nottingham w.t.f.

[Psylocide]

I can't hear you over here in this corner...

Wait 72 hours before worrying.

 

[slym2none]

Too noisy in here...

 

[user 163849]

My experience, though quite limited, might add a bit light or maybe even more mystery to the situation. But if I did something to cause my recent batch of Irish red with Nottingham yeast to take 56+ hours to start showing signs of fermentation I would really like to find out what it was. I have only brewed a little over a dozen batches, all extract, and all but these two were pitched with yeast starters made with liquid yeast.

I recently ordered two extract kits with specialty grains from Northern Brewer. Both kits contain 6 pounds of the same "Gold Malt Syrup". Of course the specialty grains and hops were different as one was a Dry Irish Stout and the other an Irish Red. The stout came with S-04 and the Red came with Nottingham.

I brewed the stout first and followed up 5 days later with the Red. I used the same equipment and procedure for both. They were full boils with filtered tap water treated with campden (1/4 tablet to 5 gallons approx). They were both cooled to approx 70 degrees using an immersion chiller first with tap water followed by recirculated ice water. I also had a whirlpool going during the cooling via March pump and homemade whirlpool tube. I removed the immersion chiller and continued the whirlpool for 5 minutes or so then let it settle for a few minutes after which I transferred to the fermenting bucket by removing the recirculation tube from the kettle and placing it in the fermentation bucket, as the hoses were already full of wort the siphon started automatically so no need for the pump there. Once transferred I used an oxygen stone on a disposable oxygen cylinder to oxygenate the wort (about 30-40 seconds with bubbles not breaking the surface) before pitching the yeast. The yeast for both batches was rehydrated using the directions on the Nottingham packet as the S-04 directions simply stated to sprinkle the dry yeast on top of the wort. The filtered tap water for rehydration of the yeast was boiled then cooled to 85 degrees F before soaking the yeast for 15 minutes. It was then stirred gently and pitched into the wort.

I am not sure when the Stout started showing signs of fermentation but the next morning the first thing I noticed was no sounds coming from the audio of the camera I have inside the fermentation fridge. Once I looked I realized why. The overnight fermentation had been violent enough to blow the lid off the bucket, even with a 1/2 inch id blow off tube installed. I cleaned all that mess up and after 5 days fermentation had slowed considerably so I decided to go ahead with starting the Red.

Everything about brewing the Irish Red was done as closely as humanly possible to the same as was done with the Stout. There were no major events and everything went smoothly.

So there we have it. Why would my Nottingham yeast take at least 50 hours or more longer to start fermenting than the S-04.

And I do agree that 72 hours (or even 56) seems unreasonable, or at least undesirable in my case.

 

[slym2none]

Anything over 12 hours is undesirable, but it happens...

 

[user 163849]

Anything over 12 hours is undesirable, but it happens...

It certainly did!!

 

[user 163849]

Has anyone else noticed that both motobrewer and I purchased the Nottingham yeast that is in question from the same vendor within a couple of weeks of each other?

Maybe Northern Brewer was supplied with a bad batch?

 

[lumpher]

i stopped using notty years ago because it's so unpredictable. when i first started brewing, it was great stuff every time. then they had that run of dead/lagging yeast where they had to pull it off the shelves, and it was out for a while. when it came back, many lhbs's, including 2 here, stopped carrying it, even. i've switched to us-05 and s-04 as my go-to yeasts, and have never had a problem with them

 

[Gavin C]

Something is definitely "rotten in the state of Denmark".

This is not typically what I see with rehydrated Nottingham.

Activity within 24 hours is the norm. Invariably <12 hours.

Activity = airlock activity

Slym, come out of your corner. We'll all speak in hushed tones.

 

[RmikeVT]

Hey man, lots of comments, but have you checked your thermometer to make sure it is accurate? I have had dial thermometers be off by 40* before.

 

[slym2none]

Something is definitely "rotten in the state of Denmark".

This is not typically what I see with rehydrated Nottingham.

Activity within 24 hours is the norm. Invariably <12 hours.

Activity = airlock activity

Slym, come out of your corner. We'll all speak in hushed tones.

I've said all I have to say. When I got called "comical" for praising patience, my head left this thread.

