Official Lambic.Info thread

[LukeAleTime]

My issue with "sour ale" (as an Untappd moderator, at least) is that it's not obvious that it's a specific category. So naifs will put literally anything that's sour in as that, even if it would be better as some other style (Flemish Red, for instance). I also tend to think that people are way too literal about the country thing, clearly you can make a Belgian Pale Ale (or whatever) in other countries, it's not an actual appellation.

Having a distinction between Wild Ale (a sort of "none of the above" for beers that contain non-sacc yeasts) and Coolship Ale seems fine to me, but I'd really be annoyed if "Sour Ale" became a thing. No one calls Barleywines/Stouts "Sweet Ales".

I flip flop on this issue a whole heap. 6 months ago I was in complete agreement with you. In a months time I'll probably change my mind.

At the moment I see "sour ale" like any other style that could have endless variations. But we expect the brewer to add a little more such as "WC IPA", "Saison with brett", "sweet stout" It's the overarching category and the specifics get added where needed.

In the case of stout, we have "dry irish" or "milk stout". Which isn't too far from saying "Flemish style sour ale" or "Lambic style ale". I guess we are stuck with the "style" if we want protect the original terms. So that makes things clumsy.

 

[duketheredeemer]

My issue with "sour ale" (as an Untappd moderator, at least) is that it's not obvious that it's a specific category. So naifs will put literally anything that's sour in as that, even if it would be better as some other style (Flemish Red, for instance). I also tend to think that people are way too literal about the country thing, clearly you can make a Belgian Pale Ale (or whatever) in other countries, it's not an actual appellation.

Having a distinction between Wild Ale (a sort of "none of the above" for beers that contain non-sacc yeasts) and Coolship Ale seems fine to me, but I'd really be annoyed if "Sour Ale" became a thing. No one calls Barleywines/Stouts "Sweet Ales".

My only problem with the term "wild ale" in general is that it's often applied to beers that don't use wild yeast. If you're using an axenic strain of Brett that's been propagated by White Labs for the last decade and a half, I'd say it's not wild any more, but perhaps that's getting kind of pedantic.

I think a lot of the trouble stems from there being so much diversity in the category that's it's hard to call them much other than "Wild Ales" because they use strains of yeast that are broadly painted as wild, or "sour ales" because they use sour as a primary flavor. The other issue is that along with the group's diversity, there's not a whole lot of well-defined boundaries between different "AWAs" or "ACAs" or whatever you want to call them, though perhaps people will gravitate towards more distinct styles that will someday allow for this. Like hoppy sour beers form a category, sweet, dark sour beers another, etc., but right now I think you're right and the only way to cover it is to have a sort of "none of the above" category for beers that use non-Sacc yeast, whatever you want to call it.

 

[LukeAleTime]

Oh boy this is enjoyable:

http://www.lambic.info/Comparing_Old,_Young,_and_Unblended_Lambic

 

[SeaWatchman]

Oh boy this is enjoyable:

http://www.lambic.info/Comparing_Old,_Young,_and_Unblended_Lambic

That came out of probably a solid three weeks of early discussions on how to classify things on the site.

 

[thejukes]

Maybe I'm late to this party, and I'm definitely out of my depth.

What is wrong with a large grouping called "mixed fermentation ales"? They could then be broken into smaller groupings based on ingredients, geography, or arbitrary reasons.

This whole lambic thing is sort of a champagne/prosecco/sparkling white wine thing, IMO. I always thought it was strange to differentiate what is more or less the same beverage based on where it was made. That being said, I'm looking forward to educating myself on the new site. Nice work.

 

[duketheredeemer]

Maybe I'm late to this party, and I'm definitely out of my depth.

What is wrong with a large grouping called "mixed fermentation ales"? They could then be broken into smaller groupings based on ingredients, geography, or arbitrary reasons.

This whole lambic thing is sort of a champagne/prosecco/sparkling white wine thing, IMO. I always thought it was strange to differentiate what is more or less the same beverage based on where it was made. That being said, I'm looking forward to educating myself on the new site. Nice work.

I kinda like "mixed fermentation ale", though that's a very broad category. That said, I think that's probably what's needed, so that any beer that uses mixed fermentation but doesn't fall into one of the more specific styles will be caught by it.

LukeAleTime: I've added some new language to that section of the microbio page that describes the current problem with the name "AWAs" a bit. Let me know if it's better!

