Nottingham Off Flavors?

[corkybstewart]

Great, thank you. I obviously had some misconceptions about priming. It struck me that measuring out priming sugar per bottle, was about as accurate as one could be. I suppose I was way off there. Interesting stuff. Totally not what I thought. Wow, could I be more green and new at this? Lol. :smack: Eight kits later and I am still so new, yet every kits has been successful, so I thought I was getting the hang of this. Lol. Still lots to learn, I see.

When I started brewing we paid $50 per month for 30 hours of dialup internet access at 2400 bps, there were no homebrewing forums that I knew of, and I didn't know a single homebrewer. I made every possible boneheaded mistake, but I learned from them. The people on these forums all started from scratch and are eager to help, just don't be shy about asking questions. But, at the same time keep in mind that if you ask 10 homebrewers how to do something you'll get at least 12 different answers, and none of them may suit your style or methods of brewing.

 

[billd75]

Sounds more like uneven distribution of the priming sugar.

I don't know how it could be, cause I put the exact same amount in each bottle and I always swish the bottle back and forth multiple times to dissolve it fully into the bottles, but according to some people in here, that doesn't matter. Bulk priming is apparently more accurate, which really surprised me, but you guys are much more experienced that I am. So I will take you word for it, cause you are the second person to say that. I reshook about 5 days later too when I noticed there was weak carbonation. In the hopes that stirring things up again, would kick the yeast back into action and eat up any possibly settled sugars or dormant yeast etc. Dunno if that made a difference, but it is getting better, for sure. Much better actually, as time goes by. That will teach me to judge green beer too soon. It could be how the yeast were feeding on the sugar, because I did not realize that Notty is a lower temp yeast and does not like higher temps. To the point it even stalls etc. according to some people. So it could be that it was feeding much more slowly in some bottles than others. They are all gaining carbonation better and better each couple of days and are more even now. I was being impatient I think and judging my testing too early. I just tried another one tonight and was perfect (chilled first this time, of course, unlike that last episode, lol). No foam overs and no flatness, just perfectly even carbonated beer. No off tastes and quite a pleasant brew actually. For my first Pilsner, it turned out beautifully. Refreshing and kind of fruity tasting. Better than the beer "juice" it was previously, lol. Very smooth and nicely fizzy. I am now thinking it was mainly temp and not bottle priming vs. bulk priming, as some have suggested, as I have never had issues with bottle priming vs. bulk priming before and every bottle is perfect and exactly the same across the board, no difference. I was a few degrees above nominal for this yeast, for sure (73-74 degree some days). It is quite low temp. preferring yeast (might as well be a lager, lol) which I did not know about it initially, till discovering these forums and this post in particular. We got a few hot days here recently and I am in an upstairs apt. No cool place to store it and no A/C. Now that we have had some very cool days and lots of rain, the temp is way back down and the beer is getting much better. This is a fussy yeast on temps. above 70 ish. I am just happy those higher temps did not produce any off flavours and they surely didn't. It could not taste better actually. Not even fully conditioned/aged and it doesn't taste green anymore at all. Smooth and crisp and one of my more tasty brews actually. Glad I made the comment though, cause you helpful folks have helped me understand MUCH more about the nature of brewing. I am pretty new to it.

 

[billd75]

When I started brewing we paid $50 per month for 30 hours of dialup internet access at 2400 bps, there were no homebrewing forums that I knew of, and I didn't know a single homebrewer. I made every possible boneheaded mistake, but I learned from them. The people on these forums all started from scratch and are eager to help, just don't be shy about asking questions. But, at the same time keep in mind that if you ask 10 homebrewers how to do something you'll get at least 12 different answers, and none of them may suit your style or methods of brewing.

Hahaha! How true man. I hear that. I started on the net back in those days too. The good old days of BBS systems (DOS based Bulletin Board Systems) before the world wide web even existed. The good old days of DOS internet access and Telnet and all that stuff. I became a Computer Technician because of my love of the tech. we had back then. Which pales by comparison to nowadays. It's a dream now, by comparison. So much info. and speed and a very mature internet. I actually remember moving at half that speed, 1200 baud. before 2400 came out, I bought a slightly faster "in between" speed of 1400 baud. Which was a step up from 1200. The good old days. Lol. We had fun, nevertheless. The games were pretty good back then, for their time. There was actually some homebrew information back then, I remember, cause my buddy made an Apple Pilsner he learned from being online and it was a nice beer actually, but there was nothing like we have now. Not even close. Just text documents with no pictures or videos or anything to assist. No Youtube and stuff, like now. It was about the price you mentioned too. About $50 a month. I remember it well. I thought I was getting a really good deal at $45 a month for 100 hours a month. Back when they had monthly hour limits on internet accounts. I kept track too, cause every hour you went over, it cost. I am 45 now and been a Computer Repair Tech for over 22 years. I've seen a lot change in that time. A whole lot.

