New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[ihavenonickname]

Has anyone tried the Fiden’s Jasper clone?


1.075 OG
1.015 FG
5 gallons

11.25 lb Rahr pale
2.2 lb flaked oats
12 oz golden promise
0.35 oz Citra at 60
6.2 oz Citra at WP (175F 20 mins)
8 oz Citra DH
Mash at 155
Ferment at 68


I’m thinking of modifying the recipe a bit and scale to 6.75 gal, and make it a little smaller abv. What do you guys think?
1.066 OG
1.013 FG
54 IBU

8.5 lbs flaked oats
8 lb rahr 2 row
1 lb golden promise
100% RO
11 g CaCl (split between mash and boil)
4.5 g gypsum
7.4 g epsom salt
0.35 oz Citra lupomax at 60
7 oz Citra lupomax at WP 175 F, 20 min
A24 dry hop at 68 F
DH1: 5 oz Citra after dropping yeast at 55 F, rouse with co2
DH2: 4 oz Citra lupomax at 50 F, rouse with co2

Yeah sounds great. I like your changes, fits my tastes. My thoughts: I’ve done all cryo beers that I thought lacked structure and hop flavor from having some t90. So I’d mix in some t90 to your all lupomax. Also, if you feel pretty good about your co2 rouse getting good extraction then I would put all the dry hops in at once. Rousing a few times get the extraction out (I think) better than spread out DH dosing. Have you used 50% flaked oats before? I have not so can’t comment. But I’ve used 40 or so percent malted oats before and that worked quite well.

 

[Dgallo]

Has anyone tried the Fiden’s Jasper clone?


1.075 OG
1.015 FG
5 gallons

11.25 lb Rahr pale
2.2 lb flaked oats
12 oz golden promise
0.35 oz Citra at 60
6.2 oz Citra at WP (175F 20 mins)
8 oz Citra DH
Mash at 155
Ferment at 68


I’m thinking of modifying the recipe a bit and scale to 6.75 gal, and make it a little smaller abv. What do you guys think?
1.066 OG
1.013 FG
54 IBU

8.5 lbs flaked oats
8 lb rahr 2 row
1 lb golden promise
100% RO
11 g CaCl (split between mash and boil)
4.5 g gypsum
7.4 g epsom salt
0.35 oz Citra lupomax at 60
7 oz Citra lupomax at WP 175 F, 20 min
A24 dry hop at 68 F
DH1: 5 oz Citra after dropping yeast at 55 F, rouse with co2
DH2: 4 oz Citra lupomax at 50 F, rouse with co2

I personally would keep the Oat to 30-35% and switch it from flaked to malted

 

[Mjpetrag]

I personally would keep the Oat to 30-35% and which it from flaked to malted

Why is that? I’ve used both but flaked typically gives a lighter color. Also why not higher % oats?

 

[Mjpetrag]

Yeah sounds phenomenal. I like all your changes, fits my tastes. My thoughts. I’ve done all cryo beers that I thought lacked structure and hop flavor from having some t90. So I’d mix in some t90 to your all lupomax. Also, if you feel pretty good about your co2 rouse getting good extraction then I would put all the dry hops in at once. Rousing a few times get the extraction out (I think) better than spread out DH dosing. Have you used 50% flaked oats before? I have not so can’t comment. But I’ve used 40 or so percent malted oats before and that worked quite well.

Good points - I will switch to some regular Citra in the hot side. I like to double dry hop solely for the purpose of layering the dry hop flavor at different temps. 55 F gives more fruitiness in my experience and around 50 F starts to pull more dank flavor. When the beer warms up the aroma is really complex and quite nice.

I’ve used 45-50% flaked with good results and just take an efficiency hit

 

[Dgallo]

Why is that? I’ve used both but flaked typically gives a lighter color. Also why not higher % oats?

Flaked oats are much higher in manganese(malting/germination uses most of it up) which is highly susceptible to oxidizing. So by increasing the percentage you increase the risk.

Additionally, since flaked oats are unmalted, their protein chains are unaltered and longer which gives them more molecular weight. Greater molecular weight causes more clearing, making for unstable haze and causes the deteriorating effect on the mouthfeel.

Besides almost certainly having a miserable time draining the mash and sparge, the last point of the deteriorating mouthfeel occurs regardless of malted/flaked above 40%. It’s a case of more does not correlate with its better. Also, I’ve experienced a drop in 5-7% efficiency when going that high with oats. It will also taste “oaty”

It’s your beer, so obviously do what you’d like, but I am currently settled on;
70% 2row
30% Malted oats

Or

70% 2row
20% spelt
10% malted oats.

