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New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

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Doesn't even have to be brulosphy.

I would suggest doing this as a an experiment to test 2 variables - hot side LoDO and cold side LoDO. The paper says it's all or nothing, and that may be true for the 'fresh malt flavor' portion, but i think the LoDO on the cold side would be of utmost importance to styles like IPA.

So i'd propose 4 variations on the same recipe:
1. Normal process. No LoDO on hot or cold.
2. LoDO on hot side (boiled water with SMB) but not on cold side (I.e rack and force carb)
3. Normal hot side. LoDO on cold side only (rack into rigorously purged vessel under closed system with fermentable sugar remaining)
4. LoDO on hot and cold.

Aside from taste, DO will need to be measured for each sample.

Lot more factors to control and test for than just mentioned above.

Another factor could be closed and open transfer from fermenter to keg.
 
I am bottling these...two out of my three batches seem to oxidize or at least brown faster than I am used to. Those two had higher dry hopping rates than the other. My problem has not been loss of hop flavor but too vegetal, overhopped flavor. I am planning to back off the high dry hop rates somewhat, but keeping other things, flaked grains, salts, etc. and see if it improves. Its interesting people recently talking about LoDO as crucial when in the past I've bottled good hoppy IPA's that didn't really seem to suffer from oxidation at all. Something about the extra dry hops for me that is giving me grief. I've also wondered, when I am using Conan I tend to keep the ferm temps higher to ensure it finishes out and I wonder if I am applying "extra aging" compared to you keggers who are doing dry hop #2 in the keg and getting it colder faster.

I add a massive dry hop addition to mine and use Conan and raise the temp as it finishes out. I don't see this as adding any kind of aging. Also, I have never keg hopped any beer I've brewed. I do however make damn sure to eliminate any exposure to oxygen that I can. It's critical.
 
Another factor could be closed and open transfer from fermenter to keg.

Yah that's one of the "other" things that would have to be normalized. It would be a monumental experiment for sure. The LoDO guys state the volume of regular atmospheric air in a shot glass is more than enough to raise the DO of an entire 5G keg above what is generally considered to be too high.

The krux of the LoDO cold side process is to take advantage of yeast's natural O2 scavenging during active fermentation. For lagers they suggest you transfer into a liquid purged keg, using a closed system, and with remaining fermentation extract (4-6 points).

For an IPA that's a lot harder because you need to introduce dry hops and then rack off the dry hops. So the best solution i've come up with is to add dry hops with ~4 points remaining.... let those soak a few days until you reach FG, then rack to serving keg, then open the lid and add priming sugar, then seal and purge as normal (say 4-5 purge cycles with tank CO2). Let stand at room temp for 2 weeks, then chill, and drink the next day.
 
Made this today for the 4th or 5th time. Have been using just citra/mosaic in the past.

Running out of both....so today went with a Citra/Mosaic/Amarillo combo for the brew day additions.

However, now debating what to do for dry hop. Totally out of citra and mosaic. Have a TON of Amarillo (like 3 lbs) in hand, so originally just planned to dry hop with that. But also realized I had some Columbus.

Would you dry hop with Columbus? Amarillo? Or both?
 
Made this today for the 4th or 5th time. Have been using just citra/mosaic in the past.

Running out of both....so today went with a Citra/Mosaic/Amarillo combo for the brew day additions.

However, now debating what to do for dry hop. Totally out of citra and mosaic. Have a TON of Amarillo (like 3 lbs) in hand, so originally just planned to dry hop with that. But also realized I had some Columbus.

Would you dry hop with Columbus? Amarillo? Or both?


columbus is great as dry hop just add less than amarillo
 
Made this today for the 4th or 5th time. Have been using just citra/mosaic in the past.

Running out of both....so today went with a Citra/Mosaic/Amarillo combo for the brew day additions.

However, now debating what to do for dry hop. Totally out of citra and mosaic. Have a TON of Amarillo (like 3 lbs) in hand, so originally just planned to dry hop with that. But also realized I had some Columbus.

Would you dry hop with Columbus? Amarillo? Or both?


Agree with stickyfinger. Go something like 4:1 Amarillo:Columbus if you can and don't add Columbus to age awhile or as a keg hop. I've done it and it starts peppery then goes to garlic and onion and overpowers everything.
 
