Off Colors???

[JordanD]

Hello all,

I am relatively new to homebrewing and have had great success... until this last recipe. This last one I brewed twice because I realized the first time I really screwed up water adjustments. It ended up tasting like hoppy acidic mineral water with an odd off-white to gray color, but the aroma was something dreams were made of (It was supposed to be a "juicy" IPA). So I dumped it and tried to do the same recipe again, but I omitted the water adjustment step thinking that was the issue.

The new batch which is now done, and tastes better but not great. Has a good aroma, but still has that same weird off-color. It tastes more on the bitter end... but there were no bittering additions.

So I got to thinking about what could cause it. Is my recipe just crap? Or do I need to invest in a new fermenter? I am still using the same bucket I have used for the last ten or so brews. How often should they be replaced? Or is it oxidation? I have been trying to clean as thoroughly as possible (with PBW and StarSan). Am I letting it soak in PBW for too long? Or not doing a good enough rinse? Just running through all the things that are possible haha.

The other thought I had which is probably the least likely but still possible was the type of hops... I found some Southern Cross hops at my local store and they seemed interesting. My girlfriend didn't like how they smelled, but I thought they were fine (she has a much better palate than me so maybe she was right). I couldn't find much out there in terms of people using these hops so it's hard to say what the opinion of them are. So who knows? Any feedback is appreciated. I am really trying to understand what is going on, I am a physicist so don't be afraid to talk in-depth, I prefer it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

What is your starting water and what are you adding?

Can you post the full recipe?

Also, welcome to HBT!

 

[JordanD]

What is your starting water and what are you adding?

Can you post the full recipe?

Also, welcome to HBT!

Starting water is just tap water. It's fairly neutral and has been fine for every other brew I have done. I have the actual profile written in my book at home so I don't have it with me.

Mashed at 152F for 60 minutes then mashout for 10 minutes at 170F.

Grain bill:

• Pilsner (2 row) Ger (2.0 SRM) - 6lbs. (70.6%)
• Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) - 1lbs. (11.8%)
• Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) - 1lbs. 8oz. (17.6%)

Hops:

• 4oz - Galaxy - Whirlpool (@165F)
• 4oz - Southern Cross - Whirlpool (@165F)
• 4oz - Galazy - Dry hop
• 4oz - Southern Cross - Dry hop

Yeast: Imperial A24

 

[Dgallo]

That’s a **** ton of hops for a 2.5-3 gallon batch. You dryhopped 8oz of Southern Hemisphere hop varieties so in sure the bitterness is “spicy”. They are loaded with polyphenols and when dryhopped in excess they show a spicy, hopbite character. That’s also could be why the color looks a little more gray than pale yellow. Now it’s a waiting game for you. It will prob take 2 weeks to a month for the hop particulate to drop out and the hop bite to fade. Gray coloring is also attributed to oxidation which this style is notorious for and when you’re using that much and are not close transferring, it’s bound to happen

 

[JordanD]

That’s a **** ton of hops for a 2.5-3 gallon batch. You dryhopped 8oz of Southern Hemisphere hop varieties so in sure the bitterness is “spicy”. They are loaded with polyphenols and when dryhopped in excess they show a spicy, hopbite character. That’s also could be why the color looks a little more gray than pale yellow. Now it’s a waiting game for you. It will prob take 2 weeks to a month for the hop particulate to drop out and the hop bite to fade.

It is a 5 gallon batch, but nevertheless I understand what you are saying. Its been in the keg for a week now so I should continue to let it settle then yeah?

 

[Dgallo]

It is a 5 gallon batch, but nevertheless I understand what you are saying. Its been in the keg for a week now so I should continue to let it settle then yeah?

Oh I was judging it off how little grain. What did it come out to? Below 4%

 

[Dgallo]

It is a 5 gallon batch, but nevertheless I understand what you are saying. Its been in the keg for a week now so I should continue to let it settle then yeah?

Double post *deleted*

 

[Cavpilot2000]

CHances are, with all that dry hopping, you are getting oxidized, especially if you aren't taking active measures to prevent it.

Are you bottling?

There are numerous threads about bottled NEIPAs turning muddy in the bottle.
The general consensus is that it is oxidation, which will be more pronounced in a bottle than a keg.

 

[RPh_Guy]

+1 oxidation. Beer Enemy #1

 

[JordanD]

Oh I was judging it off how little grain. What did it come out to? Below 4%

Yeah I believe it was close to around there. I actually broke my gravity meter while brewing it so I wasnt able to get an SG haha

 

[JordanD]

CHances are, with all that dry hopping, you are getting oxidized, especially if you aren't taking active measures to prevent it.

Are you bottling?

There are numerous threads about bottled NEIPAs turning muddy in the bottle.
The general consensus is that it is oxidation, which will be more pronounced in a bottle than a keg.