Now my posts will as well.

*poof*

 

[motobrewer]

OK. I'll go **** off in a corner now...

It wasn't a negative comment. You told me to be patient and your sig has a funny comment about patient people.

 

[slym2none]

Yeah, but your comment was "Your post & your sig line both are comical."

Which sounds kind of *******, IMHO.

Anyway... for real, I'm out. Again, for better or worse, I've said all I came to say.

 

[motobrewer]

Yeah, but your comment was "Your post & your sig line both are comical."

Which sounds kind of *******, IMHO.

Anyway... for real, I'm out. Again, for better or worse, I've said all I came to say.

Ok.

You probably shouldn't have funny things in your sig if you're gonna get all dramatic when someone makes a comment. I didn't mean any harm by it.

For the record, I wish people would stop parroting the advice that 48 hour+ lag times are ok. Just because some dude had a 72 hour lag time once and the beer tasted "pretty good" doesn't mean it's good brewing advice or practice.

>24 hours means something is not right; oxygen, yeast mishandling, temperature, wort composition, etc. While effects on the finished beer might be minimal there's a problem in either the process or yeast.

 

[lumpher]

Ok.

For the record, I wish people would stop parroting the advice that 48 hour+ lag times are ok. Just because some dude had a 72 hour lag time once and the beer tasted "pretty good" doesn't mean it's good brewing advice or practice.

>24 hours means something is not right; oxygen, yeast mishandling, temperature, wort composition, etc. While effects on the finished beer might be minimal there's a problem in either the process or yeast.

Tell it like it is. The longer it sits without taking off, the greater the chance the wild yeasts that are already in it have a chance to take over. >24 hours bad. <12 hours good

 

[user 163849]

I never got the notion that anyone was saying 72 hours was good, only that it was possible that it could take that long. Doesn't matter much for someone who lives at least 60 miles from the nearest re-supply source. I do plan to try to keep an extra supply of S-04 around after my next mail order though just in case. I still cannot see me giving Nottingham another chance at this point, but I suppose it could happen.

 

[user 163849]

Hey man, lots of comments, but have you checked your thermometer to make sure it is accurate? I have had dial thermometers be off by 40* before.

This was probably meant for the OP but, I check mine regularly.
These four seem to be pretty closely matched and I know the Fluke meter to be accurate.

 

[motobrewer]

I use a thermopen. I haven't cal'd it in awhile but I trust its close.

 

[metric]

I recently had under-attenuation issues with Nottingham yeast. I had 3 packs, 2 from the same lot, 1 from a different lot. I made a 10gal (2 x 5gal) batch of 1.030 OG Gratzer and pitched a different lot of rehydrated yeast into each 5gal. One of the 5gal batches took off pretty quick, the other one showed no activity after 48-72hrs, I ended up transferring krausen from the active batch to the other beer in order to get it going.

More recently I used the other packet of yeast in a 1.040 OG pale ale. The beer ended up sweet and under-attenuated. It appears to me that the issues I had were lot specific. Of course I didn't write down the lot# and date of the packets that gave me problems......:smack:

 

[brewkinger]

My thoughts on this.
1) Notty is a beast and I have used it a lot. Never had a problem with it.
But I have noticed that one a few occasions that if the ferment temp is down low 57-ish that it can be really timid in appearance. Not often, but it can happen.
2) Check the Danstar/Lallemand website cuz I seem to remember that there was a recall of sorts because of some bad lot numbers.
3) this one should be #1, but I just thought of it. 72 hours is very rare for Notty, so if #2 is wrong then I have to agree that something is wrong.
Bad rehydration, way off temps, or perhaps something that I am forgetting.

Nottingham is a monster yeast and very rarely does it crap the bed like this

 

[aprichman]

Moto - did you use spring water or distilled water to hydrate the yeast? I've heard of distilled/RO water causing tonicity issues when hydrating dried yeast.

 

[motobrewer]

Moto - did you use spring water or distilled water to hydrate the yeast? I've heard of distilled/RO water causing tonicity issues when hydrating dried yeast.

I use tap. Med-low hardness. Should have enough to rehydrate properly.

