

http://www.fermentis.com/FO/EN/pdf/SaflagerS-23.pdf#search="saflager"

Recommended temps are 48.2-59.0 F with a perfect temp of 53.6 (of which I am at 52(Near Perfect!) They also note that you can do it at 48.2 but you must increase the pitch dosage, look below:

Fermentation temperature: Recommended fermentation temperature: 9C – 15C, ideally 12C. (48.2-59.0, ideally 53.6)

Dosage: 80 to 120 g/hl for pitching at 12C – 15C. Increase dosage for pitching below 12C, up to 200 to 300 g/hl at 9C.

Can someone explain what they mean by "Increasing the dosage?" Can I just simply make a starter no matter what and be OK at any temp in that range???

 

[dougjones31]

You want to research your temps by using a carboy full of water inside whatever water holding buffer that you want to use. You want to make sure the temp of the water in the carboy does not vary more than 5 or 6 degrees by checking it every 4-6 hours.

Then armed with your data you can decide if the optimum temps can be maitained.

If you wing it and brew without testing then you might end up with temps that drop into the 40's and stick your fermentation.

The kiddie pool idea is not the best unless you are talking about a different kind of kiddie pool than I am thinking of. You want your water to be deep enough to come up to the level of the wort inside your carboy.

The biggest hassle with this system is that your temps will change throughout the year and I would think that cold and hot water additions would be necessary to keep the temp optimal for more than one batch.

 

[dougjones31]

Oh...Dosage....

Yes just make a 1 liter starter with 1 cup of DME and you will be fine. Your yeast will flourish at the recomended temps and survive +-8 degrees easily, but that + or - will affect your brew tremendously, so you want to stay inside the recommended temp range for sure.

 

[dougjones31]

Remember.....Fermentation temps have the biggest affect on taste of any factor other than ingredients.

Don't get outside the recomended temps. even 2 degrees will affect the taste.

Safelager has a tremendous range 48-59 degrees. I would shoot for a temp that stays between 50-55.

 

[dougjones31]

to maintain 50 degrees when it gets 35 outside may be tricky. After a few nights your water temp might fall especially if it does not get above 55-60 during the day.

You can see that a nightly addition of hot water might be neccessary to keep your system balanced and the temp up to 50.

Test...test...test.

 

[dougjones31]

I built a little thermostat controlled pump back about 10 years ago when I first got started brewing. It drew from 2 buckets...one with hot water and one with ice water. It was able to maintain +-1 degree easily. The hassle was trying to ice water in it during the summer. In the winter I added a heating element to the hot water bucket.

All said.....my $50 fridge and $60 controller was well worth it.


You can make things work in alot of different setups, but each has it's downfall and maintenance. You decide what is worth it to you.

 

[Pumbaa]

It is my understanding that there is always a difference between water (liquid temp) and ambiant temperature.

Thats only partly true. Water takes more energy to warm or cool so it usually lags behind ambient temp. Water will also tend to be cooler then ambient temp because of evaporation too, but that depends on the surface area of the water expossed to the air, the humidity of the air and the rate of evaporation. Thats why when I used to run tropical fish tanks my tank heater would always kick in even though I kept my apartment at 80degrees in the summer and I tried to keep my tanks at 80degrees.

 

[Mike-H]

Well I am not worried about temperature changes throughout the year as I only plan on lagering during those specific 2 month period (that happens 2 times per year) where the "average temp" is in the range of lagering temps. So with the concrete, some insulation and water surrounding the carboy I am hoping I can maintain that "average" temp even during off times..... We shall see!

Here's an update on my uninsulated "glass" of water.....

Outside Temp Change At 3:30 PM at last reading the outside temp was 50 degrees. The outside temp now says 32 degrees at 7PM. I'm pretty sure my outdoor thermometer is a little off as

My "Glass" of water has changed 1/4 of a degree sitting on the concrete floor and now reads 51 & 3/4.

I am going to fill up a plastic water jug now and put it inside my big stryofoam cooler. This should provide a more realistic estimate over the next few days.

 

[Mike-H]

Thats why when I used to run tropical fish tanks my tank heater would always kick in even though I kept my apartment at 80degrees in the summer and I tried to keep my tanks at 80degrees.

Brilliant!!! I wonder if a fish tank heater can maintain water in a stryofoam cooler @ 52 degrees, this could provide PERFECT lagering throughout the winter!!!!!

 

[Mike-H]

http://www.circlepet.com/products/Aquarium_Heaters.htm

Fish tank heaters, amazing!

These are completely submersible.... I imagine al you'd need is the 50 watt glass heater!!!!

 

[Mike-H]

I wonder if you could actually submerse a fishtank heater IN the carboy!!!!

 

[rod]

the glass part of a sumbersible heater could be sanitized but i am unsure if the cord is food grade and could leach unwanted flavours into your wort.
i had fish tanks for 12 years or so and never saw a heater that could be adjusted as low as 52 degrees