OK I did something really wrong with this heatstick

[ThreeDogsNE]

For my four heatsticks I drilled and tapped the metal flange at the base, and wrapped the ground wire around that. It's all under silicone sealant. They have continued to work for several brews. I don't understand the love for JB Weld for this application. I used White Lightning 100% silicone sealant sku 23275 09010. Found it at the local Menards. It meets FDA requirements for food use. Other makers have similar products. It remains flexible, so I could take the things apart if I had to.

Mine are 1500 watts each, run one per circuit on 15 amp GFCI circuits in my basement shop area. Doing 10 gallon batches, it takes the four of them get a decent boil. I have rather wide pots (Mega-Pots), so I may have more evaporative water and heat loss than folks using keggles.

 

[Quaffer]

Sorry, but the ground is for protecting property, not you. That's what GFCI is for. A properly grounded circuit will happily pass current through you until you're thoroughly dead and never miss a beat.

Nonsense. Perhaps you are thinking of the function of circuit breakers rather than grounding? Circuit breakers protect property, specifically the wiring in our houses, but grounding is used to protect against electrocution. Granted, GFIs do a better job of it, most of the time, but before we had GFIs we had to rely on grounding for protection. Yes, you can get killed by touching a grounded object if you also touch a hot wire somehow. The idea, though, is that if the hot wire comes lose inside an appliance and it comes in contact with its metal exterior, the grounding of the same protects the user from touching an electrically hot surface. That grounding appears to have been what protected the OP in this thread. Had it not been for grounding, he may have had to take the initial shock before the GFI tripped.

 

[Shooter]

Big +1.

I did the heatstick thing at Basic Brewing's request, but I'm still not a fan of them. Just commit a kettle to brewing (you will eventually anyway) and mount the element into it.

Hmm, until you said this, I never put two and two together. So, I guess it was YOUR instructions that I used to build my heatstick?

I use the heatstick to speed along my boil and for tasks like heating up my strike and sparge water. I only use the gas burner for the actual boil. Anyway, the stick works like a charm, but I treat the thing like it could kill me at any point. I figure it's the best course of action when using one.

 

[Quaffer]

Thank god you're not an electrician.

Obviously, neither are you.
You do not have to take my word for it. Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia's article on grounding which most closely apply to a heat stick. Highlights are mine.

Equipment bonding conductor. The purpose of the equipment bonding conductor is to provide a low impedance path between non-current-carrying metallic parts of equipment and one of the conductors of that electrical system's source so that should these parts become energized for any reason, such as a frayed or damaged conductor, a short circuit will occur and thus cause an overcurrent protection device such as a circuit breaker or fuse to activate and disconnect the faulted circuit. Note that the earth itself has no role in this fault-clearing process[1] since current must return to its source, not the earth as is sometimes believed[citation needed] (see Kirchhoff's circuit laws). By bonding (interconnecting) all exposed non-current carrying metal objects together, they should remain near the same potential thus reducing the chance of a shock. This is especially important in bathrooms where one may be in contact with several different metallic systems such as supply and drain pipes and appliance frames. The equipment bonding conductor is usually also used as the equipment earthing conductor (see above).

 

[P-J]

EE trumps Wikipedia any day.

Nothing to see here. Move along.

Your attitude is showing and it is very apparent.

Check out the NEC. You will be amazed.

You might even learn about the pure BS that is stated about the 80% "rule" that is so often quoted on this forum (and other forums).

 

[Quaffer]

EE trumps Wikipedia any day.

Nothing to see here. Move along.

You know, jkarp, 100% of our interactions have been initiated by you "correcting" my post. I am not kidding, 100%. And in at least two occasions you have shown yaw-dropping ignorance of electrical principles. It is hard to believe that you actually hold an EE degree. So often, people that toot their horn about their degree(s) are usually the least knowledgeable. Since you brought it up, I hold a Batchelor of Science in Electrical Engineering degree, and I am a licensed Professional Engineer (PE) in the state of Washington. Ignorance is OK, we all have to start somewhere, but isn't it time you stop correcting posts when you barely know what you are talking about?

 

[dobeluvr]

Your attitude is showing and it is very apparent.

Check out the NEC. You will be amazed.

You might even learn about the pure BS that is stated about the 80% "rule" that is so often quoted on this forum (and other forums).