And my beers are very similar to Fiden’s. Idk if your part of the Fiden’s: Enthusiast FB group but I’m currently able to trade my Homebrew 1 : 1 on there for fiden’s

 

[Mjpetrag]

Solid. I’ve heard of the manganese issue but haven’t experienced it in practice.

I think I’ll change my recipe around and see how it goes.

What is your dry hop process/temps?

 

[Andre3000]

Flaked oats are much higher in manganese(malting/germination uses most of it up) which is highly susceptible to oxidizing. So by increasing the percentage you increase the risk.

Additionally, since flaked oats are unmalted, their protein chains are unaltered and longer which gives them more molecular weight. Greater molecular weight causes more clearing, making for unstable haze and causes the deteriorating effect on the mouthfeel.

Besides almost certainly having a miserable time draining the mash and sparge, the last point of the deteriorating mouthfeel occurs regardless of malted/flaked above 40%. It’s a case of more does not correlate with its better. Also, I’ve experienced a drop in 5-7% efficiency when going that high with oats. It will also taste “oaty”

It’s your beer, so obviously do what you’d like, but I am currently settled on;
70% 2row
30% Malted oats

Or

70% 2row
20% spelt
10% malted oats.

And my beers are very similar to Fiden’s. Idk if your part of the Fiden’s: Enthusiast FB group but I’m currently able to trade my Homebrew 1 : 1 on there for fiden’s

This and more.

Once you go malted oats, you'll never go back. My only complaint is they don't mill that great since the grain is long and narrow relative to wheat and 2-row. I don't use a tight mill gap so instead of milling I just give them a few pulses in the Vitamix. Works well.

 

[Dgallo]

This and more.

Once you go malted oats, you'll never go back. My only complaint is they don't mill that great since the grain is long and narrow relative to wheat and 2-row. I don't use a tight mill gap so instead of milling I just give them a few pulses in the Vitamix. Works well.

I had luck mixing the malted oats the best I can with the base grain and then double milling.

 

[agentbud]

I had luck mixing the malted oats the best I can with the base grain and then double milling.

What setting do you have your mill set to?

 

[Dgallo]

What setting do you have your mill set to?

Off the top of my head I think it’s 0.34

 

[TBA]

By malted oats do you mean Golden Naked Oats?

 

[Mjpetrag]

By malted oats do you mean Golden Naked Oats?

Pretty sure it’s fawcett oat malt

 

[Dgallo]

By malted oats do you mean Golden Naked Oats?

No, I mean oat malt or malted oat.

Golden naked oats are a crystal 10L oat malt. If you use that, I would suggest not surpassing 5%

 

[Apmarand]

No, I mean oat malt or malted oat.

Golden naked oats are a crystal 10L oat malt. If you use that, I would suggest not surpassing 5%

I would agree for anything over 6ish % abv. Pale ales benefit from the added complexity/sweetness, in my hands. Still wouldn’t go above 10%…

 

[Dgallo]

I would agree for anything over 6ish % abv. Pale ales benefit from the added complexity/sweetness, in my hands. Still wouldn’t go above 10%…

I’d be far more apt to use some Vienna, Munich, Caramunich, in a pale before gno but everyone has their preference

 

[Mjpetrag]

Dgallo - what does your dry hop process look like?

 

[Dgallo]

Dgallo - what does your dry hop process look like?

Anti o2, Soft crashing, positive pressure (2 psi). Then anywhere from 50-60 depending on the hop varieties

 

[aaronm13]

Looking at doing a Yakima Valley order over the next few days and wondering is there anymore updates on their 2022 Nelson? Remember a few pages back some saying it wasn't great. They still have 2021 in stock so wondering should I just stick to that. Also is their 22 Galaxy bad? Any new experimental hops worth checking out? Would like to try something new and interesting.

 

[Dgallo]

Looking at doing a Yakima Valley order over the next few days and wondering is there anymore updates on their 2022 Nelson? Remember a few pages back some saying it wasn't great. They still have 2021 in stock so wondering should I just stick to that. Also is their 22 Galaxy bad? Any new experimental hops worth checking out? Would like to try something new and interesting.

I haven’t heard anything from Nelson but I heard Galaxy was good. I ended up grabbing mosaic and Talus this week.

 

[Apmarand]

Looking at doing a Yakima Valley order over the next few days and wondering is there anymore updates on their 2022 Nelson? Remember a few pages back some saying it wasn't great. They still have 2021 in stock so wondering should I just stick to that. Also is their 22 Galaxy bad? Any new experimental hops worth checking out? Would like to try something new and interesting.

