O2 instead of CO2 - is it possible?

[curlyfat]

That doesn't compute. At 88F, the vapor pressure of CO2 is 1070 PSI. If your tank is getting to 90F, the pressure will be 1100+ PSI.

Well, now I'm questioning the accuracy of my gauge. I've only seen it over 600psi once, and actually it normally shows in the red "order gas" region below 400psi. Perhaps I don't understand gaseous physics and need a new gauge..it's pretty new, though. Sorry to hyjack the thread...

Edit: I just hooked my regulator up to a full tank and it shows almost 1000psi (about 75f), and the almost empty tank shows about 400psi. So I'm guessing the amount remaining in the tank has some effect on the pressure, not just the temperature of the CO2. I'm looking for understanding, not attempting to "argue"

 

[japhroaig]

If I were you, I would just take the tank back to where you filled it. If they truly put O2 into you tank, that would be like filling your gas car with diesel--i.e. a *very* bad thing. Don't get a flame near it, don't do any experiments, just have the fillers look at it. If they know anything at all, they know about liability and won't screw around.

Frankly I just can't wrap my head around them mis-filling your tank. It's like using salt instead of sugar in a cake. I just doesn't compute.

 

[bad67z]

I was being a smart a$$, but actually the "smoldering splint experiment" is from my freshman year in high school. It won't explode, but the O2 will cause the smoldering stick to flame up. The correct way is to ignite the stick and place it away from the O2. Put some O2 in a beaker or coffee can. Blow out the stick and then put it inside the beaker. If it's O2, it will flame up. However, if you don't know what kind of gas this is, I wouldn't put it next to an open flame. What if you put that smoldering stick in a coffee can full of calibration gas like 1,3 butadiene? I would call the welding supply place and see if they can help you out. Let us know what you end up doing. - Dwain

I agree with Dwain. And I also worked for a gas distributor and if you/they have a problem with the Co2 they will want to know. And two my hillbilly litmus test...Co2 will burn your nose, just like a stifled soda burp. But I would not recommend trying #2.

Cheers...

 

[Scimmia]

Edit: I just hooked my regulator up to a full tank and it shows almost 1000psi (about 75f), and the almost empty tank shows about 400psi. So I'm guessing the amount remaining in the tank has some effect on the pressure, not just the temperature of the CO2. I'm looking for understanding, not attempting to "argue"

The amount remaining only matters after all of the liquid CO2 is gone. As long as there's liquid in the tank, the pressure will stay at the equilibrium vapor pressure for whatever temperature it's at. Once the liquid is gone, you're down to just compressed gas which will drop in pressure as you use it.

 

[bad67z]

If I were you, I would just take the tank back to where you filled it. If they truly put O2 into you tank, that would be like filling your gas car with diesel--i.e. a *very* bad thing. Don't get a flame near it, don't do any experiments, just have the fillers look at it. If they know anything at all, they know about liability and won't screw around.

Frankly I just can't wrap my head around them mis-filing your tank. It's like using salt instead of sugar in a cake. I just doesn't compute.

^^^ This guy is correct, it is almost impossible, I have been in the welding/gas business for 20 yrs. All the fittings are unique to specific gases or family of gases and Co2 is no exception.

When a 5,10and 20lb. Co2 cylinder is filled, it is first opened and completely drained, then the fill line is connected to the cylinder a bit of gas/liquid is put in the cylinder (This cools the cylinder and helps it keep more of the Co2 in liquid state during filling).

Then the valve on the cylinder is closed and it is disconnected from the fill line. This bit of gas is now vented the valve is closed. It is now reconnected to the fill line, put on a scale, valve opened and filled to it's intended final weight. Valve closed and disconnected from the fill line.

This is a basic outline, I haven't filled one in quite a few years.

Here is an example on a 20oz. paint ball tank, it is very similar if you fill of a 50lb. tank of pump it directly from a bulk tank.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRFK-mcOd3I"]video[/ame]

 

[curlyfat]

The amount remaining only matters after all of the liquid CO2 is gone. As long as there's liquid in the tank, the pressure will stay at the equilibrium vapor pressure for whatever temperature it's at. Once the liquid is gone, you're down to just compressed gas which will drop in pressure as you use it.