 

[billd75]

I tried notty from warm (68) to cool (58) I always get the same distinct flavor from those beers and i have never like any of those batches

I gave notty plenty of chances I just do not care for that yeast and fwiw I stopped using s-04 as well not saying i go and bash those yeasts because a lot of people enjoy it I'm not a fan, i wish someone could brew a beer secretly with notty and see if i can tell because now it's in my head not to use it anymore

There is something "I dunno" about it. I can't really describe it, cause it's not a describable thing really. Just sort of a funny feeling in your cheeks or back of the throat, kind of like what the OP described or some comment earlier on. Not unpleasant really, or offensive tasting, no. Just kind of "odd". I could not even say "metallic" or anything, cause I have tasted that and this is not even like that at all either. I have tasted metallic tasting beers and coolers and hard sodas and this is not that. It is hard to describe. I do prefer the "mouth feel" of other beers with other yeasts. I tend to really like Coopers yeast and a yeast that came with a Black Rock kit I got called Whispering Wheat which was an ale. I am not really a fan of Notty now either and would not go seeking it out, that's for sure. I would actually avoid it actually now. It's "o.k." and ferments like a beast, in the fermenter at the right temps. like 68-70 or below, but it is quite touchy at higher temps and slows down a lot when not in it's ideal range and that could be leading to it's weird mouth/throat feel I get from it. It's great when chilled. Very refreshing, crisp and clean finishing actually. Once it's even slightly warm though, it's not nearly as nice and get worse with every degree it rises and yeastier. I would drink this Canadian Pilsner can kit again, most definitely. Very nice fruity overtones in it. Even my friend says it's a REALLY nice tasting beer, but I could do without the Notty yeast again. Just not my thing. It would probably be a good yeast with a much stronger and darker beer, like a heavy Stout or an even English Bitter. Then you would not even noticed whatever shortcomings it had in taste, cause they would be killed by the other flavours, for sure. Any lighter beer than those though and it would throw off the true taste of the beer, I would think. This Pilsner was sort of in the middle and I noticed the yeast as soon as it got slightly warm. It HAS to be ice cold to not notice it. First few sips are the best, but the end of the bottle, is weird and that's not the sediment doing it. I know that taste and I never drink bottoms. I scrap the last 1/2 inch, always.

 

[MaryB]

My first modem was a 110 baud phone cradle modem!

Hahaha! How true man. I hear that. I started on the net back in those days too. The good old days of BBS systems (DOS based Bulletin Board Systems) before the world wide web even existed. The good old days of DOS internet access and Telnet and all that stuff. I became a Computer Technician because of my love of the tech. we had back then. Which pales by comparison to nowadays. It's a dream now, by comparison. So much info. and speed and a very mature internet. I actually remember moving at half that speed, 1200 baud. before 2400 came out, I bought a slightly faster "in between" speed of 1400 baud. Which was a step up from 1200. The good old days. Lol. We had fun, nevertheless. The games were pretty good back then, for their time. There was actually some homebrew information back then, I remember, cause my buddy made an Apple Pilsner he learned from being online and it was a nice beer actually, but there was nothing like we have now. Not even close. Just text documents with no pictures or videos or anything to assist. No Youtube and stuff, like now. It was about the price you mentioned too. About $50 a month. I remember it well. I thought I was getting a really good deal at $45 a month for 100 hours a month. Back when they had monthly hour limits on internet accounts. I kept track too, cause every hour you went over, it cost. I am 45 now and been a Computer Repair Tech for over 22 years. I've seen a lot change in that time. A whole lot.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I believe you are quite correct! This may have been my issue too. I did not know that this was such a low temp yeast and I had mine at about a constant 72-75 degrees, so maybe that's why I got such weird action with it in the bottles and some uneven distribution of yeast when bottle. The bottle I opened last night foamed up something fierce (unlike my other flat or barely carbonated ones). This one got a good dose obviously. Lol. I don't have a basement or cool place to keep my fermenter, so perhaps my temps got a bit high and caused an issue with how this stuff behaves. It's definitely a hardy yeast, no question, because I had a very thick yeast cake on the bottom of the fermenter. The biggest one I have seen yet, at about an inch to inch and a half thick. It is nice tasting and no off flavours either, although I did notice the slightly sweet taste the OP was talking about. Unlike other beers/yeasts. This was a weird one, for sure, but I am no longer tempted to blame the yeast for my weird carbonation. I think it was the distribution of the yeast and what you mentioned, sensitivity to temp.