 

[RmikeVT]

I use a thermopen. I haven't cal'd it in awhile but I trust its close.

Didn't realize you weren't a new brewer. Sorry, should have realized that. I see threads on here all the time when newbies are trying to figure out why they on got 30% efficiency in their first mash and it seems pretty typical they are using the dial thermometer that came with their kit, which as we all know, work a few times and then lose calibration.

 

[ncbrewer]

i let the rehydrate cool down at room temp. i don't know what the temp is exactly (I should probably record for future reference) but it wasn't 90F.

According to an email from Danstar:
"Our technical manager suggests that you don't go longer than 30 minutes after the start of rehydration before pitching the yeast into wort as the yeast needs nutrients. If there is a delay you could actually add more wort to the rehydration water to give the yeast something to eat while you are waiting to pitch it, so long as it isn't too hot."

That could be contributing to your problem. Also, the unknown yeast temp at pitching.

 

[passedpawn]

i stopped using notty years ago because it's so unpredictable. when i first started brewing, it was great stuff every time. then they had that run of dead/lagging yeast where they had to pull it off the shelves, and it was out for a while. when it came back, many lhbs's, including 2 here, stopped carrying it, even. i've switched to us-05 and s-04 as my go-to yeasts, and have never had a problem with them

I remember the Big Notty Scare of 2010. They were punching small holes in the packets when stamping their date codes on the sachet, and consequently the yeast would do all sorts of bad stuff when used. I got bit too. I'll never use the stuff again, though there is probably not an issue now.

 

[passedpawn]

Regarding Moto's sitch: If an ale yeast hasn't taken off by day 2/3, I'm pitching more yeast. I wouldn't hesitate. For example, I always brew on Sunday mornings, and I expect to see krausen on Monday. If it's still not there by Tuesday evening, I'd add new yeast. I give lagers an extra day, but same thing. I've probably had ales take 3 days to get going, though, and end up fine. So I wouldn't say the sky is falling, but yeast is relatively cheap.

I hope you guys keep a few extra yeast packets in your fridge/cabinet. There's no downside to adding more, the cost is minimal.

 

[Brew_G]

Has anyone else noticed that both motobrewer and I purchased the Nottingham yeast that is in question from the same vendor within a couple of weeks of each other?

Maybe Northern Brewer was supplied with a bad batch?

I brewed a blonde a few months ago into which I pitched rehydrated Notty that I bought from my LHBS. It took upwards of 36 hours to see activity in the airlock. I have a 30L Speidel, so I can't see inside; thus I go on airlock activity as the indicator of fermentation. The seal on the Speidel is really good, so that's a pretty reliable way of determining whether something is happening or not.

 

[motobrewer]

to close this out -

notty eventually started. ~60 hours from pitching. I'm going to stay away from notty for awhile unless I realize some huge flaw in my yeast handling process.

 

[angrybits]

Think of how many successful batches are under notty's belt.

In the end it's either you, northern, ups/fedex or danstar. Danstar seems the least likely in that set of choices.

 

[user 163849]

Think of how many successful batches are under notty's belt.

In the end it's either you, northern, ups/fedex or danstar. Danstar seems the least likely in that set of choices.

Okay, let's assume it was me. So for the sake of this discussion, let's suppose that for whatever outrageous reason a person wanted to pitch his yeast today, but did not want it to start fermenting for 56-60 hours. Assume a wort temp of 70 degrees F at pitching then cooling to 64 degrees and holding it there. How would one accomplish the 60 hour delay?

I am not trying to be argumentative at all here just looking for answers as I am admittedly new to brewing and would like to find out what I could have done wrong to cause the delay. I posted my procedures back at post number 33 in this thread.

 

[angrybits]

Okay, let's assume it was me.

I wasn't necessarily saying it was you doing the mishandling, just venturing a guess that it's not the people who make the stuff. My apologies if it came off differently--I was sitting at a bar on my mobile. (Lone Rider's pale is a damn fine beer, while we are on the subject.)

Any one of the people who handle the yeast between the factory and you could have done something stupid, so dismissing a whole strain of workhorse yeast seems premature. That was more the point I was getting at. If you like to use it, try sourcing from elsewhere and see if you get a different result.

Cheers!