Learned something today. Thanks!

 

[bad67z]

The amount remaining only matters after all of the liquid CO2 is gone. As long as there's liquid in the tank, the pressure will stay at the equilibrium vapor pressure for whatever temperature it's at. Once the liquid is gone, you're down to just compressed gas which will drop in pressure as you use it.

And if you would like a rough idea of the remaining liquid Co2 in your cylinder. Look on your cylinder and there should be a stamped TW (tare weight) with a number stamped after it. That number should be the weight of your cylinder empty. Weigh your cylinder and deduct the TW. The sum is your remaining Co2

 

[ballzac]

Ok, this may be but I need to dispel a big myth here. Oxygen is not explosive, and it isn't flammable. Yes, it does enhance a flame, and will make a small fire bigger, but it won't explode or cause a fire. The person who suggested using a smoldering stick is correct, if the bottle does contain O2, the ember will either glow brighter, or may even reignite, but just having an O2 bottle under pressure near a flame won't cause any damage. Fire needs three things: a heat source, a fuel source, and oxygen. The smoldering stick is the heat and fuel, the oxygen is all around us, so it will smolder for a while. Give it a shot of oxygen from a pressurized tank, and you will able to reignite the stick until the fuel source is used up. The fire won't travel back into the tank and explode, because there is no fuel in there to burn.

Now, I do have to add a disclaimer, since I'm sure someone will try tossing a pressurized oxygen tank into a fire to see what happens, and then try to sue me, but I do not take responsibility for actions like that. Compressed O2 is under a large amount of pressure, and heating a tank beyond it's rated capacity is dangerous, so if you do toss one into a fire and get killed, don't blame me.

You're right that oxygen is not flammable (I don't think anyone said it was), but suggesting putting a burning ember in front of a full tank of pure oxygen is not good. Pure oxygen is now considered a hazard by NASA after the 1967 fire that claimed three lives. I don't think there is any school or laboratory in the world that would allow students/employees to set fire to something in front of an open tank of oxygen.

Like I said earlier, even dust can be explosive in the presence of pure oxygen. In fact, grain mills and silos have been known to explode under normal atmospheric conditions. Add more oxygen to that (our atmosphere is only about 20%) and you're asking for trouble. Yes, some of us have barley dust floating around from time to time.

No harm in filling up a glass with gas and doing the experiment in a controlled manner.

 

[homebeerbrewer]

ballzac, you are correct, no one said that oxygen is flammable (at least not in this thread, the term used was "volatile"), and it definitely isn't a good idea to set a fire near an open tank of O2. However, a closed tank of O2 is no more dangerous than an empty tank, as long as the heat of the fire doesn't come in contact with the tank. (I should also note that the pressure in a full tank has more explosive power under the right conditions than the gas itself, the term "volatile" is accurate here.) I'm not advocating setting anything on fire and opening a tank directly onto the flame (see my disclaimer), but as Reelale asked, if he put a lighter to a QD with the plunger depressed, the flame from the lighter would get bigger. Obviously, the pressure could blow the flame out before the O2 had an effect on the flame.

The point I'm trying to make is that oxygen is not a big bad monster that people should be afraid of. If you want to be afraid of something, be afraid of the pressure in the tank and handle all tanks with care.

Now, back to the regularly scheduled program...

If the beer is indeed oxidized, I'd be willing to bet that the oxygen came from another source. As has been discussed already, it is nearly impossible for a CO2 tank to be filled with O2. It seems strange to me that the off flavor developed later, so I have no idea where the O2 could have gotten in.

 

[Shrewd_Alchemist]

That smoldering splint experiment will not hurt anything, as long as you do it in a coffee can or something similar. Worst case senario - you have a flammable gas. It won't explode when the splint goes in, it will ignite and make a short, quick fireball. Explosions only happen when you ignite a flammable gas in a sealed container. You could singe your arm hairs or maybe get a very small burn. Use a glove if you are worried about that.