I add a massive dry hop addition to mine and use Conan and raise the temp as it finishes out. I don't see this as adding any kind of aging. Also, I have never keg hopped any beer I've brewed. I do however make damn sure to eliminate any exposure to oxygen that I can. It's critical.

And you are bottling? That is great. Are you doing anything with CO2 to prevent oxygen exposure?
 
Yah that's one of the "other" things that would have to be normalized. It would be a monumental experiment for sure. The LoDO guys state the volume of regular atmospheric air in a shot glass is more than enough to raise the DO of an entire 5G keg above what is generally considered to be too high.

The krux of the LoDO cold side process is to take advantage of yeast's natural O2 scavenging during active fermentation. For lagers they suggest you transfer into a liquid purged keg, using a closed system, and with remaining fermentation extract (4-6 points).

For an IPA that's a lot harder because you need to introduce dry hops and then rack off the dry hops. So the best solution i've come up with is to add dry hops with ~4 points remaining.... let those soak a few days until you reach FG, then rack to serving keg, then open the lid and add priming sugar, then seal and purge as normal (say 4-5 purge cycles with tank CO2). Let stand at room temp for 2 weeks, then chill, and drink the next day.

If you want to be anti o2 to the max. Put priming solution in the serving keg first, purge the keg, then closed transfer onto it.
 
I wanted to chime in just to say that I think my batch is showing signs of oxidation. It's definitely getting darker. I bottle.

Has anyone bottled this beer and maintained the bright yellow, juicy color? If so, I'd love to hear any tips for reducing oxidation.

Was thinking about bottling directly from the carboy by using conditioning pellets in each bottle to avoid the bottling bucket transfer.

I don't have any CO2. What's the smallest/cheapest way to buy it? No current plans to have a kegerator.
 
If you want to be anti o2 to the max. Put priming solution in the serving keg first, purge the keg, then closed transfer onto it.

I don't know if you're right, but how do you know that:

1 - a keg filled with air, then filled with priming solution, then purged

is any better than

2 - a water purged keg, with beer racked into it, then the lid opened, and priming solution added.

My gut tells me #2 would actually be less exposed because the head space is so much less. This is exactly the type of claim that need to be vetted. Does it even matter if you keg condition??
 
I don't know if you're right, but how do you know that:

1 - a keg filled with air, then filled with priming solution, then purged

is any better than

2 - a water purged keg, with beer racked into it, then the lid opened, and priming solution added.

My gut tells me #2 would actually be less exposed because the head space is so much less. This is exactly the type of claim that need to be vetted. Does it even matter if you keg condition??

I agree with you about #2. I think the point of keg conditioning was to remove that final "shot glass of air" worth of O2 though metabolism.
 
I'm looking to make a dank IPA with Columbus, Apollo, and simco or equinox. has any one tried this with this base? With the goal of making it dank and not juicy, would I be just better off with the traditional dry west coast set up?
 
I'm looking to make a dank IPA with Columbus, Apollo, and simco or equinox. has any one tried this with this base? With the goal of making it dank and not juicy, would I be just better off with the traditional dry west coast set up?


Columbus, Apollo, and Simcoe would fall in line with Heady's speculated hops so you'd still have a great East Coast style. Pearl Malt and maybe Caramalt with Conan would work well with the water profiles in this thread.
 
In regard to the LoDO brewing ..... I am "familiar" with the concept and I whole-heartedly agree that O2 is bad news for beer. I have not looked into a lot of the recent LoDO home brewing strategies.... well, simply because I haven't had time.
I guess my number one question would be this -

Are people getting their home brew tested for DO before/during/after these procedures are put in place? I would be curious to see actual lab results.

If they are not getting their beer tested for comparison of DO at various stages using various strategies..... how do they actually know any of it works, and to what extent? The idea that "I, personally, can tell the difference with my beer"....is extraordinarily unreliable.

I get it at the commercial scale where the equipment can accomplish these procedures, and actually measure data accurately - but, at the homebrew scale - is that really being done?

Again - not to say that O2 is not worth worrying about. It absolutely is. There are lots of places to eliminate and reduce O2. It absolutely can and will ruin beer. But, I wonder about the actual "measurable" difference in some of this.