No I am kegging. This is only my second kegged beer. I have been bottling until recently.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

+1 oxidation. Beer Enemy #1

Truth.
And I know there are lots of people who say oxygen isn't a big deal and HSA doesn't exist, but there was once a time when people believed illness was caused by evil spirits or bad humors in the body. Then we learned about microbes and medicine is better off for it.
Those who don't believe in the evils of oxygen in brewing are like those people who "knew" illness was because of evil spirits and witchcraft and laughed at the people trying to educate them about bacteria and viruses.
Off rant.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

No I am kegging. This is only my second kegged beer. I have been bottling until recently.

It still happens with kegged NEIPAs, just faster with bottling.
Id still bet a paycheck you are seeing the "muddy" effect of oxidation in a heavily dry-hopped beer.

 

[shortyz]

oxidation is a weird one, ive done the same brew exactly the same and one went muddy the other didnt. the only thing that might have been different is when i added my dry hop. Someone suggested to add it nearing the end of fermentation to let the yeast take up the extra o2 you might put it.

anyone used cryo hops?

 

[Cavpilot2000]

oxidation is a weird one, ive done the same brew exactly the same and one went muddy the other didnt. the only thing that might have been different is when i added my dry hop. Someone suggested to add it nearing the end of fermentation to let the yeast take up the extra o2 you might put it.

anyone used cryo hops?

No experience with cryo hops, but...

yes, active fermentation will scavenge a good deal of the oxygen introduced during the dry hopping (the yeast will use it up).
Also the type of hops may make a difference - whole hops have so much more nooks and crannies for air bubbles full of oxygen to hide in, vs pellet hops, which by weight would introduce less O2.

 

[Dgallo]

Cryo are a nice addition. Slightly different flavor profiles than t90 pellets. When I do use them it’s typically in the whirlpool split with regular pellets. Usually 40% of the whirlpool I’ll use cryo. If I do dryhop with them I only use about 20% of the dryhop as cryo. I feel they have a greater impact hot side

 

[JordanD]

It still happens with kegged NEIPAs, just faster with bottling.
Id still bet a paycheck you are seeing the "muddy" effect of oxidation in a heavily dry-hopped beer.

Oh, I never disputed oxidation haha, in fact, I mentioned it as a possibility in the OP. But I am learning, so how much is too much? There is a trend of over hopping beers and most of those have significantly more hops then I added, so where is the difference? Should I try cutting everything in half?

Since this is a new hobby I don't have a good intuition for brewing yet.

P.S. I would have replied sooner but apparently, we are capped at 5 posts a day?

 

[RPh_Guy]

But I am learning, so how much is too much?

Everything you can do to limit oxygen exposure will help. It only takes a few parts per billion of oxygen to adversely affect the flavor/color.

I can't speak to the hop quantities.

Since this is a new hobby I don't have a good intuition for brewing yet.

Brewing isn't about intuition, it's about science, and figuring out which way to tweak things for your particular taste. Keep asking questions and trying different techniques and you'll be making great beer in no time!

Cheers

 

[Dgallo]

Oh, I never disputed oxidation haha, in fact, I mentioned it as a possibility in the OP. But I am learning, so how much is too much? There is a trend of over hopping beers and most of those have significantly more hops then I added, so where is the difference? Should I try cutting everything in half?

Since this is a new hobby I don't have a good intuition for brewing yet.

P.S. I would have replied sooner but apparently, we are capped at 5 posts a day?

So with 16 oz in a 5 gallon you’re are technically hopping at a rate of 6.2 lbs per barrel. Not unheard of but you Need to increase your anti o2 practices and tighten them up. I ferment in a large mouth carboy and have converted the cap into a keg essentially so that I can dryhop and cold crash under pressure and closed transfer rack into my co2 purged serving keg

This keeps my NEIPA bright even after 2 months in a keg and could probably go longer but I finish be for that. This beer has been in a keg roughly 3 weeks and has had zero negative change.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Oh, I never disputed oxidation haha, in fact, I mentioned it as a possibility in the OP. But I am learning, so how much is too much? There is a trend of over hopping beers and most of those have significantly more hops then I added, so where is the difference? Should I try cutting everything in half?

Since this is a new hobby I don't have a good intuition for brewing yet.

P.S. I would have replied sooner but apparently, we are capped at 5 posts a day?

It's not so much the amount, though anything more than 2 oz/gal is beyond the point of perceptible difference (saturation point) - it's the process.
If I had to guess, you probably let the beer ferment out, then added the dry hops to the primary, let it sit, then racked it into a keg?

Did you do anything to prevent oxidation during that time?
Did you dry hop in a secondary? That would have made the oxidation worse.
Did you fail to purge the keg before racking into it? That would have made it worse.