Variable carbonation within the bottles, ranging from OK to gushers, is a consequence of unstirred priming sugar, and not of uneven yeast distribution.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I believe you are quite correct! This may have been my issue too. I did not know that this was such a low temp yeast and I had mine at about a constant 72-75 degrees, so maybe that's why I got such weird action with it in the bottles and some uneven distribution of yeast when bottle. The bottle I opened last night foamed up something fierce (unlike my other flat or barely carbonated ones). This one got a good dose obviously. Lol. I don't have a basement or cool place to keep my fermenter, so perhaps my temps got a bit high and caused an issue with how this stuff behaves. It's definitely a hardy yeast, no question, because I had a very thick yeast cake on the bottom of the fermenter. The biggest one I have seen yet, at about an inch to inch and a half thick. It is nice tasting and no off flavours either, although I did notice the slightly sweet taste the OP was talking about. Unlike other beers/yeasts. This was a weird one, for sure, but I am no longer tempted to blame the yeast for my weird carbonation. I think it was the distribution of the yeast and what you mentioned, sensitivity to temp.

Variable carbonation within the bottles, ranging from OK to gushers, is a consequence of unstirred priming sugar, and not of uneven yeast distribution.

And if they are all trending toward gusher stage, then it is a consequence of too much priming sugar, or of bottling before fermentation is fully complete.

 

[corkybstewart]

Nottingham is my go to yeast most of the time. I use a thermowell to monitor fermentation temps and Notty does great at 60F. I even brew some faux lagers with it at 57-58F for a very clean taste.

 

[MaryB]

Kegged my house ale today, it uses Notty. I let this batch ferment at whatever temps my pantry ran, started around 69 for 2 days then ramped into the low 70's then finished high 70's. Tastes the same as when I keep it at 64 degrees...

 

[billd75]

Variable carbonation within the bottles, ranging from OK to gushers, is a consequence of unstirred priming sugar, and not of uneven yeast distribution.

And if they are all trending toward gusher stage, then it is a consequence of too much priming sugar, or of bottling before fermentation is fully complete.