I hope @Brulosopher tackles some of this from both the anecdotal perspective of "can people taste a difference" and from the perspective of actual lab results. It would be really interesting and informative. At what point do we move from solid, simple steps that reduce O2 easily and makes a difference..... to the point where we are going to extraordinary measures that result in no perceivable or measurable differences (based on actual testing and data collection, as opposed to "my beer tasted better to me."
 
I wanted to chime in just to say that I think my batch is showing signs of oxidation. It's definitely getting darker. I bottle.

Has anyone bottled this beer and maintained the bright yellow, juicy color? If so, I'd love to hear any tips for reducing oxidation.

Was thinking about bottling directly from the carboy by using conditioning pellets in each bottle to avoid the bottling bucket transfer.

I don't have any CO2. What's the smallest/cheapest way to buy it? No current plans to have a kegerator.

I would highly advise purging each bottle with C02 prior to filling it.
 
I know you can get great tasting IPA that lasts for at least 6 wks in the keg with excellent flavor. I have done that with racking using a racking cane into a keg that has been completely purged of sanitizer by CO2. I've never tasted a bottle conditioned IPA that is as good as kegged Doesn't mean it can't be done I suppose.

It would be great to see if more can be done for us keggers post-fermentation. I can't imagine having a better tasting IPA up to the point where we are about to keg. If I could keep that flavor for more weeks, it would be great. Has anyone tested keg-conditioning IPA vs force carbonating? Right away I'd notice that you are losing 1-2 weeks of prime drinking, waiting for it to carbonate. Maybe the active yeast make up for that lost time on the other end?
 
I don't know if you're right, but how do you know that:

1 - a keg filled with air, then filled with priming solution, then purged

is any better than

2 - a water purged keg, with beer racked into it, then the lid opened, and priming solution added.

My gut tells me #2 would actually be less exposed because the head space is so much less. This is exactly the type of claim that need to be vetted. Does it even matter if you keg condition??

I should have added that the serving keg is purged before I add the priming solution. I fill the keg full of sanatizer and pump it out with co2 via picnic tap. So now it's full of co2. Then I'll open the top, add the solution and purge the keg, several times. Then I'll close transfer the beer into it with a jumper.
 
In regard to the LoDO brewing ..... I am "familiar" with the concept and I whole-heartedly agree that O2 is bad news for beer. I have not looked into a lot of the recent LoDO home brewing strategies.... well, simply because I haven't had time.
I guess my number one question would be this -

Are people getting their home brew tested for DO before/during/after these procedures are put in place? I would be curious to see actual lab results.

If they are not getting their beer tested for comparison of DO at various stages using various strategies..... how do they actually know any of it works, and to what extent? The idea that "I, personally, can tell the difference with my beer"....is extraordinarily unreliable.

I get it at the commercial scale where the equipment can accomplish these procedures, and actually measure data accurately - but, at the homebrew scale - is that really being done?

Again - not to say that O2 is not worth worrying about. It absolutely is. There are lots of places to eliminate and reduce O2. It absolutely can and will ruin beer. But, I wonder about the actual "measurable" difference in some of this.

I hope @Brulosopher tackles some of this from both the anecdotal perspective of "can people taste a difference" and from the perspective of actual lab results. It would be really interesting and informative. At what point do we move from solid, simple steps that reduce O2 easily and makes a difference..... to the point where we are going to extraordinary measures that result in no perceivable or measurable differences (based on actual testing and data collection, as opposed to "my beer tasted better to me."

Didn't mean to derail this thread.

People on the german brewing forum are using dissolved oxygen meters during every step of the process. They are focusing on minimizing oxygen uptake during every step which is admirable, but they are mainly focused on retaining malt character.

From reading a lot of their info, LoDO seems out of reach for many brewers unless you are willing to rebuild your rig and measure along the way.

If we are adapting their methods, it should mainly be for our process during and after fermentation. Fermenting in sealed corny kegs, spunding, sealed transfers, etc.

A theory I'm kicking around is the use of brett either for 100% of fermentation, or added after, in order to scavenge as much excess O2 as possible to prolong shelf life. Fruity brett stains, especially under pressure, can amplify the tropical aromas and flavors we want from NEIPA. So what if we can boost the juicy character we desire and keep that flavor alive longer?