But that scenario is also HIGHLY unlikely. You have already carbed your beer and if you carbed it with a flammable gas like 1,3-butadiene, it would taste horrendous and nothing like cardboard. You'd probably also be pretty sick since you have been drinking on that keg for a bit now!

 

[Sigafoos]

Silly question:

Did you bleed out the o2 in the keg before shaking it? I didn't for my first few kegs: I'd fill them with beer, put on the lid, attach my co2 and shake. I didn't have any problems but I still realized I should probably leave the relief valve open for a bit so the co2 can force out the air in there.

Sort of a longshot, but it could save you a trip to the store. Another way would be to get a carbonator cap (or make one) and carb up a 20oz Pepsi bottle of your next batch. If it goes bad, you're only out 20oz. Yeah you have to pay for the cap, but those things are pretty handy.

 

[Reelale]

Just talked to the service manager at the fire extinguisher place. They don't do any O2, just Nitrogen and CO2. And it is physically impossible for them to interchange. He did say that if the tech did not bleed the container properly when he filled it, there may have been more vapor than usual. He said that they want liquid during the fill. He said to bring it in, they would purge and fill correctly...no charge I'm thinking that my beer was "vaporized".

 

[Sigafoos]

Set phasers to 12psi.

 

[jangelj]

now you guys have me concerned. I have a 20# co2 tank sitting next to my kegerator in my garage in Florida. I don't have room to put it in my kegerator (unless I lose space for 1 of my kegs).

It is routinely over 90F in the summer here. Sometimes 100F, even in the garage. Just how dangerous is this?

 

[japhroaig]

Reelale, it's good to know that it isn't even possible, and I am sorry for your loss (the beer )

 

[Dwain]

now you guys have me concerned. I have a 20# co2 tank sitting next to my kegerator in my garage in Florida.....it is routinely over 90F in the summer here. Sometimes 100F, even in the garage. Just how dangerous is this?

I keep mine in the shop in TX, 92+ entire summer. Never had a problem. Also, all of the welding supply places store them outside under a rood and they don't have any problems so I wouldn't think so. - Dwain

 

[lurker18]

If I were you, I would just take the tank back to where you filled it. If they truly put O2 into you tank, that would be like filling your gas car with diesel--i.e. a *very* bad thing. Don't get a flame near it, don't do any experiments, just have the fillers look at it. If they know anything at all, they know about liability and won't screw around.

Frankly I just can't wrap my head around them mis-filling your tank. It's like using salt instead of sugar in a cake. I just doesn't compute.

Actually filling a gas car with diesel is not bad, but the other way around is not good at all.

 

[Sacdan]

release some into a small bag. Light a match, blow it out and then put it in the bag. If it re-ignites, it's O2.

 

[Diver165]

You could always burn a small stick. Blow it out where there are just coals showing. Put it by the bottle outlet and crack open the gas. If it flames up, you've got
O2, if it put it out, it's CO2. Incidentally, if it flames up green, it's freon and will probably kill you. Maybe have someone you don't like do the test? - Dwain

LOL Yeah that will do it! It will probably kill you though.

If it is O2 it could cause a reallyt large flare so quickly you can't get away from it. I take care of a lot of people who stupidly lit up a cigarrette while on home O2. I've seen the results of a simple cigarette lighter flame that made contact with a person on home oxygen (which would be a lot less volume and pressure than quickly cracking the valve on a tank) and it is not good. I've seen it kill people.

Don't do this please...

If you really think you have O2 instead of CO2, take the tank back. But don't go cracking the tank around an open flame.

 

[giligson]

A licensed gas distributor in any jurisdiction would not be able (fittings) to fill a CO2 tank with O2.
If you want to know if the gas coming out of a hose is CO2 or O2 just flow a little on your tongue (CO2 has a sharp "soda pop" metallic flavor).
At high temp your CO2 tank will vent through the overpressure safety valve or "burst disc" - in the worst case scenario a person or animal in an enclosed space with a venting tank can die of CO2 narcosis (unless they hear the tank vent and open a door or window), however once the tank begins to vent it will also cool and so will only vent a limited amount of gas - the tank will not explode unless someone has messed up the safety valve on the tank.
Supercritical CO2 is the phase of CO2 that is inside the tank at low ambient temperature. It has no bearing on the CO2 that is in your corny keg since the pressure is not high enough to make it supercritical (at that stage its a gas).