Yep, check NEC article 210.2, which real basically states add up all continuous loads and multiply by 1.25 to find the overcurrent protection needed. (using some basic math you can do the same by multiplying by 80% or .8 times the size of breaker to find out how much continuous load you can have on the circuit. There are exceptions, but for most applications the 80% rule is effective.

Also, grounding is not for the protection of property. Grounding is the bonding of conductive material (ie frame of washing machine) to a ground in such a manner that if an energized conductor was to make contact with it it would trip the breaker. If you were to touch the bonded material (frame of the washing machine) you should be prevented from getting shocked as the breaker should have tripped. If you touch the energized section, you will regret it and get shocked until the circuit overloads... if it does. Safer.

A gfci on the other hand measures current leaving and returning to make sure they match. If it does not match it will trip thereby reducing the time and severity of the shock. Safest. (ps.. you will still feel it)

rdwhahb. degree or no degree how about just discussing without attacking

 

[dobeluvr]

"But what happens if the neutral gets shorted out to ground during construction? Anyone? Anyone?"

So, what does happen? (ground ties back to the exact same place in the panel as the neutral. Your words.) It will work fine. you can put a meter on it, the hot will read 115 volts to ground, the neutral will read 0 volts to ground. The pipe will read 0 volts to ground. You can touch it bare handed (not recommended) and not get zapped. Are you confusing a 120 volt element that has a neutral, with a 240 volt element, that does not have a neutral?

Don't for a moment trust the ground to save your ass.(your words again) I agree... but I would not trust the gfci to save it either. I would not trust anything electrical or mechanical either. Everything can and will fail.

 

[dobeluvr]

One more point and I'm out. Quiz time for dobeluvr:

1. Define a "continuous load". (it's in the NEC)
2. List the NEC allowed exceptions for the 80% rule. (they're significant for indoor brewers)
I haven't attacked anyone here. I haven't shown "attitude", and if you have misconstrued my words as such, use the ignore feature in your User CP on this board. I have. I *do* have significant hands-on, real-world, published, experience with electric brewing. Unlike too many here on HBT, I'm not armchairing this discussion from a code book.
Later gents.

So what, you think I cant read? Maybe you think I haven't seen the NEC? If that is not attitude what is. A quiz? really. If you wish to list "YOUR QUIZ" and discuss them, I'm game. But I only consult the NEC when I'm getting paid. Not to argue with someone. Heck, I may even learn something. Like you, I have extensive experience in the electrical field. "Hands on, real world, published experience with electric brewing"...well good for you. I still say that for the average person on here 80% is fine.
If you don't think so, tell me why, I dont do quizzes.

 

[dobeluvr]

OK, then please tell me which of the following (your words) still apply in this failure mode. Do you still define it as "working fine"? If a heatstick was built in such a way and was in operation with the chrome resting against the pot, would you be willing to touch said pot and the spigot on your sink?

of course, both the sink and the neutral are still grounded and at the same potential.

THE PROBLEM occurs when you have an ungrounded heating element and the hot conductor touches the chrome which is resting against the pot. Then the pot has 120 volt potential when compared to sink . That is when you get shocked. (assuming you have metal water pipes and not plastic)

 

[trigger]

jkarp,

Using ohm's law and incorrect variables is suspect to begin with. V=I*R

Basic EM from 200 level physics covers that whole thing about equal potential across a conductor. Granted the wiring is not an ideal conductor, but it's resistance is low enough in comparison to the load points in the circuit that it can be assumed to be negligible (<Z/10^3). By definition dV when traveling along any continuous path inside the conductor is 0 (this is assuming the absence of an external E or B of significance, a valid assumption in your kitchen). Since the neutral and ground are bonded by conductors without significant resistance, they form one continuous conductor. So you are left with V=0. Applying Ohm's law, I=0 for the path through the body.

If there is significant resistance between the neutral and ground (0 V), then significant current could be carried through the body, but this is a case of a faulty ground.

Don't believe me? Stick the probes of your multimeter in the neutral socket and ground socket of a 3-prong receptacle in a duplex receptacle. Plug your toaster into the other receptacle and turn it on. Set your multimeter to 200 VAC. You'll see 0. That's because they're at the same potential. You could even plug in a light between these two points. It won't light up cause there's no EMF, and therefore no I. Because the duplex receptacle is tied together it's exactly equivalent to the situation with the heat stick.

