Odd GFCI Connections?

[Ohio-Ed]

Would this work for a GFI Cord? It's only got 3 wires...

Without a neutral, you would not be able to supply 120v in your box, only 240v.

Ed

 

[ScubaSteve]

Wyzazz.....good lookin' out! I saw that one but yeah....only 3 wires. It's amazing how much I've learned about this stuff over the last few days.....I'm an idiot for going out and buying breakers without thinking about how they connect. I didn't even think that they might be proprietary and/or designed to go in a breaker panel.

SO, I'll be returning the breakers meant for inside the box to Lowe's, and I'm selling the GFCI breaker on Ebay for the cheapest shipped price (QO230GFI)

I'll be putting a 50A 2p Cutler Hammer in my panel, and running 6 awg range cord from there to a 50A GFCI Spa Panel. Then I'll go from there to a 50A surface mount range outlet. The control box will now use a 50a cord. That way, I can use the outlet for a welder or my brewery.

As far as inside the control box, I plan on getting some DIN mountable breakers from factorymation.com, to include a 30A breaker right where the 50A cord enters, so I don't melt anything!

 

[wyzazz]

Bummer, but I thought I'd give it a shot! Cheers!

 

[SweetSounds]

Why not just get a 2 slot Cutler-Hammer panel (HD or Lowes should have them) and install your GFCI breaker. Then take some SOOW cable in and out of the panel - Line side goes to the appropriate plug to jack into your house, and the other has the appropriate receptacle to power your rig. Think of it as a really big inline GFCI made of metal.

You could even hard wire it to your panel - Just make the GFCI box as close to the line side as possible. You want to be protected as far upstream as you can be.

 

[bgrubb7]

On another note, anyone seen or use one of THESE DONUT STYLE GFCI'S? Looks like you need a contactor as well.....

I like the idea of using one of these... Looks similar to what Brewmation uses in their control boxes. I like the idea of having the GFCI in the control box (but with easy access to the reset button), rather than using a GFCI breaker in the breaker box. That would allow me to brew in the garage in the summer, but bring it inside for the winter without having to install 2 separate GFCI breakers. I already have a 30A/240 outlet in the garage for my welder, and have a 30A dryer outlet in the basement.

What type of contactor do I need to be able to make that breaker work with 240v/30A? Been googling, but I guess I really don't understand what I'm looking for.

 

[bgrubb7]

On another note, anyone seen or use one of THESE DONUT STYLE GFCI'S? Looks like you need a contactor as well.....

I found these contactors on the Auber site... anyone know if ones of those would work with the GFCI from the link listed above?

 

[thelorax121]

Without a neutral, you would not be able to supply 120v in your box, only 240v.

Ed

Would the cable work on one of the old NEMA 10 connectors (2 Hots and a Ground)? I have two of these outlets for the stove and dryer right by where I brew and I am trying to figure out the best way to bump my system up to 220V with GFCI

 

[sjvicker]

If you've got the old NEMA 10-30 connectors then depending on who manufactured your main panel you could remove your two current 30amp breakers and install two 30amp gfci's in their place to protect your 220V lines.

If you've got a 110V GFCI in the area for your kitchen you can connect that to your control panel VIA an extension cord to get protected 110V for the controls and pumps.

There isn't anything that says you have to bring power into your controller VIA one cord such as Tiber Brew did https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/electric-brewery-plans-need-help-183775/ it just makes for a cleaner looking install.

 

[wyzazz]

Would the cable work on one of the old NEMA 10 connectors (2 Hots and a Ground)? I have two of these outlets for the stove and dryer right by where I brew and I am trying to figure out the best way to bump my system up to 220V with GFCI

Yep you'd just have to change out the cord end to match.

 

[thelorax121]

What are the benefits of using a gfci breaker over the inline cord method? And if I use the inline cord as my power supply, then simply use one of the hots to power all the 110 devices, they would be covered by the gfci as well right?


And thanks for the confirmation wyzazz!

 

[Ohio-Ed]

What are the benefits of using a gfci breaker over the inline cord method? And if I use the inline cord as my power supply, then simply use one of the hots to power all the 110 devices, they would be covered by the gfci as well right?


And thanks for the confirmation wyzazz!

The cord in the post above is only 3 wires... 2 hots and a ground... no neutral.

In order to get 110 from 220, you need a neutral. So, you cannot use that cord to get 110v.