A year or so ago I did a NEIPA with a blend of 1318 and Brett C which was really tasty. The flavor kept changing during the life of the keg, but not in the normal staling kind of way. The 1318 faded and the C kind of took over. Of course if we are finishing these kegs in less than a month, brett won't have enough time to turn from fruity to funky (hopefully).
 
As a guy who only bottles and has been brewing these NEIPA's I've done everything I can to reduce O2 exposure and from what I've found is the beers are basically done after a month meaning they lose hop character and start to turn the brown color which is obvious of oxidation. I never had an issue with oxidation until i started brewing these really hoppy beers with low floccing yeast and higher flaked grains until I started brewing these beers. So I thing there's def something that correlates to the amount of hops and yeast in suspension that also acdepts the 02 at various points and it ruins the beer faster. Case in point I make a apa kinda a blonde grain bill but hop it up to 55 Ibu no hopstand and a minimal dry hop and that thing lasts for 2 months and is crystal clear with no off flavor a but yet my hoppy me style IPAs with big hop stands and dry hops last a month before they change. There's def evidence that I've seen that o2 somehow binds to the hop matter and yeast in suspension faster than a lower Ibu hopped beer.
 
I'm looking to make a dank IPA with Columbus, Apollo, and simco or equinox. has any one tried this with this base? With the goal of making it dank and not juicy, would I be just better off with the traditional dry west coast set up?

i do this combo alot and love it. Columbus, apollo, simcoe and usually mosaic, gives me heavy dank, some melon and a touch of tropical. It goes well with Conan. I cant speak for other strains. sometimes ill throw in citra if i want a brighter passion fruit hop punch.
 
How do you liquid purge with shortened diptubes?

I only liquid purge the serving keg. The fermentation vessel doesn't matter.

For anyone wanting a visual, here's how my process works. I think this is the easiest way to get low oxygen and EASY to rack kegging set up. Kegs are cheap ($50) and highly pressure capable, so i think they are the ideal fermentation vessel.

Step 1: Turn a standard corny keg into 1 of each a Fermentation Vesssel (FV) and Serving Keg (SK).
cornyferm1.png

To make the FV all you do is bend the liquid dip tube to reach the side wall of the keg. This should put you about an inch off the bottom so you'll avoid all the yeast. You can refine the amount of bend after a few brews.

For both an SK and FV you cut the GAS dip tube flush with the inside of the keg. This equates to removing approx 1/2" of the dip tube. The gas dip tube is nothing more than an o-ring holder. For the FV, shortening this by 1/2" gives you even more head space, which equals another 1-2 beers into the SK. For lagers i can fill the keg up past the top weld and have 0 blow off.

Step 2: Water purge the SK
This is easier than it sounds.

Clean the SK with PBW or whatever. Starsan is optional. Fill the SK to the brim with water, then install the lid with PRV closed. Install a gas disconnect to the gas side, and liquid disconnect to the liquid side. The liquid side should be connected to a water source.

Tilt the SK to a 45 degree angle with the gas port on the top. Slowly fill the remaining portion of the keg with water until it starts squirting out the gas disconnect. Rock the keg around a few more times to ensure all the bubbles are out. The lid in a corny is a HUGE gas pocket, that's why you are tilting it AND shortening the gas dip tube. Pull the PRV up to get the last of the air out and then close it again. Simultaneosly pull off the liquid and gas QD. You now have a keg 99.99% full of water.

Use commercial CO2 to push all the water out of the liquid dip tube. You now have a keg 99.98% full of CO2.


Step 3: Ferment
cornyferm3.png

Add yeast and a few psi of pressure to the kegs. You need this pressure to keep the lid sealed. Set spunding valve to match. I like about 3.5 psi, but you could experiment here.

The idea of this set up is that you use all of the fermentation gas to continue to purge the serving keg.

Bonus: The added head pressure collapses the kraussen bubbles. My lager fermentations max at 1cm of kraussen, meaning i can nearly fill the keg tp capacity.

Step 4: Racking
cornyrack4.png

Another easy step. With a few gravity points to go (4-6 ideally)...

Purge the hoses you use in this step with gas saved in the SK (attach, use your finger or screwdriver to push the poppet).

Elevate the FV above the SK. Connect the 2 liquid ports together and if flow didn't already start, pull the PRV slightly on the SK. Beer will start to flow. Then connect the gas side together to equalize the head pressure.