Limiting oxidation damage in a heavily dry hopped beer is a real challenge. It can be done, but you need to take numerous steps to do absolutely everything you can to prevent oxygen exposure to the beer.

 

[JordanD]

Brewing isn't about intuition, it's about science, and figuring out which way to tweak things for your particular taste. Keep asking questions and trying different techniques and you'll be making great beer in no time!

Ahhh this is where I disagree slightly. As a scientist, I will attest to the need to having a baseline intuition helps when making any decision. You need to understand the mechanisms at play to understand how to make valid adjustments. You could tell me "add a bunch of hops." An experienced brewer might understand roughly what you mean because in the context of brewing he understands what "a bunch" means, whereas a newbie might say, "what is a bunch? a pound? three pounds?" Intuition comes from a fundamental understanding of basic driving forces or systems, it's not mystical witchcraft haha. Areas of science where we don't have any physical intuition are very difficult, I worked in a dark matter lab for 6 years haha and there is a reason that research doesn't move quickly.

So with 16 oz in a 5 gallon you’re are technically hopping at a rate of 6.2 lbs per barrel. Not unheard of but you Need to increase your anti o2 practices and tighten them up. I ferment in a large mouth carboy and have converted the cap into a keg essentially so that I can dryhop and cold crash under pressure and closed transfer rack into my co2 purged serving keg View attachment 636016

This keeps my NEIPA bright even after 2 months in a keg and could probably go longer but I finish be for that. This beer has been in a keg roughly 3 weeks and has had zero negative change. View attachment 636017

Thank you that's helpful! I do not have the means to do sealed transfers yet. I am still pretty basic in the fermentation category of equipment. I have ideas on things I would like to do, but those are down the line.

It's not so much the amount, though anything more than 2 oz/gal is beyond the point of perceptible difference (saturation point) - it's the process.
If I had to guess, you probably let the beer ferment out, then added the dry hops to the primary, let it sit, then racked it into a keg?

Did you do anything to prevent oxidation during that time?
Did you dry hop in a secondary? That would have made the oxidation worse.
Did you fail to purge the keg before racking into it? That would have made it worse.

Limiting oxidation damage in a heavily dry-hopped beer is a real challenge. It can be done, but you need to take numerous steps to do absolutely everything you can to prevent oxygen exposure to the beer.

To answer your questions, you are more or less correct with my process. I use a standard brewing bucket, so in order to do anything, I do have to remove the lid to take readings or add dry hopping. I do try to be as careful as possible to not agitate, and my past brews when dry hopping has turned out fine. But this brew has a significantly higher dry hop addition than anything I have ever done before. Like I have stated before, I am a scientist haha so I am more often than not overly careful to the extent of being needlessly pedantic haha. So I think we are getting to my main issue is that I didn't understand the concept of "hopping rates."

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Without a significant change in process, you would do well to add your hops when you are just short of final gravity. Your yeast will still be active and will help scavenge SOME of the O2 you are adding with the hops.
Next, you should purge your keg with CO2 before racking into it. With your current equipment, it won't be completely without O2 in it, but you can at least make it an oxygen-deficient environment.
And while you're at it, shoot some CO2 through your racking cane and hose just before you rack (to "purge" the line).

These are small steps that won't eliminate oxidation, but everything will help and these are the simple low-hanging fruit.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Just be aware that with hopping during active fermentation you may lose some of the volatile hops aromatics, but if you do it at the tail end of the fermentation, it will be minimal loss, and the reduction in oxidation will make it worth it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

There's plenty of math, physics, chemistry, microbiology, and biochemistry involved in brewing. Most people don't find these topics intuitive, but they learn through reading and/or experience.

Anyone recommending "a bunch of hops" is not a good resource for recipe advice.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I feel that brewing is equal parts art and science.
Okay, maybe 60/40 science/art.

 

[JordanD]

There's plenty of math, physics, chemistry, microbiology, and biochemistry involved in brewing. Most people don't find these topics intuitive, but they learn through reading and/or experience.

Anyone recommending "a bunch of hops" is not a good resource for recipe advice.

Well yes obviously haha it was an off the cuff example, and hopefully you know what I am getting at.

But when you become familiar enough with a topic you can make and take better liberties with a large amount of confidence that you will have made the right choices based on your experience/intuition. I use the term intuition as more of an experience based idea then of an instinct based mystical art haha.

 

[JordanD]

Hey everyone. Thought I would report back on the status. I let the beer relax for a few more weeks and sure enough, all that weird color fell out, and the very abrasive flavors also fell out. The beer is actually pretty good. It was intended to be a very light "crushable" beer and I would say it was achieved. The aroma is very fantastic, but the overall flavor of the body is a bit more muted then I was expecting. I would enjoy trying to brew this beer again and changing up a few things to see if I can up the flavor but minimize the weirdness of this process.