I bought two pounds from YVH and have a DIPA on the books this weekend featuring 2022 Nelson (along side Strata, Citra, and HBC586). Also hoping it’s not a bust… if it’s as good as 2021, I’ll be happy. Hoping for more white grape and less diesel this time around. I haven’t opened the bags yet.

 

[Ulisses4677]

Galaxy is great so is Nelson. I recently purchased 2022 Nectaron from northwest hop farms out of BC. Haven’t used it yet but I have high expectations.

 

[Apmarand]

Galaxy is great so is Nelson. I recently purchased 2022 Nectaron from northwest hop farms out of BC. Haven’t used it yet but I have high expectations.

Nice find - I haven’t seen Nectaron anywhere.. Let us know how it is

 

[aaronm13]

Galaxy is great so is Nelson. I recently purchased 2022 Nectaron from northwest hop farms out of BC. Haven’t used it yet but I have high expectations.

Good to know, thanks. I'll add them to my order. Still hesitant with Galaxy as I must have about 25oz of the 2020 crop in my freezer that's junk. Can't bring myself to use it.

 

[Apmarand]

Good to know, thanks. I'll add them to my order. Still hesitant with Galaxy as I must have about 25oz of the 2020 crop in my freezer that's junk. Can't bring myself to use it.

FWIW, I’ve been using all my suspect hops in the whirlpool without issue. YMMV

 

[aaronm13]

FWIW, I’ve been using all my suspect hops in the whirlpool without issue. YMMV

That's a good idea. One way of chipping away at the stock. This Galaxy is just so bad, seems pointless using it. I got 16oz of it from Yakima at the time, I complained how bad it was and they sent me another 16oz of it that was just slightly better but still not was Galaxy used to be.

 

[Apmarand]

That's a good idea. One way of chipping away at the stock. This Galaxy is just so bad, seems pointless using it. I got 16oz of it from Yakima at the time, I complained how bad it was and they sent me another 16oz of it that was just slightly better but still not was Galaxy used to be.

Bad in what way? Onion/garlic or cheese? If it’s just a lack of tropical character, then I’d whirlpool. I’ve had to toss hops that had a cheesy quality to them, I can attest that anything closely resembling parmesan flavor will ruin an IPA

 

[aaronm13]

Bad in what way? Onion/garlic or cheese? If it’s just a lack of tropical character, then I’d whirlpool. I’ve had to toss hops that had a cheesy quality to them, I can attest that anything closely resembling parmesan flavor will ruin an IPA

A real strong vegetal smell and zero tropical fruit aroma. I had a small amount of 2019 Galaxy left and I compared the two and it was night and day. The 19 batch was pure passionfruit.

 

[Apmarand]

A real strong vegetal smell and zero tropical fruit aroma. I had a small amount of 2019 Galaxy left and I compared the two and it was night and day. The 19 batch was pure passionfruit.

I don’t think it’ll hurt in the WP, but I would definitely use it as a minor proportion. That’s a bummer

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Bad in what way? Onion/garlic or cheese? If it’s just a lack of tropical character, then I’d whirlpool. I’ve had to toss hops that had a cheesy quality to them, I can attest that anything closely resembling parmesan flavor will ruin an IPA

Welll.. cheesy implies short-chain acids which aren't good in themselves but which are the building blocks for all sorts of interesting esters if you let yeast play with them. So you don't want to dry hop with them, but potentially a little bit in the whirlpool could be a good thing.

 

[Apmarand]

Welll.. cheesy implies short-chain acids which aren't good in themselves but which are the building blocks for all sorts of interesting esters if you let yeast play with them. So you don't want to dry hop with them, but potentially a little bit in the whirlpool could be a good thing.

I totally understand where you are coming from. I just read a paper from BrewingScience (Takoi, 2019) that showed transformation of cheesy fatty acids like isovaleric acid & 2-methylbutyric into fruity esters ethyl isovalerate & ethyl 2-methylbutyrate, respectively, from a lager strain. Apparently Brett is really good at this. I haven't read anything about cerevisiae.

However, my experience (I was clearing out inventory in a pale ale - mosaic, can't remember the crop year), was horrible. For me, the math is simple: I'd rather lose $15 of hops than a 10G batch and requisite time cost. A challenge I'm personally experiencing is that many scientific findings don't often translate well in practice. That's not to say they're wrong; there are a lot of variables that aren't well understood. Hence the need for more research to build a more comprehensive picture. Differences in process coupled with biological heterogeneity in yeast/hops likely explains a majority of the variance if I had to guess.