Ahhh, now this makes sense, because I use normal white table sugar to prime and I use double the recommended amount of 1tsp. I got some bad information for my size of bottles. I like how very carbonated the beer comes out, but when I popped a bottle last night, it made a loud pop. A lot louder than usual and I thought "that's a recipe for a bottle bomb." On my most recent batch I used a 1 tsp and a quarter of actual corn priming sugar, cause I found it was surprisingly cheap. Just slightly more than white table sugar. I didn't like the price of a pound of corn sugar from my brew place or anywhere else, for making batches and I already spend enough on my batches by using a pound of Munton's DME Spray Malt, which I like. So I would not use corn sugar for fermenting, especially now that I have learned to invert white table sugar (and the yeast go absolutely nuts for it, cause it's more readily available than sucrose table sugar) but for priming, the actual priming sugar does not add too much expense to my batches. I think I can handle 75 cents extra, lol. I just resent spending $5 on a pound of the stuff per batch though, when I can use $1.50 table sugar, inverted. There is this notion that other sugars like table sugar add "cidery" tastes and don't ferment properly or whatever other nonsense claims people make. I've experimented and indeed the people who have debunked these false notions are correct. There is no difference. Especially when you invert the table sugar, which is super easy and makes it more like a Belgian beer, which are nice and that is basically what they do. They "candy" their sugar, which is basically cheap white sugar, inverted. Then it is fructose and glucose, just what the yeast love and they do start feeding right away. Now, when we are talking spray malt, well, that is a sugar that certainly does make a difference and is superior and I like using it. It does indeed live up to the claims. Better head retention, smoother and fuller taste and body. It's $7.50 a pound, but well worth it. So it makes one of my pounds and the other pound is cheap sugar inverted. I am not rich by any means (on disability) and I like to keep my costs down, without sacrificing flavour and good beer and I think I have found the magic formula to achieve just that. My batches now (only done can kits so far), even with the spray malt and some better priming sugar, but using cheap white table sugar inverted, cost me a mere $27.50 for two cases of beer. Not bad, when you consider that one case of beer here in Canada costs an easy $40 from the beer store. I get twice that amount for at least $13 less. That's just for cheap beer here too. The bottom line stuff, which still tastes o.k. though. Better stuff at the beer store, costs about $50 a case. Not cheap and they take us to the cleaners on the stuff. Liquor too. Especially where I live. Their markup on Liquor is mental. The LCBO here in Ontario made 220 million last year. A good portion of that in the summer too, when people consume more. Once I get a handle of brewing beer better, I will tackle making Liquor next. It's pretty interesting actually. I am now experimenting with grains in my canned beer malt kits and I did my first partial mash of beer last night. Adding boiled grains to a can kit and it went pretty well. The air lock on my fermenter is bubbling away like crazy, so the yeast are enjoying the plethora of sugar. Lol. In my small fermenter I cleaned and cut some cherries (in vinegar and water, so as to not possibly contaminate my batch, cause who knows who handled that stuff in the store?), for an experimental batch in my little 2 gallon fermenter. The other 4 gallons is in the 5 gallon fermenter with no cherries. Should be interesting to see how they compare. Thank you for your answer by the way. It made the most sense to me so far. Everyone kept saying "uneven amounts" of priming sugar, but I measured them exact. Too much priming sugar though, were the magic words. I was indeed using "too much". That loud pop of a bottle opening last night, was a good indication. I don't want any bottle bombs, thank you. I have heard the mess they make. I have yet to have one and I do not want any either. Time to back off the amount of priming sugar, or it is bound to happen.

 

[MaryB]

You don't want to boil grain additions, steep them at 154 before the boil starts then add your canned malt... if you switch to all grain a batch of beer is even cheaper! But more work!

 

[billd75]

You don't want to boil grain additions, steep them at 154 before the boil starts then add your canned malt... if you switch to all grain a batch of beer is even cheaper! But more work!

How true. That's what I was told at my local brew store and in this forum. Bring it up to about 165-170 and when you drop the grains in it should go down to about 155, which it did. However, because it releases sugars right away, it ramps back up to 180 or over in a matter of a couple of minutes. That kind of surprised me, but not. Lol. It made sense. I immediately took it off the element, to let it go back down to about 150-155. It's a little tricky, first time out, but I did o.k. I think. I got very experimental with my first partial mash of grains. I got 3 different kinds of grains (for free from the brew shop) and they even milled them for me and I added some cherries to my 2 gallon small fermenter. The rest of this 6 gallon kit (4 gallons worth) is in my 5 gallon bucket fermenter. It's fermenting well so far. I sanitized the cherries before cutting them in putting them in the wort, with some water and vinegar, to make sure no foreign nasties made their way into the sanitized environment. Wish me luck! As this is my most daring experiment yet. Wish me luck. Lol. This is why I like brewing. So many options.

 

[MaryB]

Take it to 164f or so(maybe 170, you have to experiment on this part) then take it off the heat and steep your grains. After the specified steeping time(20 minutes is common with extract kits)put it back on the burner and bring to a boil then follow your recipe. Basically a mini mash. When I use extract(mid winter when it is -20 brewing outside loses its appeal...) this is how I do it. Grains go in a mesh bag so they are easy to remove after steeping.

Most of the time steeping grains do not add much sugar and are mainly used to add flavor and body.

 

[billd75]

Take it to 164f or so(maybe 170, you have to experiment on this part) then take it off the heat and steep your grains. After the specified steeping time(20 minutes is common with extract kits)put it back on the burner and bring to a boil then follow your recipe. Basically a mini mash. When I use extract(mid winter when it is -20 brewing outside loses its appeal...) this is how I do it. Grains go in a mesh bag so they are easy to remove after steeping.

Most of the time steeping grains do not add much sugar and are mainly used to add flavor and body.

Well, thank you for the advice. So I can bring it up a bit higher huh? Good to know, cause I have always been told 150-155. I imagine it could extract more from the grain, correct? Yeah, the local brew place have me a piece of cheese cloth for the grains they gave me. They really are great with me. Those little freebies have bought my loyalty. Lol.