So where's the current going? Back through the 0 resistance paths, but effectively nowhere. Doesn't matter as long as it's at 0 potential relative to ground (that's why they call it ground...).

 

[trigger]

... PLEASE make sure you're using them in GFCI outlets.

True.

"Both the ground and neutral are bonded so BOTH are now providing the return current path. There *IS* no ground, in other words. If you were to touch the pipe (or kettle touching pipe) and a ground while the heatstick is in operation, YOU become an additional current path."

This only works if there is a potential difference between the pipe and ground. If there is no load between (Z = R ->0+) the hot lead and ground, then I = V/0 -> +infinity. This creates an overcurrent that will trip the breaker. When this happens and contact is made with the pipe the body acts as a resistor in parallel. In this case Zeq = Z1*Z2/(Z1+Z2) for a purely resistive load, Z=R. Setting Z1 = 1500 and Z-> 0 then solving, the limit becomes 0. Looking at this another way, and assuming 30A circuit protection that has not tripped, V = I*Z and since we're dealing with resistive loads Z = R, then V = I*R. Again, Z1 = 1500 and Z2 -> 0. V is the same for both paths (they begin at the same point and terminate at the same point in terms of potential). Therefore, V1 = V2 = V -> 0. The point rule indicates that the sum of the currents at the branch point must equal 0, so 30A = I1 +I2, and the ratio of the branch currents is equal to the ratio of their reciprocal resistances, I1/I2 = Z2/Z1. Now that you have 2 equations and 2 unknowns pick you favorite method for solving them and come up with I1 = 0A and I2 = 30A. Again, the real world doesn't behave as an ideal system, but the assumptions are valid when your threshold is 0.1A and the resistance in the ground wire is greater than three orders of magnitude less than that of the body. The great thing about this relationship is that since the potential between where the brewer contacts the circuit and ground is the same as that for the ground fault path if the ground is properly installed. Therefore it holds for any value of V. This is why birds and squirrels can contact high voltage transmission lines without becoming flash BBQ'd.

If the person in question were to touch the hot leg prior to the element without the hot leg being offered a low resistance path to ground then there is a problem and your example becomes valid. Similarly, if there is no ground and the person becomes the only path across which there is a dV to ground (touches a hot lead in an open circuit) then they becomes that path and suffer for it. However, these are not pertinent to your case wherein the circuit is properly grounded and the person contacts the neutral line or the hot line comes in contact with the properly grounded tube.

In reference to that article, it's from the interweb. Didn't you just put down someone for a Wikipedia ref? Also, if you read that article that you provided the danger is when the person becomes the path to ground, which happens when connecting or disconnecting the normally designed path to ground. Again, dV along the path is required, and if the ground were still connected the person and the ground would be at the same potential.

One last thing to think about. If there were an electrocution risk from touching a properly installed ground, why would all the metal cases be grounded and uninsulated?. Shouldn't my March pump have a protective insulator that prevents the metal body, which is grounded, from possibly coming in contact with me (including the mounting screws and anything they touch)?

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

I think I received a near fatal shock from trying to figure out what the hell all of you are saying. Obviously I have no business messing around with this stuff. =p

 

[wildwest450]

And you people wonder why I won't talk about electricity here. Question answered.




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[Ohio-Ed]

And you people wonder why I won't talk about electricity here. Question answered.




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Are you just pouring gasoline because you like to watch the fire?

 

[wildwest450]

Are you just pouring gasoline because you like to watch the fire?

Pouring? You're ankle deep in it if you read this thread.
And no, it's simply how many electrical threads end up here. shrug.

_

 

[Dgonza9]

Well, I've been using heat sticks for 6 months. Now I'm having a freak out. And just the other day one of mine failed, popping the GFCI. I"m guessing because I over thinned the JB Weld to pour it into the J bend.

I might switch to mounting in the keggle. Regardless, I plug my heat sticks into a switched GFCI and never touch anything unless that switch is off... although, of course I wind up doing it sometimes when adding hops and what not. Yikes.

The thing about keggle mounting to me is that I don't want to be dumping a keggle I'm cleaning with cords hanging off it... and I'd need at least two elements as I don't have a 220 GFCI circuit.