Set timer for 30 minutes and walk away.

When you return you'll have the SK completely full and the FV empty. At this point i usually disconnect everything, and then top the pressure off in the kegs to ~5 psi to ensure a good lid seal. Then back to wherever to finish the last few points and naturally carbonate.

This is the process for lagers. For ales you can do the same if you're not dry hopping, but the timing is much less forgiving (you need to catch it within a half a day window). If you don't have enough remaining fermentable extract then you need to crack the lid and add some.

I normally don't re-install my spund valve at this point again, but i do monitor the pressure every few days to see where its at and when it stops rising.
 
From reading a lot of their info, LoDO seems out of reach for many brewers unless you are willing to rebuild your rig and measure along the way.

I didn't go out and drop a fortune on a DO meter to test every step. Does this mean my system isn't LoDO? No, but it means i can't quantitatively tell you how good it is at LoDO. I CAN say it's good enough, but when it comes to getting it even tighter i'm flying blind.

There are some qualitative benchmarks that you can sense though if you're doing it right:
1. The mash is 100% odorless. Everyone here knows the aroma of a mash standard mash. Well with LoDO if you can smell it, you aren't LoDo. It's devoid of all aroma.
2. The color of the beers are ~2 SRM less. My pilsner went from yellow to light straw without a recipe change. My marzen went from brown to copper.
3. The flavor of the wort is bright and sweet in a unique way. There is a honey like flavor if you are using a significant amount of pilsner malt or pale malt.

The biggest hurdle I see is that success is only as good as your weakest link. If you do LoDO hot side then skip on the cold side, you've wasted your time. You have to do it all; you can't piecemeal it.
 
I am on board with all of this and think its a great way to cut down on packaging O2 but how do you dryhop or more specifically keg hop? Dryhopping with points left in fermentation taste very different from a keg hop, as it seems more muted or blended. I guess you could leave a dry hop bag in the SK during ferment but I would think the aromatics would be washed away by the 125ish gallons of fermentation CO2. Maybe just spund the FK until it is reeeeal close to finished and the dry hop the SK and tie it to the FK?
 
Might be a dumb question, but when purging kegs before filling them what's the difference between filling the keg completely with water or sanitizer and pushing it out with co2 and taking an empty keg hooking it up to co2 letting it fill the keg and pull the release valve a few times?
 
Might be a dumb question, but when purging kegs before filling them what's the difference between filling the keg completely with water or sanitizer and pushing it out with co2 and taking an empty keg hooking it up to co2 letting it fill the keg and pull the release valve a few times?

Mixing. Air and CO2 mix a lot.

It takes 20+ purges at 30 psi to purge a keg well enough... which is a lot
 
Didn't mean to derail this thread.

A theory I'm kicking around is the use of brett either for 100% of fermentation, or added after, in order to scavenge as much excess O2 as possible to prolong shelf life. Fruity brett stains, especially under pressure, can amplify the tropical aromas and flavors we want from NEIPA. So what if we can boost the juicy character we desire and keep that flavor alive longer?

A year or so ago I did a NEIPA with a blend of 1318 and Brett C which was really tasty. The flavor kept changing during the life of the keg, but not in the normal staling kind of way. The 1318 faded and the C kind of took over. Of course if we are finishing these kegs in less than a month, brett won't have enough time to turn from fruity to funky (hopefully).

No worries about "derailing"...... This is good info and certainly worth looking into. Oxygen is certainly the enemy of this beer.

I brewed a couple Saisons at the end of the summer that I was a bit disappointed in. They ended up with some banana esters that I just hate. Nothing terrible - I just, personally, hate banana in my beer. So, I bottled it with Brett C.....
Beer was finished and carbed..... 1.005 FG
I added an additional 2/3 cup priming sugar boiled in cup of H2O to the keg.
Then, I used beer gun to bottle it.
Added 1ml or a bit less of Brett C to each bottle.
Capped and let them sit.

6-8 weeks later they are great. All of the banana ester is gone. Clean, dry, crisp, tart.... a bit of brett, but nothing major.

Would be interesting with this beer to try it.

My initial concern would be that it would "dry" it out.... but I bet it would still be great. Just maybe different.