 

[LukeAleTime]

I kinda like "mixed fermentation ale", though that's a very broad category. That said, I think that's probably what's needed, so that any beer that uses mixed fermentation but doesn't fall into one of the more specific styles will be caught by it.

LukeAleTime: I've added some new language to that section of the microbio page that describes the current problem with the name "AWAs" a bit. Let me know if it's better!

Yep. I like that. I haven't actually heard anyone call them AWAs here in Australia yet tho. I am trying to preempt that.

Meanwhile I've been using the readability app to send pages to my kindle. I would recommend.

 

[Gestalten]

First off, excellent work on this! A massive contribution to the understanding of these beers worldwide.
Is this the preferred place to offer suggestions?

I always assumed AWA was a Talkbeer thing. Never seen it anywhere else. Its a relatively poor term specifically due to the "American" inclusion, which is a totally meaningless distinction (not that "wild" tells us much either). Especially when you consider the plethora of non-lambic sour and brett ales being made the world over since the dawn of civilization. It seems like an insult by exclusion to all the brewers (especially from Belgium) making stellar, non-Lambic sour ales (which don't really fit the category Oud Bruin, or Flanders Red, either.) It'd be a shame if it caught on.

While it isn't exactly poetry I'd vastly prefer "mixed fermentation ale" as the broadest category. I don't mind "sour ale" as broad category as well. Of course, It'd need to exclude beers only made with Brett, for which we need another category. If you look at barleywines historically they started with similarly vague and unwieldy names (not that barleywine is poetry either). (Not to mention Stout which brings up some many taxonomic problems it'd make your head spin.)

So you could break it down something like this (It should look like a bracket, but I don't know how to do it in a form):

Mixed fermentation Ale
/ \
Sour Ale Brett Ale
/ \
Sour Brown Ale, Sour Blonde Ale, etc. Brett Pale Ale, Saison Brett, etc.

Obviously I'm making some **** up there, but you get the point. It's way more useful if we leave countries out.
I think the problem comes when you then try to classify American attempts at Lambic and Gueuze. For my money I think countries should be kept out of this one as well. It doesn't matter that the brewers are American, It matters they are not in the Pajottenland. For this there is currently a trend for using "Pseudo-Lambic", or "pLambic". Which is fine but I don't like them much.
Perhaps "Neo Lambic"? It's nice and short, and has some historical taxonomic relevance. There's also "Lambic Style Ale", which is clunkier, but get's the point across.

 

[drbenzo1]

I was looking at the info on 3F VOG too find some info in the 2007 Vantentijin label. I didn't see much other than that it's a variable label. is the label just because of St Valentine's Day? Nothing more?

Cheers

 

[stupac2]

I was looking at the info on 3F VOG too find some info in the 2007 Vantentijin label. I didn't see much other than that it's a variable label. is the label just because of St Valentine's Day? Nothing more?

Cheers

That's always been my understanding. They bottled it on 2/14/2007 so they put that slightly different label on it.

 

[SeaWatchman]

I was looking at the info on 3F VOG too find some info in the 2007 Vantentijin label. I didn't see much other than that it's a variable label. is the label just because of St Valentine's Day? Nothing more?

Cheers

Yeah there's nothhng else different about it other than the label and both regular and synthetic corks were used.

 

[SasquatchMooseKnuckl]

Just toured the site for a bit. Absolutely fantastic work! Could get lost in there for hours.

Cheers, guys!

 

[drbenzo1]

Thanks SeaWatchman and stupac2, that's what I figured.
Cheers!

 

[pjl44]

Good start, but I think there's still work to be done before I migrate over from lambic.infowars

 

[drbenzo1]

Thanks SeaWatchman and stupac2, that's what I figured.
Cheers!

I'll be opening one in a few weeks at a tasting and I'll report back about the taste and the cork.

 

[SeaWatchman]

I'll be opening one in a few weeks at a tasting and I'll report back about the taste and the cork.

You can always join our facebook group and do that

 

[Forgetfu]

I was looking at the info on 3F VOG too find some info in the 2007 Vantentijin label. I didn't see much other than that it's a variable label. is the label just because of St Valentine's Day? Nothing more?

Cheers

That's always been my understanding. They bottled it on 2/14/2007 so they put that slightly different label on it.