Ed

 

[thelorax121]

The cord in the post above is only 3 wires... 2 hots and a ground... no neutral.

In order to get 110 from 220, you need a neutral. So, you cannot use that cord to get 110v.

Ed

Ah, thanks Ed, that was the part I was missing. Looks like I may have to suffice with a 1500-2000W element just for temp maintenance till I move to a house with more up-to-date wiring...

 

[wyzazz]

What Ed said. If you were ONLY running 220 in that box you would be OK, or if you were plugging a seperate 120 power source in to the box you would also be OK, but you would want to wire a gfci to that as well.

The benefit of a GFCI Breaker is that it's usually farther upstream than an inline cord and will protect everything downstream from it. The disadvantage is that it's not as portable as the inline cord.

I've been searching for a DIN mountable mini GFCI Breaker but haven't had any luck so far...

 

[petey_c]

Just some notes...
There are many different manufacturers of circuit breakers and many of the breakers are inter-changeable. Square-D makes QO, QOB, QOU, etc., and Home-line breakers, The home-line style is the most common (in this area) for residential use. These types of breakers will fit in (most) panels manufactured by Murray, Cutler Hammer, GE, Siemens, etc.
In the old days, they used to use SE cable (or 10/2, 6/2, etc., romex) to wire stoves, dryers, etc. A black, a white and a ground. For a 220V device (water heater, dryer, etc.) the loads are the same on each leg and cancel each other out on the neutral. Now for new installations you need to wire for a 4 wire connection, but that's getting off the point.
There have been some good suggestions on how to get around the $100.00+ Eaton Cutler-Hammer GCFI problem. 50A regular breaker to a 50A outlet. 60A sub-panel (about $15 at HD) wired with a 50A (cheaper) GFCI breaker. Basically a 50A extension cord with a GFCI protected sub-panel in between.
If you’re going to have 2 separate circuits share the same neutral, they should be connected to a 220V breaker. (required in some areas) This way you don’t have current on the shared neutral with only one of the circuits off. It also eliminates the risk of putting both circuits on the same leg and adding the current on the neutral (possibly overloading).

 

[hennesse]

I've also been looking for a stand-alone GFCI - not built in to a receptacle or circuit breaker. Haven't found one yet.

The Multi 9s are designed to protect equipment - they trip when the difference in going and coming current is 30, 100 or 300 ma - depending on the model. The standard for protecting people is 5 ma.

Look for one that is "Class A" and meets UL 943.

Here's a link to a UL document
http://www.ul.com/global/documents/...wsletters/electricalconnections/january09.pdf

What about THIS one? Looks like it's a DIN rail mountable breaker without the funky bussbar connectors. Should be able to be installed inline....but I can't tell the rating. The info makes it look like it's multi-use?

 

[wyzazz]

I've also been looking for a stand-alone GFCI - not built in to a receptacle or circuit breaker. Haven't found one yet.

The Multi 9s are designed to protect equipment - they trip when the difference in going and coming current is 30, 100 or 300 ma - depending on the model. The standard for protecting people is 5 ma.

Look for one that is "Class A" and meets UL 943.

Here's a link to a UL document
http://www.ul.com/global/documents/...wsletters/electricalconnections/january09.pdf

What Amp/Volt combo's are you looking for? There are power cords all over Ebay with GFCI's built in.

 

[hennesse]

120/240 30amp (for 3 wire + ground)

Hubbell makes some cords or hard-wired GFCIs, but they're like $300.

What Amp/Volt combo's are you looking for? There are power cords all over Ebay with GFCI's built in.

 

[wyzazz]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350425166456&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Give that a shot for $77.00. It's what I'll be picking up for my build.

 

[hennesse]

All GFCI's are not equal.

Ask the seller what it says on the GFCI unit on this cord. The answer will probably be:
240V, 30A, 7200W Per Phase
50/60 HZ I (small triangle) N = 10 mA

The UL 943 standard for protection of people requires a trip between 4mA and 6mA. Regular GFCI circuit breakers and receptacles are UL 943 "Class A" which trip at 5mA.

There are some GFCIs which are used for protection of equipment. These have various sensitivities, some as high as 300mA.

What's the difference between 5mA, 10mA, 300mA ?
Check out: http://www.elec-toolbox.com/Safety/safety.htm#shock

I'm looking for something that will protect me - not my equipment.

Dave

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350425166456&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Give that a shot for $77.00. It's what I'll be picking up for my build.