I have another Saison sitting in a keg I plan to do the same thing to. I used Brett Trois in Primary and kegged it. I am going to bottle it with Brett C. I currently have 15 gallons of NE IPA - all the same - citra/galaxy .... different water profiles. Maybe I will also bottle off a dozen or so bottles with brett C just to check it out.
 
As a guy who only bottles and has been brewing these NEIPA's I've done everything I can to reduce O2 exposure and from what I've found is the beers are basically done after a month meaning they lose hop character and start to turn the brown color which is obvious of oxidation. I never had an issue with oxidation until i started brewing these really hoppy beers with low floccing yeast and higher flaked grains until I started brewing these beers. So I thing there's def something that correlates to the amount of hops and yeast in suspension that also acdepts the 02 at various points and it ruins the beer faster. Case in point I make a apa kinda a blonde grain bill but hop it up to 55 Ibu no hopstand and a minimal dry hop and that thing lasts for 2 months and is crystal clear with no off flavor a but yet my hoppy me style IPAs with big hop stands and dry hops last a month before they change. There's def evidence that I've seen that o2 somehow binds to the hop matter and yeast in suspension faster than a lower Ibu hopped beer.

Olotti this has been my experience as well, though I wonder if you didn't mean "lower IBU" but rather more hops in the boil, somewhat smaller dry hop? I think of some past extract clones that had double dry hops...pliny clone and heady topper clone, those had substantial double dry hops but both dry hops were added basically when ferment was done and I had no oxidation issues. I realize that the day3-6 dry hop is supposed to be part of the magic of these NEIPA's but I wonder if its problematic somehow under "normal" fermenting conditions without extra O2 control.
 
I brewed this on 11/6 and kegged it two weeks later on 11/20. I didn't have the equipment for a closed transfer, so I did what I could: I purged a keg with CO2, and then used my racking cane to fill the keg while covering the opening with a towel. Then I purged the keg when I was done.

I force carbed it and 24 hours later, this was the best beer I've ever made (40+ beers). I was drinking 3 a day and sharing it with everyone I could find. As soon as I opened the tap the room was filled with a hoppy, citrusy aroma.

About 11 days later, I started noticing around 12/1 that it was losing its aroma. It was still a great beer, but it wasn't the beer I was so excited and proud of on day 1. It's color hasn't changed, just the aroma.

This past weekend I brewed the exact same beer again (12/3). I'm planning on doing a closed transfer from primary to the serving keg this time. I'm hoping that a closed transfer will preserve the beer longer than 11 days.

What kind of shelf life are other people seeing? I'll be sure to report back on my open vs closed transfer experiment.

IMG_5409_1.jpg
 
I brewed this on 11/6 and kegged it two weeks later on 11/20. I didn't have the equipment for a closed transfer, so I did what I could: I purged a keg with CO2, and then used my racking cane to fill the keg while covering the opening with a towel. Then I purged the keg when I was done.

I force carbed it and 24 hours later, this was the best beer I've ever made (40+ beers). I was drinking 3 a day and sharing it with everyone I could find. As soon as I opened the tap the room was filled with a hoppy, citrusy aroma.

About 11 days later, I started noticing around 12/1 that it was losing its aroma. It was still a great beer, but it wasn't the beer I was so excited and proud of on day 1. It's color hasn't changed, just the aroma.

This past weekend I brewed the exact same beer again (12/3). I'm planning on doing a closed transfer from primary to the serving keg this time. I'm hoping that a closed transfer will preserve the beer longer than 11 days.

What kind of shelf life are other people seeing? I'll be sure to report back on my open vs closed transfer experiment.

Awesome that the beer turned out well for you.

The biggest obstacle to shelf life for me remains my friends, my wife and myself:) I rarely have a keg that sees 5-6 weeks from brew day.

However, that said, I have found the following:
Weeks 1 and 2 = Fermentaition/Dry hopping
Week 3 = Kegging/Carbonating/Sampling - beer tastes great as soon as it is carbed.
Week 4 = Beer is in its prime
Week 5 = Beer is very good, but maybe not as good as last week
Week 6 = well..... this just does not happen much, as the kegs are almost always gone by now. But when it does, I would say the beer starts taking on more of a "pale ale" characteristic. Still good, but not the big tropical punch and full/smooth/rounded body that it previously had.
 
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