The cause of your funky tasting beer has nothing to do with whats in your CO2 tank - its something else.

Cheers.

 

[mattd2]

All the fittings are unique to specific gases or family of gases and Co2 is no exception.

Yeah you/they/anyone shouldn't be able to fill a CO2 tank with O2 because the fittings just won't go together, but looking at the threads for the CGA320 (CO2) and CGA540 (O2) it looks like it could be possible to thread a CO2 regulator on a O2 tank. This would only happen if you swapped the bottle and the guy only heard the O2 part of CO2 and didn't look at what you gave him and you didn't check the receipt. A few points at which to catch the mistak makes it unlikely.
2 questions though, do you guys use CGA fittings for the tanks? and arn't the tanks painted a different colour depending on the contents?

 

[homebeerbrewer]

LOL Yeah that will do it! It will probably kill you though.

If it is O2 it could cause a reallyt large flare so quickly you can't get away from it. I take care of a lot of people who stupidly lit up a cigarrette while on home O2. I've seen the results of a simple cigarette lighter flame that made contact with a person on home oxygen (which would be a lot less volume and pressure than quickly cracking the valve on a tank) and it is not good. I've seen it kill people.

Don't do this please...

If you really think you have O2 instead of CO2, take the tank back. But don't go cracking the tank around an open flame.

Have you read any of my posts? Oxygen is NOT flammable. It will not "cause a reallyt large flare so quickly you can't get away from it" (copied and pasted). It will cause a flame to get larger, or a burning ember to reignite, but only as long as there is a fuel source. Once the fuel source is used up, the fire will die, even in a 100% oxygen atmosphere (which, as someone brought up, NASA found out the hard way).

I'm a retired firefighter, and I too have been to people's houses that are on home O2 and smoke. The O2 level in the home is higher than normal because they are releasing O2 all day, every day. They smoke, drop a burning ember on their clothes, and guess what, they burn up. Why then, if O2 isn't flammable, will they ignite so easily, you ask? Their clothes are saturated with O2, the heat from the burning ember ignites their clothes, and the higher level of O2 promotes the fire. As I've said, fire needs three things: a heat source, a fuel source, and oxygen. The cigarette is the heat source, the clothes (and the body inside them) are the fuel, and the oxygen level is higher because if the release of O2 from whatever tank they use. All three are the cause of your crispy critters that you take care of. It's not just the oxygen.

 

[bad67z]

Yeah you/they/anyone shouldn't be able to fill a CO2 tank with O2 because the fittings just won't go together, but looking at the threads for the CGA320 (CO2) and CGA540 (O2) it looks like it could be possible to thread a CO2 regulator on a O2 tank. This would only happen if you swapped the bottle and the guy only heard the O2 part of CO2 and didn't look at what you gave him and you didn't check the receipt. A few points at which to catch the mistak makes it unlikely.
2 questions though, do you guys use CGA fittings for the tanks? and arn't the tanks painted a different color depending on the contents?

Here is the states there is no standard color code for compressed gases, even though compressed breathing air seems to always to be in yellow and medical 02 is genneraly in green.

The reason is that the industrial gas and welding predominantly filled with males & 8% of males have one type of color blindness. While females have only about 0.5% assurance of color blindness.

Cheers..

 

[Hypnolobster]

Anybody in here terrified of pure oxygen has never used a cutting torch. It's not that scary.
Hell, we burn up old office records in the shop with oxygen. Paper burns like **** in large amounts if it's stacked, but not if you blanket it with oxygen.

The flame won't carry through oxygen. It'll carry through the air as far as there is fuel (and if you have a combustible floating around, you have bigger problems). If you've got a little stick burning and it's suddenly oxidized, it will burn fast and hot until it burns up completely or you shut the oxygen off. Nothing terrifying.