I just updated the page.

https://www.lambic.info/index.php?title=3_Fonteinen_Oude_Geuze_Vintage#St._Valentijn_Cuv.C3.A9e

 

[brian4beer]

I just updated the page.

https://www.lambic.info/index.php?title=3_Fonteinen_Oude_Geuze_Vintage#St._Valentijn_Cuv.C3.A9e

Isn't there a 750ml bottling of OGV from Feb 2004 with Nighlights label? Don't see that one listed but I may be wrong.

 

[SeaWatchman]

Isn't there a 750ml bottling of OGV from Feb 2004 with Nighlights label? Don't see that one listed but I may be wrong.

callmemickey could answer that, I'm sure. There isn't one listed on his batch list (which is on the site and here too), but if there is some evidence otherwise that'd be good new info to have!

 

[drbenzo1]

Link?

You can always join our facebook group and do that

 

[SeaWatchman]

Link?

How could you have possibly missed it on the homepage? We're running a banner across the top right now!

 

[drbenzo1]

How could you have possibly missed it on the homepage? We're running a banner across the top right now!

I'm at the zoo and looking mobile

 

[drbenzo1]

When you switch to desktop it's there

 

[Forgetfu]

I'm at the zoo and looking mobile

Nice to know i'm not the only one who goes to the zoo to read Talkbeer and Lambic.Info

 

[SeaWatchman]

I'm at the zoo and looking mobile

Nice to know i'm not the only one who goes to the zoo to read Talkbeer and Lambic.Info

Forgetfu was literally walking his kids yesterday talking L.I business with me.

 

[SeaWatchman]

Thanks to brian4beer for submitting a picture for the newly logged bottling date 3F Oude Geuze Vintage: February 21, 2004 - 75cl

 

[SeaWatchman]

Also added Cantillon Asperule Odorante to end the weekend updates!

 

[LukeAleTime]

Question about TSG as mentioned on the Sweetened Lambic page

It guaranteed that any sweetened geuze would simply be called ‘geuze’ and any fully traditionally produced geuze would be called ‘oude geuze’, with the adjective ‘oude’ as a title that guarantees that the beer has been prepared the old, traditional way.

Is there an updated TSG document to this one that discusses the sweetened geuze/oude geuze difference?

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:1997:021:0013:0014:EN:PDF

I found the citation for the paragraph on google books, but the references page isn't available.

1. Tessa Avermaete and Gert Vandermosten, Traditional Belgian Beers in a Global Market Economy, 2009

Link: http://goo.gl/qUqptu

The HORAL page isn't clear when put through translate:

Additionally, this KB ignored the reality that there are two totally different productten, real Geuze and capsulekesgeuze, continued to bear the same name (see photo). Any subsequent adjustments, in 1973, 1974 and 1993, up to this reality beyond.

Capsulekesgeuze? Is that sweetened geuze? (couldn't find a mention of it on the site, and google only brings up three other sites mentioning that word; but the internet can't give me an english translation).

 

[tupacmoi]

Capsulekesgeuze mean in old Brussels speaking : small cap gueuze . It's not a real word
Funny you're speaking about this OGV sint Valentijn , i got 3 bottles from a récent trade

 

[SeaWatchman]

Question about TSG as mentioned on the Sweetened Lambic page

Is there an updated TSG document to this one that discusses the sweetened geuze/oude geuze difference?

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:1997:021:0013:0014:EN:PDF

I found the citation for the paragraph on google books, but the references page isn't available.

1. Tessa Avermaete and Gert Vandermosten, Traditional Belgian Beers in a Global Market Economy, 2009

Link: http://goo.gl/qUqptu

The HORAL page isn't clear when put through translate:



Capsulekesgeuze? Is that sweetened geuze? (couldn't find a mention of it on the site, and google only brings up three other sites mentioning that word; but the internet can't give me an english translation).

One of the big remaining pages that we have yet to publish is one that covers the various decrees, laws, etc. It's like trying to untie a giant knot, but we are getting there. Thanks for that PDF link, by the way.

Regarding Capsulekesgeuze, we mention it in the sweetened article but it is spelled Capsulekensgeuze on there (as that is how most sources spell it). Search that spelling on Google and you'll get a few more results. But yeah, essentially it's just ~25cl bottles that are capped and nothing else, generally sweetened. But I have been eying up ordering some 25cl Boon OG for the summer.

You can shoot me a PM about the Avermaete & Vandermosen source if you want to read the chapter. It's in a bigger book, but an informative chapter in general.